On the Katana and it's wielder.

[Housebroken Lunatic]

My theory is that the katana never evolved because Japanese warfare basically didn't either.Same tactics,and weak armor meant there was no reason to change the design of weapons.But when an outsider comes along and sees a katana,he sees a mythical weapon so perfect it never had to change,always cutting through soldiers with ease.

Now compare that to European warfare,constantly changing.Every time new advances in armor technology,or a better tactic comes along,the weapons change to better adapt.These constant changes meant that no weapon had ever time to gain that legendary status,except maybe the english longbow,but it's nowhere near the katana's fame.
Had the Japanese gotten full plated armor like late 16th century European knights,you would have seen the katana vanish to make room for rapiers and bills.

Err, I have to put your knowledge of Japanese warfare history into serious question if you claim that japanese warfare tactics "didn't evolve". Also infantry didn't run around with katana swords slashing eachother. As I've said in a previous post, the primary weapons came to be bows and spears, while the katana was more as a symbol of the samurai class and a kind of side-arm on the battlefield.

The only thing that didn't evolve too much was the armour worn by japanese soldiers, and this because Japan didn't have as much in the way of iron ore to mass produce metal armour like the europeans did. Also the japanese were extremely quick to adopt the use of arqebuses and cannons.

So really, what are you talking about when you say that the japanese way of warfare "basically didn't evolve at all"?

 

[Housebroken Lunatic]

However I would like to point out that these arguments are pointless. Most armies consisted of peasants wielding spears. (At least this was the case in Europe).

Same thing in japan. The brunt of any army consisted mostly of Ashigaru (conscripted peasants) wielding yari's or naginatas, and they weren't permitted to carry katanas at all. A relatively small portion of japanese armies actually consisted of samurai.

 

[Lonely Swordsman]

The katana is not a weapon of war, it's a weapon of ceremony.
Samurai would carry them into battle to show their knightly status, but any soldier with half a brain would chose a polearm or bow and arrow over it in actual battle.

The only thing it was used for was in the practice of Iaito, meaning duels between samurai, unarmored and exclusively armed with katana.

Katana and katana fencing styles are all designed and based around opponents also wielding katana. Outside of that, they're almost worthless unless you're impossibly good with them AND your enemy is not armored.

 

[Mandalore_15]

The katana is an overrated weapon in fiction. It may have been very well-constructed and great for its specific uses, but it wasn't a wonder-sword, and it was made using notably weak Japanese steel - this is why it had to be well-constructed.

during a time when europe still used iron. it may be weak steel, but it WAS steel.

and in europe, knights were usually drunken, rude and often dishonourable (noble knights are fairy tales), while the samurai had a dash more morals (not very much, but just a bit).

Erm, everything I've read about the feudal system in Japan and Samurai tended to suggest that they were monumental dicks... so really I think this comparison is pretty unfounded. The majority of both were complete turds!

 

[Nocta-Aeterna]

2)The katana makes a good cutting and slashing weapon against unarmoured opponents, for duels and such, but makes a poor infantry weapon. We got spears and bows for that.

Which the japanese used in warfare. Spears and polearms like the yari and the naginata, as well as bows (both from horseback and from the ground).

It's just that the samurai didn't go anywhere without their katana and wakizashi, but in infantry combat they used polearms suited for it.

I referred to humanity in general with "we".

 

[barbzilla]

Couple of things to point out;

1: While the Japanese in general didn't have armor, the Samurai wore plate armor. Thus they do have experience dealing with armored opponents (though they would be unlikely to use their katana against said opponent.

2: Granted they didn't have great ore deposits, the way the made katanas was vastly superior and the technique is still in use today.

3: Why they are used to represent a badass.... Okay I have nothing on this one, I tend to prefer a nice rapier.

 

[Spoonius]

The katana is an overrated weapon in fiction. It may have been very well-constructed and great for its specific uses, but it wasn't a wonder-sword, and it was made using notably weak Japanese steel - this is why it had to be well-constructed.

during a time when europe still used iron. it may be weak steel, but it WAS steel.

and in europe, knights were usually drunken, rude and often dishonourable (noble knights are fairy tales), while the samurai had a dash more morals (not very much, but just a bit).

Erm, everything I've read about the feudal system in Japan and Samurai tended to suggest that they were monumental dicks... so really I think this comparison is pretty unfounded. The majority of both were complete turds!

Agreed. The samurai were loyal, but just as brutal as anyone else. They weren't exactly humanitarians.

You just have to look at Japanese military history to know that they aren't the most civilised bunch.

 

[warprincenataku]

The katana is a well-balanced blade perfect for hand and a half wielding. It's blade has been folded hundred of time creating layer upon layer in its design. This makes it both strong, flexible and incredibly sharp. It swings fast and cuts through bone, skine, muscle and the like with great ease. You don't have to be a muscular power house to wield one and more focus is on finess than brute force.

That's why the katana is at the top of the stack of best combat weapons.

There are very few weapons I would pick to use against someone with a katana.

Having 12 years of training myself the only weapon I would pick against a katana is either a katana, ninjato, ditch axe or shuko. Possibly a gun, but I have little to no training with one. lol

 

[Housebroken Lunatic]

3: Why they are used to represent a badass.... Okay I have nothing on this one, I tend to prefer a nice rapier.

Rapier? You mean that mincy little weapon mostly known as used by french "men" with silly looking twirled moustaches, long hair, wearing flamboyant clothes and wide-brimmed hats with two birds worth of fluffy feathers stuck to it?

I kid, I kid. The rapier is an elegant sword, but if you consider the stereotype I just presented, I think you'll understand that the common perception of the rapier and the people who used them doesn't exactly make people think "badass".

Anyhow, as to my own theory:

I think the katana might have this special status mainly because it is associated with a rather heavy warrior culture. After all, the japanese were quite good at glorifying martial skill (I mean if you compare current sports, you'll see that martial arts are still a really big thing even in japanese schools, while Europeans and Americans glorify things like Soccer, Ice-Hockey, American Football and Baseball). I.e fighting and warfare combined with a seriously bloody history probably makes the katana stand out in comparison to other swords.

 

[LaughingAtlas]

Honestly, I don't care much for blades. You have to keep them sharp and they have a dreadful habit of getting stuck in things, especially axes, it seems. I'm more of a blunt weapon person, if bare fists are forbidden/useless as they so often seem to be in games.

 

[not_the_dm]

I think that it is because it was a symbol of Japanese millitary culture for longer that longswords, broadswords or greatswords were in Europe. I may be wrong, and feel free to correct me if I am. Personally I've always been partial to the claidheamh mor used in conjunction with a targe and dirk.

Spoiler

I honestly don't know if I'd be able to weild a claidheamh da laimh. The blades were often over five feet in length.

 

[barbzilla]

Oh I never intended to imply that the rapier was a badass' weapon. For personal preference the rapier would be mine though. I believe that it may be due to the more exotic nature of the blade and its culture. The fact that the Japanese believed that the sword had a soul of its own and would place great value on a blade, so much in fact that it became the most valuable item in a samurai's possessions, worth more than entire villages.

 

[Jazzyjazz2323]

3: Why they are used to represent a badass.... Okay I have nothing on this one, I tend to prefer a nice rapier.

Rapier? You mean that mincy little weapon mostly known as used by french "men" with silly looking twirled moustaches, long hair, wearing flamboyant clothes and wide-brimmed hats with two birds worth of fluffy feathers stuck to it?

I kid, I kid. The rapier is an elegant sword, but if you consider the stereotype I just presented, I think you'll understand that the common perception of the rapier and the people who used them doesn't exactly make people think "badass".

Anyhow, as to my own theory:

I think the katana might have this special status mainly because it is associated with a rather heavy warrior culture. After all, the japanese were quite good at glorifying martial skill (I mean if you compare current sports, you'll see that martial arts are still a really big thing even in japanese schools, while Europeans and Americans glorify things like Soccer, Ice-Hockey, American Football and Baseball). I.e fighting and warfare combined with a seriously bloody history probably makes the katana stand out in comparison to other swords.

That's funny lol,though my perception of a man wielding a saber is a 18th century calvaryman charging into battle dashing and elegant but brutal.

 

[Spoonius]

Heh, there sure are plenty of "experts" posting in this thread...

 

[Kukakkau]

Show me a nerd who can wield a claymore!

I'd say it's probably because the katana is far easier to handle than a huge european sword due to lesser weight and smaller form. I agree that in direct combat against a european broadsword the katana would most likely be fucked.

Claymore's actually tend to be pretty dam light for their size

And OT nerd > anime > japan > katana - that's pretty much the only links you have to make

 

[Dafttechno]

Samurai armor was made of iron plates or lacquered leather strips woven and bolted together. It was designed to afford the samurai a high level of protection while still being lightweight and flexible to give them as much mobility as possible. In an episode of Deadliest Warrior (I'm referring only to a practical demonstration, not getting into other aspects of the show), they tested a Spartan spear against antique, authentic samurai armor that was over 200 years old. The armor stopped the spear cold, bending the spear tip and only chipping a patch smaller than an inch square off the armor.

 

[Joshimodo]

I own a traditionally made Daishó (a Katana/Wakizashi pair), and they are beautiful things. Incredibly sharp, and nicely balanced. Unlike most swords, they feel like an extension to your arm, which is useful in combat.

I've also studied sword based martial arts, such as Kendo and Iaido.


However, the Katana is utterly useless against metal armour. Plate armour can actually fracture the blade due to having no give, but the bonus is the Katana is nimble enough to get between the plates. Chainmail will stop a Katana in any situation, though.



The mythology of the Katana is far more impressive than the Katana itself. Any well-built European blade can match it for killing prowess.

The users of the Katana treated them very well, as it was linked to the whole Bushido/Samurai code, honour and all that. Plus, the materials used to forge them were incredibly rare (hence the folded steel method), so thanks to the scarcity of quality metal and the length of time/amount of care taken to make them, they were treated with respect.

In comparison, European weapons for use by regular knights would be forged en masse. Aside from those used by Nobility or as gifts for important people, European swords were far less respected, thus they gained little mythos.


Short version: Stunningly elegant weapon, equal use to European blades (and inferior to Middle-Eastern ones), useless against metal armour, has more etiquette in regards to treating the blade outside of combat.

 

[not_the_dm]

The katana is a well-balanced blade perfect for hand and a half wielding. It's blade has been folded hundred of time creating layer upon layer in its design.

Hate to rain on your parade, but the blade of a katana was only folded 15 to 20 times. Mind you, that's still over 100 thousand layers.

 

[Jazzyjazz2323]

All this talk also raises another question that perplexes me and this is the seemingly lack of the Arabic swordsman in all recent geek culture.I find this somewhat confusing and odd,mainly because I believe the arabic swordsmen of the mid millennium had amazing skills with their given weapons and those weaposn were crafted with also great skill.So I wonder why they don't have the mythos like the other swordsmen to stand up in geek culture.