On the Casual Game Hate

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yeah_so_no

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I just read two really interesting (but long) articles on so-called "casual" gaming:

Birdmen and the Casual Fallacy [http://malstrom.50webs.com/birdman.html]

That's Not a Real Game: Videogames, Gender, and the Popular Imagination [http://pressstarttodrink.blogspot.com/2009/06/thats-not-real-game-videogames-gender.html]

I think both of them are very well thought-out and have some pretty interesting and spot-on points on why so many people who consider themselves 'hardcore' gamers have so much vitriol for casual games. What do y'all think?
 

Ezzay

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Feb 28, 2009
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I think hardcore gamers need to get off their high horse and understand that they are a small part of the consumer base.

I was a hardcore gamer, things change, work happens, life happens.

Casual games are great, I will always enjoy them.
 

Rednog

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Ezzay said:
I think hardcore gamers need to get off their high horse and understand that they are a small part of the consumer base.

I was a hardcore gamer, things change, work happens, life happens.

Casual games are great, I will always enjoy them.
I don't think casual games are a small part of the consumer base anymore. One reason the Wii is on top is because causal gamers have pushed it there. I couldn't find any hard numbers on a quick search, but I wouldn't doubt causal gamers reaching a double digit percentage.
 

Ezzay

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Rednog said:
I don't think casual games are a small part of the consumer base anymore. One reason the Wii is on top is because causal gamers have pushed it there. I couldn't find any hard numbers on a quick search, but I wouldn't doubt causal gamers reaching a double digit percentage.
I think you got me backwards, I was referring to Hardcore gamers being a small part of the consumer base.

Its actually casual gamers who are the main consumers of any game. Purely because there is so many of them compared to Hardcores.
 
Apr 24, 2008
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Rednog said:
Ezzay said:
I think hardcore gamers need to get off their high horse and understand that they are a small part of the consumer base.

I was a hardcore gamer, things change, work happens, life happens.

Casual games are great, I will always enjoy them.
I don't think casual games are a small part of the consumer base anymore. One reason the Wii is on top is because causal gamers have pushed it there. I couldn't find any hard numbers on a quick search, but I wouldn't doubt causal gamers reaching a double digit percentage.
I thought it was masses of consoles sold, but the casual gamers don't buy many games.
 

Ezzay

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Sexual Harassment Panda said:
I thought it was masses of consoles sold, but the casual gamers don't buy many games.
How many games they buy is irrelevant, the fact that there is so many of them is what counts.
 
Apr 24, 2008
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Ezzay said:
Sexual Harassment Panda said:
I thought it was masses of consoles sold, but the casual gamers don't buy many games.
How many games they buy is irrelevant, the fact that there is so many of them is what counts.
I think game sales are important too. I know Nintendo are raking it in selling their first party titles, bundled with yet more hardware. But how profitable is it for 3rd party companies to develop for the wii?
 

Rednog

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Sexual Harassment Panda said:
Ezzay said:
Sexual Harassment Panda said:
I thought it was masses of consoles sold, but the casual gamers don't buy many games.
How many games they buy is irrelevant, the fact that there is so many of them is what counts.
I think game sales are important too. I know Nintendo are raking it in selling their first party titles, bundled with yet more hardware. But how profitable is it for 3rd party companies to develop for the wii?
It isn't that profitable, that's why you see very few "hardcore" games.
 

XJ-0461

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Can someone define "hardcore games" for me? Preferably a description rather than titles.
 

Caliostro

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yeah_so_no said:
why so many people who consider themselves 'hardcore' gamers have so much vitriol for casual games. What do y'all think?
Now, personally I have a huge beef with nominations such as "hardcore" gamer and "casual gamer". People who name themselves "hardcore" gamers are usually people who take games way the fuck too seriously and people who name themselves "casual" games usually just clueless bandwagon-jumping berks who just wanna include themselves in the "gamer" segment, by force if necessary.

