On Geek Privilege

[Erttheking]

I personally prefer not to focus as much on the asshole as I do on making those that are being harassed know that they're perfectly welcome, and ignore Tim, he's a jerk, want to go kill some orcs instead?

Can't we do both? Can't we call out assholes and make it clear to the harassed that they are welcome?

 

[Erttheking]

I personally prefer not to focus as much on the asshole as I do on making those that are being harassed know that they're perfectly welcome, and ignore Tim, he's a jerk, want to go kill some orcs instead?

Can't we do both? Can't we call out assholes and make it clear to the harassed that they are welcome?

We already freaking do! Seriously, even in games of LoL people tell people they are in the wrong for giving a player shit.

So how much should we call out assholes to make you happy until we hit your asshole calling out quota? When we already try to make the harassed welcome? What's your end goal? How can I make you happy when I already do what you think we should?

Truly I am legitimately curious.

Well...you already do make me happy. I wasn't talking about you because you weren't the one who said he preferred to ignore assholes and focus on making people feel welcome. Seriously, not quite sure where you were coming from there.

 

[Vegosiux]

I personally prefer not to focus as much on the asshole as I do on making those that are being harassed know that they're perfectly welcome, and ignore Tim, he's a jerk, want to go kill some orcs instead?

Can't we do both? Can't we call out assholes and make it clear to the harassed that they are welcome?

Indeed we can. But I invest significantly more effort into the latter. Doesn't mean I'm not doing the former at all. Only that my efforts there usually stop at "Seriously, tone it down", reporting the asshat and/or initiating a vote-kick.

 

[Erttheking]

I personally prefer not to focus as much on the asshole as I do on making those that are being harassed know that they're perfectly welcome, and ignore Tim, he's a jerk, want to go kill some orcs instead?

Can't we do both? Can't we call out assholes and make it clear to the harassed that they are welcome?

Indeed we can. But I invest significantly more effort into the latter. Doesn't mean I'm not doing the former at all. Only that my efforts there usually stop at "Seriously, tone it down", reporting the asshat and/or initiating a vote-kick.

Well then, it seems like we have a plan. Your wording was just a little misleading is all.

 

[Redd the Sock]

Funny thing, fights about someone's privilege come from similar privileged perspectives. Urkel demonstrates this. Yes, he could be stalkerish most of the time, but rarely skeevy, and usually in a way that done differently would be romantic. But because he didn't look a certain way and his serenades came less from smooth jazz than a nasily voice and an accordion Laura wouldn't look at him long enough to realize they probably wouldn't have been compatible anyway, unless she needed science homework done. Commentary that attractive people get the breaks is nothing new, and wasn't at the time, but you can see how whatever privilege Urkel might have had, Laura had the same, and it reflects a society that claims to want one thing, but always seems to choose things on more shallow criteria like looks and charisma.

Such as it is with "geek culture". I've been down this before, and I'm not sure why I'm trying again, but yes, we were destined for conflict when one group of people wanted into another group of people that were at best very introverted and anti-social, and at worst, afraid the bullies had found them and it would be back to the same bullying in high school, and get surprised when friction starts. Had it been approached with a sense of humility things might have gone differently, but instead the group that hadn't been judged poorly for their looks or hobbies found the place that dared to look down of them, and couldn't take it.

It quickly developed into "geek privilege" because (in my theory at least) to do otherwise might involve seeing this culture as people that didn't actually owe you anything. That they had no obligation to shift their values now that you're here so you don't feel bad. That if you actually wanted change for you benefit, you have to give them a reason to want it as well. Sadly, I don't get a lot of impression that "old guard geeks" for lack of a better term are seen as people so much as obstructions by people not used to not getting their way. People that want others to think how they are treating them, but show little concern for feeling back. People that want more attention from the market, but don't feel obligated to buy things that fit their wants unless "perfect." People that didn't want to be looked down on for being casual, looking at the hardcore as something distasteful. Call out geek privilege all you want. I'm not sure the other side is any less feeling like they should always get their way.

