On the Katana and it's wielder.

[Housebroken Lunatic]

Indeed,the katana wasn't used by the common man on the battlefield,but that doesn't change the fact Japanese warfare didn't evolve for centuries,it almost did with some great generals trying to integrate arquebuses,but it never lasted.Besides,you cannot in any way say that Japanese tactics evolved as much as European tactics.

"Never lasted"?

The arquebuses were introduced to japan in 1543 by the Portuguese, and since then they were widely used by japanese armies.

Could you perhaps have read a bit too much of the romantic misconception that the samurai managed to ban the use of and further construction of muskets during the Sakoku?

Im sorry but your displayed views of the history of japanese warfare reeks of romanticized misconceptions and stereotyping. The country has an extensive history of bloody civil wars, overshadowing the history of warfare of a lot of other countries. You can't seriously mean to tell us that it wasn't in the interest of the japanese generals and daimyo's to develop and evolve their tactics and strategy considering their warlike ways?

 

[TheDarkestDerp]

The katana is an overrated weapon in fiction. It may have been very well-constructed and great for its specific uses, but it wasn't a wonder-sword, and it was made using notably weak Japanese steel - this is why it had to be well-constructed.

This pretty much sums it up for me as well. It's a pretty weapon, and it has it's place in history. It is surrounded by the same air of interest as anything else uncommon or out of the norm, but all the fan-fiction-like worship of it and it's users as magickal super-weapons isn't far removed from Star Wars nerds and light sabres.

Ejemplo- I remember watching the Japanese game show "Hey! Spring of Trivia" once, there was a factoid about which was better "Eastern" swordplay as represented by Kendo (katana) or "Western" style, as seen in fencing (rapier). To settle this, there was a best 2 out of 3 match between world-class masters of both styles and weapons. Care to wager who won? Not the katana-wielder. He was defeated in the first two sets of the three handily by the fencer.

 

[LondonBeer]

You cite cutting power as a factor & then say the curves distract you. The curves dictate the blades ability to cut effectively.

It's not the existence nor absence of a curve itself, it's the aesthetics of the curve, the type of curves. I just find it looks too wavy and naturalistic. Katana just looks like it's from the future, even though the design is hundreds of years old. It looks like a refined killing machine for a person who has trained their mind body and their very soul to kill effortlessly.

I have no idea which intrinsically cuts better but have you ever the phrase "it's not the arrow, it's the Indian"? At the time the western world really became familiar with Japanese weapons the samurai were the most pre-eminent sword fighters in the world, that (artistically speaking) infuses the weapon with a reputation. It's as much the swordsman that comes with the Katana that makes it so sought after.

A western style cavalry sabre - to me - leaves the impression of a guy with a huge moustache yelling CHHHAAAAAARGGE while impotently waving the sabre over their head.

When someone twirls a Colt Single Action Army revolver you get the impression of speed, and effortless accuracy... might not be the case but those that have wielded it before in fiction and non-fiction have left that reputation.

Consider the Japanese samurai films like Yojimbo and the Seven Samurai that have imbued the sword with a great potency. And when we are talking about art, there is that wider cultural impression that counts with not only the audience but the characters within the work. In Pulp Fiction when Butch is selecting weapons to face down some armed rapists nothing seems to instil more confidence in him than a samurai sword, more so than even a chainsaw.

The man that said "it's not the arrow, it's the Indian" has clearly never faced the Persians or for that matter the English

Ahh fair enough aesthetically its more pleasing to you. I dont know I find the medieval swords symetry and 'bareness' more appealing, it can be given ornateness but it works just as well bare. The Katana's kind of a one shot, one look, bland wee beasty to my eyes.

Yes the Colt gives the impression of speed & accuracy but that is all, in reality fan firing was pretty inaccurate to all but the best shooters at close range. I like my toys to perform
exactly like they do on the tin

 

[ZeLunarian]

My two cents: katana's have been glorified more than the magnum revolver.
Neither are used as primary weapons IRL
As I understand it. Samurai used a whole range of different weapons. Katana was more of a FINISH HIM weapon~

All in all, I'd say: It's not the weapon you should be afraid of.. It's the wielder (Guns don't kill people~~)

 

[Treblaine]

Which begs the question :-

We know that chainmail is all but impervious to a cutting edge,(butchers & fish mongers still use chainmail mitts) requiring great force to break the linkages, how resilient would Samurai armour have been given it was designed to stop a cutting curved edge not a flat edge with a thrusting potential?

Would the lamellar absorb the forces or fracture?

The advantage of chain mail is its flexibility (which is why it is still used today) but the problem is how it's only really good against glancing blows or blades with little force behind them. Fine if you are a butcher and you aren't dealing with actual attacks, just the chance that a blade might slip and drag over your hand.

