On Exploration
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
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I'd actually like to have Morrowind/Oblivion added to the list - Exploration in Morrowind was fun, there were caves and interesting places, walking the land felt like actually journeying, and there were adventures to be had everywhere - in oblivion on the other hand, stuff to explore just appears on your map, even if you run past it, and no one goes anywhere, because you can always quick travel 
I agree with this completely. Exploration is one of my favorite things in any game that offers it and it always adds a lot to the immersive-ness and character of a game's environment.
One game that wasn't mentioned in which I particularly enjoy exploration for its own sake is Skies of Arcadia, which featured such a wide variety of interesting places and objects to discover (often with no gameplay benefits) that just sailing your flying pirate ship around afforded constant surprises.
As far as Wind Waker goes, I wouldn't have minded the long sailing times and annoying fish if there had been more interesting things to find, but exploration in that game leads to very few interesting, developed locations or things to do that aren't part of the main quest.
One game that wasn't mentioned in which I particularly enjoy exploration for its own sake is Skies of Arcadia, which featured such a wide variety of interesting places and objects to discover (often with no gameplay benefits) that just sailing your flying pirate ship around afforded constant surprises.
As far as Wind Waker goes, I wouldn't have minded the long sailing times and annoying fish if there had been more interesting things to find, but exploration in that game leads to very few interesting, developed locations or things to do that aren't part of the main quest.
I feel I should bring up something else that Yahtzee has said about exploration, particularly in sandbox games: that the exploration should be rewarded. I remember his Prototype review where he said of InFamous that exploring and doing sidequests had the purpose of cleaning up the city.
Then you have Metroid, where you are filling in the map, getting missile upgrades or whatever, and apparently flavor text.
Almost none of the above applies to SotC. You are technically filling out the map, but that map was of dubious value even when fully explored. There are no flavor rewards (though, from what I understand of defense arguments made about this, that was kind of the point) and the only available gameplay rewards are for someone who, for whatever arbitrary reason, decides to try to shoot fruit and lizards, and figure out how to pick them up. There is absolutely no indication that either of those activities will help you, and the ability to pick things up isn't even vaguely introduced until colossus 11 or so.
So I guess the questions are:
Where is the line between exploration and faffing about?
Is exploring (or faffing about) in pretty scenery rewarding and satisfying on its own? Even when there is minimal-to-no tangible benefits from it.
Then you have Metroid, where you are filling in the map, getting missile upgrades or whatever, and apparently flavor text.
Almost none of the above applies to SotC. You are technically filling out the map, but that map was of dubious value even when fully explored. There are no flavor rewards (though, from what I understand of defense arguments made about this, that was kind of the point) and the only available gameplay rewards are for someone who, for whatever arbitrary reason, decides to try to shoot fruit and lizards, and figure out how to pick them up. There is absolutely no indication that either of those activities will help you, and the ability to pick things up isn't even vaguely introduced until colossus 11 or so.
So I guess the questions are:
Where is the line between exploration and faffing about?
Is exploring (or faffing about) in pretty scenery rewarding and satisfying on its own? Even when there is minimal-to-no tangible benefits from it.
I agree with Yahtzee. Exploration is an integral part of any immersive game, or at least the feeling that the game world is larger than when the eye can see. Valve are great at this; They create (lets face it) really quite linear games however, it's what you can't see and what they hint to that makes you feel like a tiny pawn in a huge world.
For me Fallout 3 was partly what I dislike about some sandbox/exploration based games. I thought it was way too cookie cutter, grey/brown seen one-seen them all type exploration. Yes it had the occasional un expected mission or whatnot but it was all very similar (sue me).
If there isn't enough unique occurrences then it gets very boring very quickly.
For me Fallout 3 was partly what I dislike about some sandbox/exploration based games. I thought it was way too cookie cutter, grey/brown seen one-seen them all type exploration. Yes it had the occasional un expected mission or whatnot but it was all very similar (sue me).
If there isn't enough unique occurrences then it gets very boring very quickly.
Ahhh...exploration.
