On Dissidia Duodecim

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Pyre1million

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Mar 23, 2008
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Also, question: is anyone else who's playing having trouble with dashing? Every time I try to dash from the ground, no matter the object I'm trying to dash at (enemy, EX Core, building, etc.)the ground dash activates, but once I reach an edge I immediately fall. Regardless of the target, a grounded character NEVER dashes off the ground.

This is especially annoying in the case of Ex Cores, as the opponent has nothing resembling the same problem. Is there a trick to this?

I'm also noticing the nerfed aerial movement has, as I feared, made navigating stages at all much harder.
 

-Seraph-

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I tend to just take a quick hop and do air dash instead if I'm going for an EX core. If I do a ground dash and reach a ledge, I just quickly do a dash again and it just translates to an air dash, no problems really.

Air movement got nerfed. Air dodges have longer recovery frames, everyone falls like a rock, no jump resets, Omni air dash and all the other dashes are the same speed I think. So The super fast air dashes have been slowed down because before people would just spam it and it was just hell to hit people at all. I do wonder if multi air slide got a speed nerf, I always found it a rather useful ability.

And again, dodging towards someone doesn't always mean you get it, some attacks don't have the verticle reach to get you. i have no idea why you would EVER try to overhead dodge meteorain, that's just asking for trouble. Just a matter of learning the properties of each attack and reacting accordingly.

Hells great is pretty easy to dodge with an overhead or the safer rout, side/reverse dodge. If you're on the ground, the CPU tends to go for the ground slam and so it's jsut dodging before it hit. If he tries the air cancel, it's the same deal if not a tad trickier. Needless to say I've only gotten caught in it once.
 

Pyre1million

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Mar 23, 2008
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Because in the original Dissidia a forward dodge was one of the safest ways to avoid Meteor Rain. Dodging forward was also one of the best possible strategies when confronting Chaos while he used the forward fire-wave attack - the dodge took you safely through and left you in an ideal position to counter. Having this removed as an option not only utterly alters strategies against many characters, but it further establishes the problem (and it is a problem) that now some moves can ONLY be dodged by picking a very specific direction to move in, that you may flat-out be incapable of doing.

Yes, Air movement got nerfed. My point is that the game suffers from it, rather badly, because now navigating the stages at all is made significantly more difficult, when it wasn't that easy to begin with.

The idea that in order to get airborne you have to hop up first is just...well, yet another poor design decision, to put it gently. The huge lag between any attack in the air and then being able to dash is crippling, as is the lag generated by having to hit dash again to move once you start to plummet from a ledge.

Never found multi-air slide to be useful, as there was no discernible way to control it, and it tended to ruin the direction one was trying to go.

Overall, so far Duodecim seems...tremendously less accessible to play. Even for someone used to fighting games, the various gameplay changes seem to have largely served to make the game needlessly difficult, aggravating, or boring. It's like they lost something important to the engine in the transition somewhere, though I can't place what just yet.
 

-Seraph-

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A lot of the problems you state seem to be of you're own doing. Of the dozens upon dozens of other people I have heard from, and the competitive community, none of these are real design faults at all.

The game changes are all for the better and make for a more balanced system, and your complaints about the dash requirements being poor design choices is total nonsense. The game needs a means of discerning ground dash from air dash, if you don't like it, unequip ground dash and you'll be fine.

Dodging in this game is no different than in the previous, a lot of what you said about the dodge doesn't hold up. A lot of the same dodge strategies still apply. Dodging over meteorian was stupid to begin with because of the initial casting at the beginning, it's always been a move best side dodging.

The nerfed air game is for the better because it means less battles being 70% air time and less advantage for air fighters. The first game heavily favored air combat and ground fighters got the shaft making it harder for them to hold their own against the areal characters.

Navigating stages is fine, stop relying on only dashing and remember that there are grind rails and walls. There are plenty of means to navigate the environment fine. The time it takes to do a hop and do a dash is so tiny and insignificant its not worth worrying about.

None of these changes hamper the game in the grand scheme of things, you would not believe how many players praise these changes for the best. Save for the chase system which admittedly is hit or miss for people, everything else is an improvement.
 

Pyre1million

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Mar 23, 2008
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Still working on dodges to try and see if the problems are as bad as they seem or my own doing. Trying to apply proper scientific methoding to it. One problem that MAY be giving me trouble is that my PSP is actually starting to break - the analog stick is registering directions I'm not actually pushing (such as when I'm not touching it at all and the character is running sideways). Unfortunately this means I'll have to get it fixed before I can be sure about that.

Regarding navigation, let's use an example. Take a stage from the first game, be it Ultimecia's Castle or the Rift, as they were and remains the worse for this. In the original game, when an EX core would appear on these stages and you went for it, it was completely possible, indeed likely, that you could get stuck between a ledge/ underneath the platform you wanted to be on.