 

[Baresark]

I find a lot of this particular blog a bit off pace, to be honest. At the end of the day, power and privilege is not ever afforded to individuals within a culture, only groups within a culture. What happens in the group environment (which universally tends toward extremes) is that the primary members of those groups (ie. nerds and geeks are, by and large, white male individuals, at least at first this was the primary group) become the stereotype that the group identifies with. So of course you see the group as a whole finding that as the archetype and anything that does not fit into that archetype is up for criticism of some sort. People will always identify with a given set of individuals who are the primary and most powerful members of a group.

Also, love how racism makes it's way into the conversation. Racism is definitely a thing that happens and in some areas it's rampant and in some places it's non-existent. That is the world we live in, it's definitely terrible. But... I have noticed that things identified as racism are not always actually racism. There is such a thing as implicit egotism. I have met maybe 2 non-white people (I'm from NJ, we are super diverse here) in my life that fit into the whole nerd/geek "culture" (used very loosely). I can't blame any non-white for not wanting to be a member of that group as there exists an environment that they may not be comfortable in due to implicit egotism. It's one of those things that are ingrained into our very biology and the fact that people are pack animals. My point in this that bringing up "white male" as being a primary group identifier and by extension one of the problems with the "culture" because it's obviously racist is probably not the case in most instances.

Let's talk about sexism. Sexism is an issue. But it typically is not an issue with a lot of people. A minority of members of any groups that are male-centric will be truly sexist, heinous, deserving to punched in the gut, sexist. The issue is that stupid people are not afraid to give their stupid opinion. And they are stupidly proud of it on many occasions. Because some idiots cat call cosplayers doesn't not make the entire group of people who identify with them actually sexist. I have seen very few occasions where that happens and the surrounding audience is not generally disgusted by the display. I bring this up simply because small numbers of individuals cannot be controlled by anyone unless they are doing something illegal. Cat calling a girl or make rude comments is not illegal or punishable by any means other than social outcasting. That leads to them forming an even smaller more extreme group, unfortunately.

Lets discuss sex as a prize. Sex will always be a prize because of biology. The human brain may say, "I'm getting laid! WOO HOO!" The Biology sees it as a way showing worthiness to spread genetic material. No matter how much more "advanced" we are as a species or society or social group... we will always be slave to Biology. And yes, this is completely independent of the knowledge that you may be using contraception, it's deeper than that. Reproduction using genetic material is how all biological life on Earth does it, humans cannot be an exception to that rule (it's impossible as it turns out).

That said, my belief is that most individual men do not see sex this way. If we did we could not have female friends. We could not work next to women without having some sort of contempt towards them or seeing them as inferior in some way.. yet everyone I work with is fine with the women we work next too. My boss is a woman and we have nothing but respect for her. I am in a wonderful relationship. My friends are married to wonderful women who we all respect and love. My point is simply that sex as a prize, while it does exist, is not indicative of a social problem that any but a small minority of men suffer from. Also, in the interest of equality, sex as a prize tends to be a two way street. I have known women in the past who saw sex as a prize. But just like the men with this issue are not in my social circles, neither are the women.

TL;DR - The issues tend to be due to overall group mentality. Some people are terrible that are completely guilty of the things stated in this opinion piece. But most people do not. Groups will always tend towards extremes, leading to group fracturing into smaller groups. As an example, I love videogames (clearly, I'm here aren't I?), but that is the sole thing I have in common with many who come to this site. We have that in common, we can talk about that, everyone is happy. But moral opinion pieces such as this just rub me the wrong way. We should all try to fix a problem when we see it, the issue is that I mostly don't see the problem that is discussed here. At any Comicon I have been to, I have never seen any cosplayer objectified as a sex prize. I have never seen any individual excommunicated or looked down on because they don't fit the rest of the groups race/sex/ethnic background. The issue for me is that Bob loves to say, "Look at what this group does... you are part of the group? Look at what you are doing!" Only, I don't identify with any group in particular so much as a group identifies with me. I don't like video games and comic books because the group likes it, I just like them. They aren't perfect, like anything with immense growth potential, they have a lot of problems and things to figure out.