It seems as if the 90s games had this aspect in spades, because back then far fewer of them held the player by the hand from start to finish as much. And at the beginning of the 90s I still remember Star Control 2 - that game was ALL about exploration with a capital 'E'. I wish like hell we'd get a game like that these days though...not likely at all I guess.
It seems as if the 90s games had this aspect in spades, because back then far fewer of them held the player by the hand from start to finish as much. And at the beginning of the 90s I still remember Star Control 2 - that game was ALL about exploration with a capital 'E'. I wish like hell we'd get a game like that these days though...not likely at all I guess.
I'm witty, English and astonishingly handsome. Although that is part in parcel of being English.
Exploration is a simple subject that a lot of developers seem to cock up. Bigger isn't better, unless there's something actually in the world to explore. And I don't mean just the scenery, but things to find that aren't just mobs of enemies or more items. Games that really make me want to explore are ones that reward me with information and tid-bits about the world and its characters. Things that invest me into the world. Morrowinds a game that does this very well, rewarding you with books, stories and interesting places wrapped in culture and imagination. Everything tells the story, and the environments just as much a character as the characters themselves. That makes me want to keep playing, and makes me actually care.
MMOs are an example of a whole genre that really doesn't get this concept, and their massive, yet shitty, boring bland worlds make me want to gouge my eyes out rather then play them. Nine out of ten times there really isn't anything intriguing about the environments, or the way they man handle you in the direction of the next quest.
Anyway, I agree whole heartily with Mr Yahtzee, and Batman Arkham Asylum, Shadow of the Colossus and all the other games he mentioned were great because exploration and the environment had a little bit of personality pumped into them, instead of being bolted on as an afterthought.
Exploration is a simple subject that a lot of developers seem to cock up. Bigger isn't better, unless there's something actually in the world to explore. And I don't mean just the scenery, but things to find that aren't just mobs of enemies or more items. Games that really make me want to explore are ones that reward me with information and tid-bits about the world and its characters. Things that invest me into the world. Morrowinds a game that does this very well, rewarding you with books, stories and interesting places wrapped in culture and imagination. Everything tells the story, and the environments just as much a character as the characters themselves. That makes me want to keep playing, and makes me actually care.
MMOs are an example of a whole genre that really doesn't get this concept, and their massive, yet shitty, boring bland worlds make me want to gouge my eyes out rather then play them. Nine out of ten times there really isn't anything intriguing about the environments, or the way they man handle you in the direction of the next quest.
Anyway, I agree whole heartily with Mr Yahtzee, and Batman Arkham Asylum, Shadow of the Colossus and all the other games he mentioned were great because exploration and the environment had a little bit of personality pumped into them, instead of being bolted on as an afterthought.
I do quite like exploration, it's why I loved exploring Morrowind, the lack of a quest tracker(while cursing me to wander aimlessly from time to time attempting to find the proper place only to realise that I walked straight bloody past it without noticing...where was I? oh yeah) added to the sense of "Go look for it" rather than "It's thataway" with a big blip on the map pointing ye there, plus the lack of fast travel meant I had the choice of finding the nearest city, teleporting or doing some crazy jump or levitate that meant I could have lotsa fun exploring as I travelled... man I loved Morrowind
Completely, unequivocally, 100% agree with Yahtzee. The Exploration element within games, with rare exceptions, is atrophied. All of my favorite games involve some kind of exploration...and almost all of my disappointing experiences with MMORPGs come with pisspoor exploration design.
Well well well, who would've thunk it that I somehow would've gotten under Yahtzee's skin with such a harmless comment? I felt like I needed to respond so here I go. When I played the game I was unimpressed because there was no real story other than "Hey Princess Terri Schiavo's in a coma, go get her feeding tube by defeating 14 of the biggest monsters in this sacred land before the people chasing after you file an appeal that pulls the plug on Princess Schiavo's life support" or something like that.