No amount of rail-grinding or wall-running would help in these situations - at best using those tactics you could run around the obstacles in question (in Ultimecia's Castle, anyway), but this meant your opponent would always get to the core before you. Thanks to the aerial mechanics though, you could dodge backwards until you were at a better angle, and retry the dash.

This simply isn't possible in Duodecim. Thanks to the alterations to aerial movement, if you find yourself caught under a platform in the Rift, there is no way to reach the top of the platform at all - you're forced to drop, accept the Brave trap, and let the opponent get the EX core. This can be mitigated by things like Omnidirectional Air Dash, and presumably abilities accessed in the full game that shorten the crippling lag between dodges, or anything else and dodges, but without those it leaves a character unable to successfully navigate a level in certain situations.

The prospect that a hop and a dash isn't worth worrying about is...simply wrong. I have already lost count of the number of times I've taken an attack combination because of the time it took to get airborne, or the excruciating lag between actions and dashing. This isn't a difficult fix, either: grounded targets cause a ground dash, while targets NOT on the ground, or hell, just on a plain above the character, cause an air dash. The idea that they couldn't code something so simple into the game is a bit difficult to swallow.

As to air superiority in the original Dissidia, while most combat did take place in the air I have seen little to no evidence in all the time I've spent playing the game that heavily air fighters had that much of an advantage. Please explain, exactly what approach or setup for Kuja could possibly make him intimidating just because he has better aerial mobility? He hits for so little damage, and takes damage so badly, that the only strategy I've ever seen that even approaches valid for him is to slowly chip away at an opponent whenever you manage to score a hit, largely due to luck. Zidane and Terra were high-end characters, but largely because of their attack options - Zidane comboed terrifyingly well, and Terra could readily assault anything from close to mid range with near impunity. I can think of at least one example where it was entirely possible to force an opponent to fight on the ground: Kefka's Hyperdrive was an excellent way to give the opponent little other choice in that regard.

Seriously, since part of the intent behind this thread is discussion, can you explain that? How Kuja, for example, can be made a legitimate mechanical threat to match the characters with better movesets, damage, and defense? (I already get part of how Terra can, as I make it a habit to abuse her Blizzara attack while airborne).
 

-Seraph-

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If your still hung up one how Kuja is a threat and how areal characters had the major advantage over ground based ones, I advise you go here: http://www.dissidiaforums.com/. Watch tournament vids, youtube fights, you WILL see that there is a major gap in character balance regarding the air combat.

Move sets and damage are but a part of a greater whole that define the character. Just sift through that site, and although I don't want to be rude, you will know how horribly wrong you are.
 

Pyre1million

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Mar 23, 2008
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Looking now. Four videos in and I've seen nothing to indicate Kuja is impressive or good at anything more than making opposing characters bounce around until they get close enough to annihilate him. Now moving to looking through tips on him in the forum in an attempt to find anything that backs up this claim. I already knew he had variety, but I've seen nothing so far to indicate any competent player can't handle and negate that variety. So I'll keep looking and mention it again when I find something to indicate what you're saying is correct.

Don't know that I have much else to contribute to this thread for the moment with that. Disliking the chase sequences strongly, loathing the way blocking, dodging, and even basic movement have been altered: overall just do not like the 'feel' of the game at all. Going to continue to play Prologus through to see if it eventually proves me wrong.

And, well...because c'mon, it's still Dissidia.
 

lapan

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Jan 23, 2009
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I have found it annoying how over half of the story mode is just a repeat of the previous games. Also i already had problems with the chase sequences in the old game, now it got even worse.
 

Hisshiss

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The chase sequences bothered me a bit when I first started playing, but that's really just because I misunderstood their indented purpose, in the first one they were bassicly quicktime events, in that if you payed attention you could always dodge them, thing is, the bots could too, so when fighting a strong one they ended in just these 20 second long stalements of lame.

The chases in Duodecim are alot different, the bravery attacks are nigh impossible to predict by vision, instead you just memorize the timing and dodge before they swing, of course doing this makes you unable to dodge an HP attack if they chose to do one, which is working as intended. Its a gamble now as opposed to a QTE, and its just generally faster meaning it wastes less of the fight.

The bot's chance to dodge attacks in chase is scaled down alot to compensate for this, to the point where Im actually getting more out of the chase mechanic than I did in the first one. it just took some practice.

Also if this is still relevant to anyone by this point seeing as the game has been out for a few days, the reason the guy who knows how many posts above me was dashing off of ledges was because he was using the new ground dash ability, which is auto equipped to all the characters in prolongus, its exactly the same as air dash, cept it doesnt go up, allows you to cancel out of it with ground abilities, and falls when you go off a ledge.

And I personally love it, cus now I can lolram people with cecil and squall and all those other characters with brutal point blank ground attacks, plus the lack of dashing was the only real reason I avoided the ground like the plague in the first one anyways, little down to earth beatdown is good for the soul.