The belief is that since I like these things, I am part of that group, and I am guilty of what the overall group is doing. Only, I'm technically part of many groups (like everyone). I prioritize fitness and health in my life. I will universally skip playing games in favor of going to the gym. I am working on my deadlift and am almost at the 500 lbs mark. Does that make me "meat head"? I would say yes, or at very least a "bro", which is universally despised by geek/nerd "culture" despite the similarities. But then my second biggest priority in life as an adult male is education. I read books almost exclusively about science, I subscribe to both Scientific American and their Mind publication. I read books on psychology, physics, biology, geology... you name it. So I must fit back into the "nerd/geek" culture, only the overlap with other groups that they are definitively against is ridiculous. And in all of this I manage to not be racist, sexist, over privileged, or even disagreeable with the people I put myself around.

Edit: Bad rant, sorry. I didn't know I put so much, I'm that guy this time around I guess.

 

[Muspelheim]

I feel that geek culture and the overarching nerd collective is nothing but the usual tribal bullshit. There are some effect from the intellectual roots, but it all goes out of the window as soon as a favourable position (that has become "they way it should be" over time) is contested.

As always, be very, very, very careful about rocking the boat. This one in particular.

 

[Gigano]

Well, this whole "privilege" thing is meaningless to begin with, in that it's not possible to ascertain any individual or individual situation by. Each and every individual would at various times and places hold contextual advantages in some regards, while being disadvantaged in others. To know(/speculate) that members of some group have(n't got) some sort of "privilege" tell us nothing on their individual circumstances; which furthermore change between the situations they seek out or find themselves in.

This is called "reality", and whilst one may whine all one wants about some people preferring to share their candy only with other people than oneself, such does not really entitle one to be fed their candy.

Anyway, if you're part of some nerdy community dedicated to breed centipedes with more legs, then chances are your subculture is pretty powerless and without mainstream representation. Is it unfair that centibreed culture is absent representation?

Of course not; as with all other subcultures, it's of interest to no one but the participants in it. Most problems come from when mainstream society do pay attention, like major media channels discovering GTA, or multiple government's unwholesome obsession with persecuting men who kiss other men.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Bit confused over this.

Is this about privilege people who happen to be geeks have, or about privilege people have from being geeks?

The first is fairly obviously an issue, same as Gay Male Privilege (which is just male privilege which male gay people have). Very basic intersectionality there.

The latter...not seeing it.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

By that notion that a drop of poison can kill an elephant, and your point is fair, Murder still happens, what because we haven't stopped it outright, we must tolerate it?

The fact that Oppression and acceptance into the geek and nerd culture is actually a ridiculously uncommon thing does not mean we don't do anything about it.

Think about this for a second. I disagree with Bob's point of view, some may disagree with mine, we still accept that we are all part of this geek and nerd culture. We aren't saying "You aren't in my group!"

This is not a group that oppresses or tries to keep people turned off from the idea, it happens extremely rarely, and when it does happen, and I've seen it first hand at conventions so don't go telling me it doesn't, many of us will all but lynch an offender that we view as having done wrong. We in fact do the opposite of tolerating that kind of crap.

Saying because we haven't stopped it entirely must mean we tolerate it, may as well be damning us eternally. Because circumstances of such occurrence will always take place. We can't stop it entirely, and we won't always see it/won't always stand up when we see it because not all have that courage to do so.

But many of us do.

If we want to talk about poison killing an elephant we can apply that to all of humanity. Quit damning one group because it fits a particular political agenda, when said culture has worked hard to go out of their way to not tolerate that shit.

Look at Bob. Look at his reputation. Does he tolerate it? Has he made efforts to stop it? Or is it because it still happens, he is still tolerant of it because he is in that group.

Much like the Gay community in the opening part of his post. The problem is a problem, yes, but our problem is at a point where we can almost say there will always be a few bad eggs, and we can't stop them all. We have been doing things about this, not just recently, but for decades.

Like I said, if you want to say one bad person can paint the entire community red, your part of the problem. You can say that about all of humanity, and all we can do is what we can, when we can, when it happens. No more no less.

We haven't managed to stop murder since time began, that doesn't mean we as human being are all murderers or tolerant of it. Nor can we always stop it. But we make efforts when and where we can. Which is what this community already does, and acting like we need to improve, when he offered not even a mention of how we improve it suggests we are already at the point where we are doing a lot already.

I was more referring to the quote's fact that Bob assumes that a majority of the community is toxic when it's actually just a small amount. I made no comment about whether to tolerate it or not and I personally believe that we actually need to double down the efforts against these types of people with more drastic measures.

 

[PuckFuppet]

In direct response to the above. I am/was a nerd in school. This did lead to "bullying". I did get over it and move on. I don't see why an individuals experience should inform the motives on an entire group. There is no clear "all people in blue experience this and all people in yellow experience that" line when it comes to how you developed as a person during the major formative years of your life. Creating that line as a kind of "self-righteous because of my angst" card whenever you need it seems facetious at best.

Bob, I disagree with you using the glorious Babylon 5 as your touchstone here, you are hearby expelled for the Most Priviledgious Order of Geeks. Hand in your card on the way out.

As an aside though, and I seriously want to know, are "attractive" cosplayers serious subject to that much... peer pressure at a convention? Or is this just observation bias, for every twenty instances where it doesn't happen you see and remember the one instance it does.

I ask because, having been to more than a few cons, I've yet to see it in a serious way. I distinctly remember one con in London where someone did a catcall, or something I didn't hear it, and one of his friends honestly punched him right then infront of a stand. Not the most rational reaction, but it certainly set the tone for the con.

As an aside to the "being a nerd is like a racial minority" thing let me hit you with this line "You don't understand, you say you were depressed in school?! Who cares, get over it. I lived through school as a nerd. You don't understand."

Guy delivered it with a straight face too.

 

[Senare]

To be fair, I never once understood the phrase "check your privilege", neither the kind of people its intended for (speaker and target both).

Rational wiki has a good page on the concept of privilege in this context. Check it out <a href=http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Privilege>here. The part about "check your privilege" is in one of the first subsections.

 

[Elf Defiler Korgan]

Look, Bob. I was never bullied in high-school, I've always had friends and aside from moving into the world of 'adult friends' i.e. people you like to see but can only see occasionally because of work/relationships/home/obligations, I've never really felt that much of an outsider. In fact it's only in the last couple of years it's really really hit me there are people who DON'T share my admittedly middle class set of experiences.

I don't have that idea that i am some-how an outsider. I've always had like-minded people to talk to. These ideas of the "Shared Geek experience", "Persecution mindset" and "Nice guy culture" are pretty alien to me. To put it differently; nerds have always been accepted for a large sub-section of my generation. We didn't feel like nerds because it was never really brought up.

Maybe it's more of an extension of not having the same cultural touch-stones as the US does (or as horrible state school system). There is a very British tradition of eccentricity and the lording of the maverick that dates back to the Victorians. Maybe it's also a extension of the traditional class system where a good education and intelligence were seen as evidence of being of higher status or that technically minded people have been lauded as an extension of British greatness for decades.

Hell the 1980s saw a massive boom in the bedroom coder and cheap personal, programmable computers. Even at that time being 15 and coding a videogame was actually something pretty cool to do. British culture just isn't as afraid of intelligence as classic American culture was.

Yeah I certainly agree (Australian here) with what you are saying. I copped a bit of flak in my youth for my geekiness and I am in Bob's cohort, but it seems to me that things have really changed. Geek is mainstream, geek isn't always white male anymore. Geek and nerd culture is very Asian now and woman are heavily into it (perhaps as an escape from the banal cultures or subcultures). I tutor a range of high school students, and these kids are lucky, geekiness doesn't lead to much in the way of bullying, it is normalised. Kids play video games, gone are the days of weird kids play video games. I have been very happy with what I have been seeing across the geek countries (anime, dnd, board game, pc, ps) and it isn't just young white males playing anymore. The US, is in many ways messed up, and geeks copped a lot of grief there, for in a country supposedly committed to individualism, the individuals have always taken a thorough beating for being individualistic.

Other places are a geek paradise. I am in Melbourne, and it is a fantastic time to be a geek (wish I didn't have to work so much). My rpg group is mostly female, I game online and locally with people of many different races and now, with geeks of many different ages (some are getting into their 40s and 50s now, but a new wave of geek 15 year olds are also here contributing). The geek games then become about having fun and sharing interests. There isn't much time for early Geek American culture of dudes being dicks to everyone different.

Honestly, chatting to a group of young nerds (of quite varied racial backgrounds--one is from Nepal) about what they have been playing and making some suggestions they try the old classics or the less mainstream games of the latest indie boom, makes me tremendously happy. Things are looking up Bob, not down.