Rather than building something around this, the game has you going out in a world filled with nothing (which I'll address in a moment), has you holding up your sword with the sunlight magically pointing you in the right direction and surprise surprise a boss fight ensues. You could argue that half the battle is getting to the fight itself but that's like saying half of the battle to fight hunger would be me traveling to the kitchen to finding the ingriedients to make myself a sandwich. Plus, the boss fight itself isn't all that enthralling seeing how you have to play American Gladiators getting up onto whatever Colossus, survive them doing the hokey pokey or whatever it is they do to try to shake you off for the most part, and nail them in their weak spot which they blantantly throw in your face.
That's how I thought the boss fights were lame. They were epic but they were also epically lame. So when you have stuff in the main part of the game that's terrible, you either do the side quest stuff or turn the game off and return it to the store to get credit towards hopefully a better game. The only side questy stuff here are the lizards that you have you painstakingly seek out just get your grip meter increased (which as Yahtzee pointed out, you kind of have to later on). It's like finding an ant in a world the size of Manhattan. Or you could do the other thing which is admire your surroundings. I didn't do either and basically gave up early on in the game because it wasn't that challenging. (Or you could get the useless bonus items like the parachute.)
You can't just have - wait wait, I'm sorry - IN MY OPINION, you can't just have a game based off of exploration alone. There has to be some other aspects in there to get me enticed to play it. It's like if GTA had a desolate city landscape with no other cars, no other people, just npc's for you to scope out on your own and defeat just to please the sky for whatever reason. Someone in this thread earlier (apologies for not getting your name) brought up BioShock and it's exploration. I liked how you could just travel around Rapture dicking about getting money, hypos, etc and just beating up stuff until you want to proceed with the story, much like any other sandbox'ish type world setting. So I'll end on this and say that SotC had probably one of the most terrible endings to a video game I've ever seen (at least the music was decent) and that I'm sorry Yahtzee that my comments took a dump in your Corn Flakes or Branston Pickle or whatever it is you eat but hey, that's opinions for ya.
Rather than building something around this, the game has you going out in a world filled with nothing (which I'll address in a moment), has you holding up your sword with the sunlight magically pointing you in the right direction and surprise surprise a boss fight ensues. You could argue that half the battle is getting to the fight itself but that's like saying half of the battle to fight hunger would be me traveling to the kitchen to finding the ingriedients to make myself a sandwich. Plus, the boss fight itself isn't all that enthralling seeing how you have to play American Gladiators getting up onto whatever Colossus, survive them doing the hokey pokey or whatever it is they do to try to shake you off for the most part, and nail them in their weak spot which they blantantly throw in your face.
That's how I thought the boss fights were lame. They were epic but they were also epically lame. So when you have stuff in the main part of the game that's terrible, you either do the side quest stuff or turn the game off and return it to the store to get credit towards hopefully a better game. The only side questy stuff here are the lizards that you have you painstakingly seek out just get your grip meter increased (which as Yahtzee pointed out, you kind of have to later on). It's like finding an ant in a world the size of Manhattan. Or you could do the other thing which is admire your surroundings. I didn't do either and basically gave up early on in the game because it wasn't that challenging. (Or you could get the useless bonus items like the parachute.)
You can't just have - wait wait, I'm sorry - IN MY OPINION, you can't just have a game based off of exploration alone. There has to be some other aspects in there to get me enticed to play it. It's like if GTA had a desolate city landscape with no other cars, no other people, just npc's for you to scope out on your own and defeat just to please the sky for whatever reason. Someone in this thread earlier (apologies for not getting your name) brought up BioShock and it's exploration. I liked how you could just travel around Rapture dicking about getting money, hypos, etc and just beating up stuff until you want to proceed with the story, much like any other sandbox'ish type world setting. So I'll end on this and say that SotC had probably one of the most terrible endings to a video game I've ever seen (at least the music was decent) and that I'm sorry Yahtzee that my comments took a dump in your Corn Flakes or Branston Pickle or whatever it is you eat but hey, that's opinions for ya.
LOL! I think the last part should be my epitaph when I dieSlightlyEvil said:
Games that have compelled me to explore every inch of the environment either by promise of great loot, beautiful vistas, and/or interesting yet unknown puzzles:
Fallout 3
San Andreas
Assassin's Creed 2
Batman
These games didn't just have interesting environments, they had features within the environments that pulled me in.