I think from the point where you play a game, you're a gamer, period.

That said, I do have a special pet hate for what's commonly known as "casual games". Backtracking for a second, I am totally in favor of making games more accessible to new players. I agree with the concept that the industry sort of grew up focused on feeding the same people who've been playing games their whole life, and tends to forget there's a market out there, a huge one, for people who never picked up a controller or the kind of people most of us current gamers jokingly label as "the guys that don't really know which side of the gun does the shooting".

And that's exactly why the Wii made a fortune this generation, it was approachable for a new player. It was accessible to people who weren't used to games, was flashy and gimmicky, and that was the selling point.

"So, Cali, why in the hell do you hate the Wii and "casual games"??"

Well, I'm part of those self-important tossers like yahtzee, or most staff I've seen from the escapist (-ATTENTION - NOT SAYING THEY SHARE THE REST OF MY VIEW, THANK YOU.), who consider gaming to be a form of art. I'm all in favor of making gaming, all of it, more user friendly and accessible, but most of what are the "casual games" of this era are nothing if not cheap, shallow and utterly stupid gimmicks. I'm sure they're accessible, but they're not accessible because someone in the lead designers' body carefully balanced a real, fully developed game, to be both accessible to new gamers and interesting to old ones. They just slapped some shiny crap together, made it interactive (often only partially) and tossed it on it's way. It's the Fisher Price of gaming.

Ultimately this comes down to the same-old "childish vs. child friendly" debate. A show like the Simpsons is "child friendly", it's a show anyone, of any age and mental capacity, can enjoy for the most part. It's a show a parent can watch with his child and it will cater to both. Something like your average saturday morning cartoon isn't "child-friendly", it's downright childish. Now, if you're wondering which is easier to do, your average morning cartoon is a lot easier and cheaper to produce. It's dumbed down half-baked often unfinished content, but it's enough for the simple and easily amused mind of a child. The Simpsons are a downright legendary series, who take considerable work and dedication to make.

And this is the "tie-in" to gaming. For the crushing majority of games this generation, they're not "casual-friendly", they're really just simple, and dumbed down, and gimmicky to appeal to simple tastes. This I hate, because I look at it as a cheapening of game as a format.

So that's the issue, I'm all for more accessible games for people who haven't been gaming all their lives, games that are intuitive to pick up even for someone who never played a game before, but seriously, I don't think they have to be a stupid and cheap piece of barely functional gimmicky crap.

/rant.
 

Catchy Slogan

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I don't really care about weather it's casual or hardcore. A game is a game, regardless of difficulty level or simplicity, and as a gamer, I'll play any game I get because a little variety never did any harm and it keeps things fresh and interesting. A lot of decent games get pushed to the back, because people cast judgements on them before even trying them.
 

BladeOfAkriloth

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As long as it's fun and replayable, i sure as hell don't give the product from where the sun don't shine about "casual" and "hardcore"..... damn labeling.... source of all the world's evil i tell ya!
 

DYin01

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Oct 18, 2008
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Casual games can be fun from time to time. I was addicted to Plants vs. Zombies for a few days and I had a blast with it. As long as they don't neglect hardcore gamers I'm fine with casual stuff.
 
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BladeOfAkriloth said:
As long as it's fun and replayable, i sure as hell don't give the product from where the sun don't shine about "casual" and "hardcore"..... damn labeling.... source of all the world's evil i tell ya!
I agree with this. Stop making games for "casual" or "hardcore" gamers, and start making games for gamers again.

I'll give a couple of examples from this golden age. Mario 64. Anyone, and I mean ANYONE could pick this up and play it, and find it enjoyable, but you need to have a certain level of determination to complete it and a monstrous level of resolve to get all 150 stars.

Final Fantasy games: You seriously telling me a newbie gamer couldn't pick up and play one of these? Many RPG's for that matter.

Some of the old strategy games. Age of Empires was basically my introduction to the world of strategy games.

The old platformers. You know the ones. Ristar. Sonic. Streets of... no, not quite streets of rage, that one's quite unforgiving even on easy mode... but the others could generally be gotten the hang of pretty quickly and were still fun for experts to play (getting through Ristar on normal: not too hard. Getting through it on Super? I managed it but it put me through the dryer doing so). Except for Dynamite headdy, getting through that without a save system will push some gamers to controller-throwing rage, especially thanks to an unexpected genre shift and some down-right insane bosses.

Abe's Oddyssey and games like it are quite good at getting a handle on the controls of a game. Munch's oddyssey started to steer towards bloody hard at the start though, from a newbies perspective.
 

Nazulu

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Jun 5, 2008
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I don't mind casual games but most of them are pretty shallow and cheap to make games that I don't have any interest in.

notoriouslynx said:
You want I hate, people who use the terms casual and hardcore, people who hate the terms and when people say, people who rant, and people who say "can you define hardcore for me?".
Sorry you lost me. Did you mean to say "You know what I hate?"? Also are you saying you just about hate everyone? lol
 

Gladion

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Caliostro said:
First of all, I share your opinion that games can possibly be a form of art. But the problem just is, that about 99,5% of the games up until now do not feature anything 'arty', whether they are good games or not. This is not limited to casual games - there are little games that have any value at all, you play em, you enjoy em, you forgot em. I think you cannot blame the 'casual gaming industry' for anything, since they hardly do anything worse than the 'regular gaming' developers.
Also don't hate the Wii. It's not the console's fault so much shit is being developed for it. And games don't get ported on the Wii because the demographic was stupider. Since N64, it's been the way that Nintendo consoles get very little third party support - they make so many great first party games that many people owning a Nintendo console didn't/don't even consider getting third party games; so sales on them lack(ed) compared to the other systems'. Now it's the same, 'hardcore' gamers get the Nintendo first party games (and maybe some Wii-exclusives like House of the Dead or Scarface), and it's not like 80% of Wii owners were casual gamers - believe it or not.
The gaming industry also has been the fastest growing market in the world before all this. There are a lot of hardcore gamers (if you want to label yourself), you might underestimate the number of 'us' :p

Edit: the fuck happened to my quotation oO should've fixed it now, though.
 

Caliostro

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Jan 23, 2008
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Gladion said:
First of all, I share your opinion that games can possibly be a form of art. But the problem just is, that about 99,5% of the games up until now do not feature anything 'arty', whether they are good games or not. This is not limited to casual games - there are little games that have any value at all, you play em, you enjoy em, you forgot em. I think you cannot blame the 'casual gaming industry' for anything, since they hardly do anything worse than the 'regular gaming' developers.
A good game is a form of art. If a game is truly immersive, can truly draw you in and make you feel a real experience, it's a form of art. Assassin's Creed, Fallout 3, Mirror's Edge, Vice City... I'm sure a lot of criticism can be leveled with those games, but the fact is they were a form of art as they transmitted a real experience, or were innovative, perhaps ground breaking in some areas... It's quite pretentious to say a game has to look "artsy" to be art. It's like those people who say "oh, that's not different enough to be art!"... Off course, there's a lot of shit around, obviously. I blame those as well. The EA mentality of "release the same shit every year with a different cover and updated graphics", the "franchise cash in" mentality that values releasing something, anything, in time to cash in from a movie more than making something good, I blame MMOs for their atrocious [LACK of] gameplay...etc. But the "casual" games are equally a problem.