Arrows glide straight through chain-mail. Chain mail had to be of milder steel/iron just to stitch it together, while a sword could be steel. Plate armour is only slightly heavier and will completely protect against all but the most powerful arrows and most forceful melee weapons.

To absorb the force you need a hard ridged plate that will spread the force from a razor edge over a wide 10x6 inch square. Soft body armour will never protect you from high power rifle rounds as even if the fabric was utterly indestructible the bullet would just force the fabric in through the bullet hole. Even if the chain mail held up, a good swing with a samurai sword may very well cut underneath the mail from the force alone!

 

[Gavmando]

Um, people, there's two subjects in the title of this thread; the Katana, and it's wielder.

You've all pretty much covered the sword, but what about the dude who flailed it around?

My View:
The reason that the Katana was considered such a "badass" weapon was because of the guy who wielded it. The whole mental outlook of a Samurai was completely different than most people had, and still have in the west. Their complete lack of fear of death and their mental disciplines are what made them so effective on the battlefield.
Here's a guy who has no fear of death. And I dont mean, "It doesnt matter if I die. I'll go to heaven and be with God." And then overcomes his fear and goes to battle. I'm talking about a guy who spends great portions of his life removing his ability to feel fear.
It is a concept that most people in the west cant understand because of the main religion of our culture. Where there's always a slight doubt as to whether you're heading up or down.
The Samurai had no fear of this due to their outlooks on the art of Zen.

Now, the reason I think that the Katana is viewed as this awesome weapon, is because of what it represents. It represents the lack of fear that we'd all like to experience in our lives.

Next up, the Rapier.
It was generally only used by highly trained people, and even then it wasnt used in battle. Only duels. This was because it was too long to be a truly great weapon. It only really became popular as firearms were being phased in and swords were being phased out.
Beautiful weapon, just not too effective. It's the image of the aristocrat that people like. ie: The Scarlet Pimpernel, Zoro.

Middle Eastern weapons. My view:
The reason they havnt really gained much popularity in the west is due to the people who wielded them, namely, Muslims. Referring back to what I was saying about religion shaping the psyche, the main religions of the west usually viewed Islam as barbaric and evil. (Even though during the crusades the Muslims had a code of honour that they actually stuck to and it was the Crusaders who did the really barbaric things.) And of course, the weapons that these "barbarians" used were never really considered "acceptable/cool."
Dont believe me? Go and watch Disney's Aladin. Have a look at all the guards. Oh, and the modern media.

Urgh. I need sleep.

Too long to read version:
Katana's are mysterious.

*Disclaimer* I'm not saying anything bad about Muslims. Just pointing out how Islam can be viewed by the west.

 

[Macgyvercas]

Who cares? It's personal preference, like anything else. Some people like broadswords, some like sabres, some like claymores, some (like myself) like katanas. To each their own.

Completely off topic, but didn't a Samurai beat a Viking in Deadliest Warrior? I think the samurai had to use a kanabo to down the viking, but beat him nonetheless. Though I do remeber the katana did jack shit against the viking chainmail.

 

[Dr_Baron_von_Evilsatan]

Ah yes, every time I see one of these threads it reminds me of the BS episode of Deadliest Warrior with the Viking vs Samurai. That still pisses me off (only because some people actually believe that show to be 'science').

Anyways I see it simply as this. Both swords did well at what they were intended for. The problem with the katana is that it's just not made for standing up to Western armor or a shield. The main advantage of the longsword is that if it makes solid contact from a good swing, it's going to cause a good amount of damage, armor or not.


Too few people seems to care about broken bones or internal hemorrhaging. It's like if they don't see blood it doesn't count...which might account, somewhat, for the katana's popularity.

 

[Treblaine]

You cite cutting power as a factor & then say the curves distract you. The curves dictate the blades ability to cut effectively.

It's not the existence nor absence of a curve itself, it's the aesthetics of the curve, the type of curves. I just find it looks too wavy and naturalistic. Katana just looks like it's from the future, even though the design is hundreds of years old. It looks like a refined killing machine for a person who has trained their mind body and their very soul to kill effortlessly.

I have no idea which intrinsically cuts better but have you ever the phrase "it's not the arrow, it's the Indian"? At the time the western world really became familiar with Japanese weapons the samurai were the most pre-eminent sword fighters in the world, that (artistically speaking) infuses the weapon with a reputation. It's as much the swordsman that comes with the Katana that makes it so sought after.

A western style cavalry sabre - to me - leaves the impression of a guy with a huge moustache yelling CHHHAAAAAARGGE while impotently waving the sabre over their head.