Fallout 3
San Andreas
Assassin's Creed 2
Batman
These games didn't just have interesting environments, they had features within the environments that pulled me in.
Here's the interesting thing: much of the non-japanese gaming community tends to have "a clear track record of hating JRPGs and MMOs " ... people who grew up with action/puzzle platformers, point in click adventures and some of the early FPS's in general do not like those kinds of games.Lordofthesuplex said:
So we would give such games a pass unless someone who likewise hates these kinds games likes one in particular despite his taste.
One of the the main reasons I loved Metroid Prime Echoes was because it fleshed out the scanning system. It made it easier to tell what you had already scanned as well as what you actually needed to scan (switches and important log entries) vs. what was just cool flavor that might offer you a bit of an edge latter (although I scanned it all anyway).
About you comment again how some people don't like exploring: while it is possibly true some of the time, I don't think the main reason is that they are stupid and lazy (although they might be as well). It is hard for a game designer to simultaneously mix exploration and action, SotC being a pure example of that. If you are someone who bought the game to hack, shoot, or drive really fast you are going to see intensive exploration as the game depriving you of it's most enjoyable parts.
About you comment again how some people don't like exploring: while it is possibly true some of the time, I don't think the main reason is that they are stupid and lazy (although they might be as well). It is hard for a game designer to simultaneously mix exploration and action, SotC being a pure example of that. If you are someone who bought the game to hack, shoot, or drive really fast you are going to see intensive exploration as the game depriving you of it's most enjoyable parts.
As much as I usually agree with Yahtzee, and as much as Shadow Of The Colossus is definitely one of my favorite games ever; I find myself torn here. I do like some exploration in games if it is done right (it usually isn't) but I like having a little GPS marker in most of them so I don't get too lost and I have some inkling of where I am going (since I have a terrible sense of direction too). I also greatly prefer linear games in general and I was under the impression Yahtzee did too.
I believe developers keeping you on track through tightly designed areas allows for a much more intimate "relationship" between the devs and the players during the game, if that makes sense. In a large open world I am going to miss things, and I am going to lose track and get lost. In linear level design every step of the way can be refined perfectly (see Valve's games) so I see everything I am supposed to see and the game remains persistent and immersive, while keeping me on track and giving extra attention to detail. I always thought this was one of the reasons for Yahtzee loving the Half-Life series, so I am a bit confused here.
I believe developers keeping you on track through tightly designed areas allows for a much more intimate "relationship" between the devs and the players during the game, if that makes sense. In a large open world I am going to miss things, and I am going to lose track and get lost. In linear level design every step of the way can be refined perfectly (see Valve's games) so I see everything I am supposed to see and the game remains persistent and immersive, while keeping me on track and giving extra attention to detail. I always thought this was one of the reasons for Yahtzee loving the Half-Life series, so I am a bit confused here.
The whole point is that SoTC is about exploring. Not exploring to find new items, or cool shit to add to your weapons, but just simply exploring. It's not a means to an end, it IS the end. If you need to find cool shit to warrant exploration, than you don't like exploring, you like cool shit.MasterV said:
like you said the in the review: "ico sound horrible on paper". and thats is the same with SOTC. the idea is: "you have to kill 16 bosses, in a world which is pretty empty, where are no other monsters to fight with and the gameplay exist most out of climbing with a timelimit". is sounds boring a not interrestng. but somehow they created a great game with a 'soul'. every boss was great and unique, the empty world gave you the feeling that you were in sacred place where no man lives, because there were no lesser monsters the game had more contrast (like you said) and because of the timelimit you were always nervous, like would have been if you would fight so monster for real.
Touche Good Sir. And a very nice avatar, if I do say so myself (*cough*not a Lovecraft fan at all no sir not me*/cough*.ninja555 said:
OT: Exploration is a fantastic aspect of gaming- it can add so much. I just wish that there was much more of a chance to explore more of Rapture in Bioshock; perhaps in the manner of Bethesda's Oblivion/Fallout3 style. It would be SO interesting.
Didn't we all?ziggy161 said: