On the Katana and it's wielder.

[VelvetHorror]

This:

 

[Atmos Duality]

Indeed. To explain the process would be like asking someone to fold a peice of paper over and over till they couldn't fold it anymore. Then asking them to rip it.
The slight radius of the blade makes it ideal as a slashing weapon, but little else.

Now, the two most valuable weapons that any Martial Artist will tell you to learn are the simplist. A staff and a knife. Both are far more versatile and can be used offensivel and defensively. Sorry, I've seem to gone off-topic.

Reach, leverage, and speed.
It's amazing what one can do with a staff.

Katanas were well-made because Japan had precious little usable iron to work with (ironic, considering the geological location of their island), but they were NOT wonder-swords.
The forms based around them are elegant and the form of the weapon is visually appealing (as is its "ease of use" to nerds everywhere), but in the end it's just a lateral edge.

Among good bladed weaponry, I still respect Toledo Steel far more. They had the advantage of being able to trade for Switzerland's high grade iron (among the best in the world) and it shows.

 

[Random berk]

Seems to me that although the katana is a better offensive weapon due to its cutting power, it takes a tremendously skilled swordsman to unlock its full potential. If I wanted to learn how to fight with a sword, I'd want it to be a single handed weapon that could be used to quickly slash, stab and parry while leaving my left hand free to use a shield, or a knife, or even a pistol. Something like a sabre, jian or cutlass.

 

[linkvegeta]

This has been explained on many documentary, It its very strong and is one of the most sharp and effective swords ever made, as for the samurai, as seen on the deadliest warrior was only topped by the spartan in pretty much because they could not get past that awesome huge shield.You see alot of anime and shows with samurai doing their own thing witch is kind of an insult because the name means to serve, they were to protect royalty and very important people, and to become a samurai was to be born into it. In a way its an insult to the real samurai.

I have read some comments saying Japanese steel is very weak and that is very incorrect, it is one of the strongest steels in the world. thing is, when they were making sword they noticed something.... hard steel is to brittle and would shatter easy but was very sharp, while the soft steel didnt break but was very dull so they combined them. So you know when you see that wavy pattern on a katana's blade edge thats the hard metal connecting with the soft, also the combination is also what gives it its curve, when cooled down the blade curves.

my personal favorite swords is tied between a broad sword and a katata.

Thank you for saying this.
The Japanese steel used to make katana is of an unparalleled quality even today, every single fool who called it weak is simply demonstrating why they should not involve themselves in this conversation. The forging process is unique and fascinating, involves a level of skill which most weapons being crafted do not.

Also OT:
The book of five rings.
Miyamoto Musashi.
That is all.

Yeah they work their butts off, i saw how they get the ore, they have to work in a hot room for about 48 hours straight with no sleep. That is pretty intense, then it takes months to make an average quality katana. Then they test it out to see how good it it, it is kinda interesting, they get something that would mimic or (use prisoners back in the day) a human body, then they would strike to see how many bodies it would cut in one swing, i think the average is 2 to 3 bodies then it would be called a 3 body sword, or whatever depending on how many it cut.

So yeah it is a really interesting process. Glad someone else knows their stuff.

 

[Peteron]

I think that is just because katana are used in most anime, seeing as they are Asian. Thus, these nerds will naturally lean towards them. I am more of a claymore person, but that is just me.

 

[LondonBeer]

Which begs the question :-

We know that chainmail is all but impervious to a cutting edge,(butchers & fish mongers still use chainmail mitts) requiring great force to break the linkages, how resilient would Samurai armour have been given it was designed to stop a cutting curved edge not a flat edge with a thrusting potential?

Would the lamellar absorb the forces or fracture?

The advantage of chain mail is its flexibility (which is why it is still used today) but the problem is how it's only really good against glancing blows or blades with little force behind them. Fine if you are a butcher and you aren't dealing with actual attacks, just the chance that a blade might slip and drag over your hand.

Arrows glide straight through chain-mail. Chain mail had to be of milder steel/iron just to stitch it together, while a sword could be steel. Plate armour is only slightly heavier and will completely protect against all but the most powerful arrows and most forceful melee weapons.

To absorb the force you need a hard ridged plate that will spread the force from a razor edge over a wide 10x6 inch square. Soft body armour will never protect you from high power rifle rounds as even if the fabric was utterly indestructible the bullet would just force the fabric in through the bullet hole. Even if the chain mail held up, a good swing with a samurai sword may very well cut underneath the mail from the force alone!

No its still effective, it doesnt stop force though, only the cutting edge. Plate & mail are a combination you couldnt wear plate only without leaving your joints & groin exposed.