Gladion said:
Also don't hate the Wii. It's not the console's fault so much shit is being developed for it. And games don't get ported on the Wii because the demographic was stupider. Since N64, it's been the way that Nintendo consoles get very little third party support - they make so many great first party games that many people owning a Nintendo console didn't/don't even consider getting third party games; so sales on them lack(ed) compared to the other systems'. Now it's the same, 'hardcore' gamers get the Nintendo first party games (and maybe some Wii-exclusives like House of the Dead or Scarface), and it's not like 80% of Wii owners were casual gamers - believe it or not.
The gaming industry also has been the fastest growing market in the world before all this. There are a lot of hardcore gamers (if you want to label yourself), you might underestimate the number of 'us' :p
Ok, I might have sent the wrong message there, I don't hate the Wii so much as I hate Nintendo. The Wii is a console, and can only ever be as good as it's support allows. I've said time and again, the Wii (retarded name aside) had true potential to be something absolutely groundbreaking. The Wii could have jumped 2 or 3 generations ahead. But it didn't. Instead it developed into a gimmicky and malfunctioning crap, rushed out the door barely functional enough to cater to the previously mentioned "DUUUUUUUURP" crowd. I've had the displeasure of utilizing a Wii... The motion sensors don't really take your motions as commands so much as "helpful suggestions"... It all sterns from marketing advisers having more influence than actual game designers.

You say Nintendo produces a lot of "quality first party content", I honestly fail to see it. Keep in mind I'm as unbiased as I get, the gameboy was the first console I ever had, owned it since, pretty much the year they were released, loved it, and even bought the colour version when it came out... Then I outgrew it. I realized I kept growing, I was the simple minded 8 year old I used to be... Nintendo, however, didn't. I try, if only for nostalgia's sake, I try to like nintendo... But I can't... They haven't produced anything that makes me go "...Well, now that's impressive." since... Mario 64? And mostly because Mario64 was the transposition of the 2D classical to the 3D world, something which usually turns to utter crap (e.g.: Sonic), but that Nintendo managed to do quite well, specially for the time... But then it seems they just stopped trying. They're worse than fucking E.A. they just re-release everything with different graphics. Cut out the gimmicky malfunctioning crap the motion sensors are, and the latest Mario game is Mario 64 with updated graphics... And let's not even go into the depressing obvious exploitative cash-in that the "Wii fit" games are.

I guess, ultimately, that's the real flaw with Wii, it screams "cash in", it's barely functional and caters to a very specific demographic, which discourages "hardcore" developers to even try to do something for it, specially with it's steep graphical limitations... Take for instances MadWorld. What seems like a groundbreaking game for the console it's on it's basically another cash in. It was supposed to be a "mature game" for a console severely lacking in that area, but the "birdman fallacy" shines again. The result is that MadWorld approach the concept of "maturity" like a 12 year older: "LOOOOLOLOL BLOOD AND GORE, BLOOD AND GORE!! LOLOL!". It's another gimmicky cash in. Just look at the name. "Wii"... Honestly, someone at Nintendo's HQ can't have spent longer than 20 seconds thinking about it... During their coffee break... While watching TV...
 

Scrythe

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Jun 23, 2009
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This whole Hardcore Gamer vs Casual Gamer war happened so suddenly that I almost have no idea what the hell is going on.

In reality, it should be Gamer and Non-Gamer. A Gamer is a person who, well, games. Either casually, on weekends, or every day after school until long after the sun drops. The Non-Gammer would play Tetris or Mahjongg or something from FreeWebArcade.com when they get really really bored at home or work.

This whole thing's just stupid. I've been playing video games since before I even knew how to read, own almost every console known to man, and I still don't call myself a fuckin' hardcore gamer. Even when I hear the word "hardcore" escape someone's lips, I automatically dismiss them as a fucking tool. This really shouldn't have happened.

Maybe it's me just standing atop my slightly elitist soapbox, but I honestly love and miss the days when being a gamer made you an outcast, or a geek. Now the whole concept of gaming went from "entertainment" to a combination of a Hot Topic trend and a pissing contest of who can push out the most polygons and particle physics from their asses. Gah!

I say this a lot, but I'll say it once more: This is truly the Dark Age of Gaming.