When someone twirls a Colt Single Action Army revolver you get the impression of speed, and effortless accuracy... might not be the case but those that have wielded it before in fiction and non-fiction have left that reputation.

Consider the Japanese samurai films like Yojimbo and the Seven Samurai that have imbued the sword with a great potency. And when we are talking about art, there is that wider cultural impression that counts with not only the audience but the characters within the work. In Pulp Fiction when Butch is selecting weapons to face down some armed rapists nothing seems to instil more confidence in him than a samurai sword, more so than even a chainsaw.

The man that said "it's not the arrow, it's the Indian" has clearly never faced the Persians or for that matter the English

Yeah, they were called cowboys. The significance of that phrase is they widely used firearms yet were getting owned fairly often by often Bow wielding Indians, and to the few who suggested they should use bows instead of guns... lead to this phrase becoming so popular.

Ahh fair enough aesthetically its more pleasing to you. I dont know I find the medieval swords symetry and 'bareness' more appealing, it can be given ornateness but it works just as well bare. The Katana's kind of a one shot, one look, bland wee beasty to my eyes.

Yes the Colt gives the impression of speed & accuracy but that is all, in reality fan firing was pretty inaccurate to all but the best shooters at close range. I like my toys to perform
exactly like they do on the tin

Yeah, but never underestimate having the right swagger, if can win you fights without even firing a shot by convincing the enemy they are outmatched, that's the best way to win a fight.

Maybe that's why even the real life George S Patton always carried a Single Action army on his hip, pure intimidation and bravado. I doubt he'd ever actually use such a weapon over the M1 carbine he always had handy if ambushed by Germans, but it must do something for troop morale.

 

[LondonBeer]

The katana also can't pierce chainmail. I can just tell where this is going. It's probably less nerdy nerds who like the katana a whole bunch, not realizing it's the samurai code and not the weapon that's awesome (I guess? I don't really like either one all that much, to be honest). We're probably going to see a lot less katanas and more western swords in the coming years due to people who like katanas finding out they're overrated.

Show me a nerd who can wield a claymore!

I'd say it's probably because the katana is far easier to handle than a huge european sword due to lesser weight and smaller form. I agree that in direct combat against a european broadsword the katana would most likely be fucked.

So learning how to use a specialized slashing weapon is easier than learning how to use a big Scottish broadsword.

For some reason, I highly doubt you.

Katana is only specialised in the sense in that its impractical to do anything else other than slash.

'A big Scottish broadsword' ? Would that be the two-hander warswords or the renaissance periods baskethilted broadswords?

A warsword is incredibly hard to handle requiring unbelivable skill & agility. The footwork alone is akin to dancing. Ive seen wielders hit vegetable targets on the top of stakes & not hit the stakes. Ive seen them sweep a pike formation (for play, no pikes were wounded in the course of the programme (Although several fell off)). Comparing prancing around with a single purpose letter opener to using a blade twice the size and weight with same if not greater level of control and force is simply ludicrous.

The range of techniques alone are a different creature requiring all the technique and grace of the smaller form with the demands of the longer forms. The Japanese equivalent of the warswords the Naginata also requires more skill than that of the Katana.

You sound like the cult of the blade, a spear used properly requires far more skill than a blade. Simple physics dictates that. Youll work out why if you ever lift a weapon.

 

[NezumiiroKitsune]

A really high quality Katana is a weapon with great tensile strength, a litheness unsurpassed by any other long bladed weapon, and absolutely deadly in the hands of a rigiorously trained and disciplined swordmaster. It is primarily a slashing weapon, meaning it has some major downsides in the widest variety of swordsmanship, but for the art and style it was designed to accompany it is simply the most effective means of succeeding in battle against the opponents they had come up against. When a Samurai dedicated his life to practicing Iadio and the various combat forms the Japanese developed (of which there are too many to reasonably mention here), and bound himself psychologically to the blade as his soul, the combination developed a very impressive fighting force.

Now while I cannot attest that the Katana is superior in every respect and compared to later folding techniques and forging from spanish steel they became better challenged, they are certainly impressive pieces of weaponary. For their size and weight they can cut through, and maintain edge integrity, weapons greater than themselves and possess the potential to manipulate the weaknesses in plate armour, and when they are not found, the strength and wicked keeness to do significant damage to the armour itself. They are genuinely impressive weapons and the characters that are given them are supposed to possess the same intense and life consuming training that the samurai themselves went through and then some. I doubt anyone would say it's the swords doing that they are awesome.

If one was to create a character with ANY other bladed weapon however, I have no doubt that if they imposed the same aura of discipline and control they do to the Katana weilding counterparts, they could be just as and more awesome, because plenty of other bladed weapons in this world from similar era's with perseverance and mastery were just as deadly.

Also lots of nerds a weeaboos.

 

[MrJKapowey]

I like the image of the katana, but if I was in a fight then I would want this...

Spoiler: prepare for mild epicness

[http://img7.imageshack.us/i/longswordg.jpg/]

 

[Mr.PlanetEater]

Because a lot of nerds enjoy either Ninjas, Anime, or at least something from Japan so naturally we're going to see a lot of Katana love. As to why it appears in a lot of movies is simple, most American and British directors feel the Katana is an exotic weapon as it's one that a lot of Europeans weren't familiar with. It's the same thing with other oriental blades like the Philippine blades or Chinese blades.

That and it looks really damn good, but I still prefer either a Spanish style Rapier, a Claymore, or a Viking Longsword because honestly Viking > Ninja when it comes to badassness.

 

[WOPR]

Show me a nerd who can wield a claymore!

I'd say it's probably because the katana is far easier to handle than a huge european sword due to lesser weight and smaller form. I agree that in direct combat against a european broadsword the katana would most likely be fucked.

...Me?

*cough* sorry that's not fair
I'm a nerd with nerd friends that love combating eachother (boffer/airsoft)

I shouldn't say I can "wield" a claymore because I've never tried; but I can pick one up and carry it.

I will say though I prefer katanas and balisongs

but my perfect type of sword; I don't know what it's called but it's a blade that's sharp on both sides, supposedly light-weight, and has a handle like a night-stick (Capcom's character Strider wields one, but I still don't know it's name)

EDIT: I say Boffer/Airsoft because we want to combat, not kill eachother
we also have nerf but that's for those stupid battles where half of us have nerf guns and half have boffers and the half with the guns have to come into the house we set up for them and it's kinda assassin-like... Fun game, too bad I couldn't think of a name other then "Counter-Strike" at the time *sighs*

 

[whitewolf35]

Yes the katana tends to be exaggerated at times, but it is still likely the greatest sword societies have ever produced. Japan had access to some of the greatest quality of steel at the time, the most powerful being damascus steel. The samurai were so faithful and dedicated to the weapons that they spent several hours a day practicing specific cuts to become great defenders of the feudal lords they served. The sword is extremely well balanced with heavier steel at the tip and lighter steel near the handle not to mention the steel was folded several thousand times to make an edge so sharp that it could slice through multiple human bodies at once.
It is also superior to western swords because it could cut so easily. Western designs like the broadsword (if blocked) would cause the metal to rattle with vibrations and often throw the user off-balance while the katana was designed to absorb any blows so the samurai could counter-attack with great ease.
There are many other factors including the blood groove which made the sword cleaning during and after battle and I don't know how much people are familiar with the quick draw technique but let me just say this: quick drawing became such a fanatic move for the samurai that it received it's own art.

 

[Asmundr]

I personally like the katana but am a fan of western made swords (Broadswords for me ^^). The katana is just so overused in flashy movies and games that its gained a reputation as being powerful and elegant weapon.

A Rapier is also elegant as is a Claymore or any other weapon that is finely made and properly wielded.

 

[Nailz]

This has been explained on many documentary, It its very strong and is one of the most sharp and effective swords ever made, as for the samurai, as seen on the deadliest warrior was only topped by the spartan in pretty much because they could not get past that awesome huge shield.You see alot of anime and shows with samurai doing their own thing witch is kind of an insult because the name means to serve, they were to protect royalty and very important people, and to become a samurai was to be born into it. In a way its an insult to the real samurai.

I have read some comments saying Japanese steel is very weak and that is very incorrect, it is one of the strongest steels in the world. thing is, when they were making sword they noticed something.... hard steel is to brittle and would shatter easy but was very sharp, while the soft steel didnt break but was very dull so they combined them. So you know when you see that wavy pattern on a katana's blade edge thats the hard metal connecting with the soft, also the combination is also what gives it its curve, when cooled down the blade curves.

my personal favorite swords is tied between a broad sword and a katata.

Thank you for saying this.
The Japanese steel used to make katana is of an unparalleled quality even today, every single fool who called it weak is simply demonstrating why they should not involve themselves in this conversation. The forging process is unique and fascinating, involves a level of skill which most weapons being crafted do not.

Also OT:
The book of five rings.
Miyamoto Musashi.
That is all.

 

[Manchubot]

People always seem to love the swords, and in games always role with swords where is the mace love?

 

[MrAkuma201]

The Katana what can I say its a great weapon with lots of different ways too use it. Masters of this weapon can take more then 10 to 15 year too master some of the fighting styles and on top of that they are awesome XD