The first good swing would bust out a few rings. The problem there is two fold. In Scotland the Wapinschaw was a yearly requirement of fighting men not at arms to demonstrate both skill and wargear. Amidst competition, the men would each display a war spear shod in iron, 12 arrows & a jack. A padded jacket usually an inch thick of columated linen stuffed with straw, down, paper, velvet (The last two were for kings ) was a neccesity to war.

Under that mail is a padded jacket that not only absorbs the blow but negates any edge that does make it into the surface. So padded jack for the win.

Secondly mail as we use it & as armies fielded it to peasant soldiers was un-rivetted. Rivetted mail is considerably harder to break than its poor mans cousin & 6 in 1 pattern mail even more so. 6 in 1 was regarded as good as rivetted mail & replaced it due to the ease of replacing rings sans rivets. 6 in 1 rivetted was very rare indeed due to cost time & the weight involved.

Even then a small cut from a blade meant to cut you in half, and a weaker hit from a broader stroke compared to the flat smaller impact area of a long blade usually heavier & faster would still suffer. Again the sword of the west is more fit for the purpose.

You cite cutting power as a factor & then say the curves distract you. The curves dictate the blades ability to cut effectively.

It's not the existence nor absence of a curve itself, it's the aesthetics of the curve, the type of curves. I just find it looks too wavy and naturalistic. Katana just looks like it's from the future, even though the design is hundreds of years old. It looks like a refined killing machine for a person who has trained their mind body and their very soul to kill effortlessly.

I have no idea which intrinsically cuts better but have you ever the phrase "it's not the arrow, it's the Indian"? At the time the western world really became familiar with Japanese weapons the samurai were the most pre-eminent sword fighters in the world, that (artistically speaking) infuses the weapon with a reputation. It's as much the swordsman that comes with the Katana that makes it so sought after.

A western style cavalry sabre - to me - leaves the impression of a guy with a huge moustache yelling CHHHAAAAAARGGE while impotently waving the sabre over their head.


When someone twirls a Colt Single Action Army revolver you get the impression of speed, and effortless accuracy... might not be the case but those that have wielded it before in fiction and non-fiction have left that reputation.

Consider the Japanese samurai films like Yojimbo and the Seven Samurai that have imbued the sword with a great potency. And when we are talking about art, there is that wider cultural impression that counts with not only the audience but the characters within the work. In Pulp Fiction when Butch is selecting weapons to face down some armed rapists nothing seems to instil more confidence in him than a samurai sword, more so than even a chainsaw.

The man that said "it's not the arrow, it's the Indian" has clearly never faced the Persians or for that matter the English

Yeah, they were called cowboys. The significance of that phrase is they widely used firearms yet were getting owned fairly often by often Bow wielding Indians, and to the few who suggested they should use bows instead of guns... lead to this phrase becoming so popular.

Ahh fair enough aesthetically its more pleasing to you. I dont know I find the medieval swords symetry and 'bareness' more appealing, it can be given ornateness but it works just as well bare. The Katana's kind of a one shot, one look, bland wee beasty to my eyes.

Yes the Colt gives the impression of speed & accuracy but that is all, in reality fan firing was pretty inaccurate to all but the best shooters at close range. I like my toys to perform
exactly like they do on the tin

Yeah, but never underestimate having the right swagger, if can win you fights without even firing a shot by convincing the enemy they are outmatched, that's the best way to win a fight.

Maybe that's why even the real life George S Patton always carried a Single Action army on his hip, pure intimidation and bravado. I doubt he'd ever actually use such a weapon over the M1 carbine he always had handy if ambushed by Germans, but it must do something for troop morale.

Does this mean in 300 years were gonna get weeabo half-wits talking about how Pattons .45 could shoot through Tiger tanks .

 

[Nick Angelici]

Katanas are very difficult to make and take a long time, this process refines the blade making it one of the sharpest swords ever. maybe thats why?

 

[Jazzyjazz2323]

Which begs the question :-

We know that chainmail is all but impervious to a cutting edge,(butchers & fish mongers still use chainmail mitts) requiring great force to break the linkages, how resilient would Samurai armour have been given it was designed to stop a cutting curved edge not a flat edge with a thrusting potential?

Would the lamellar absorb the forces or fracture?

The advantage of chain mail is its flexibility (which is why it is still used today) but the problem is how it's only really good against glancing blows or blades with little force behind them. Fine if you are a butcher and you aren't dealing with actual attacks, just the chance that a blade might slip and drag over your hand.

Arrows glide straight through chain-mail. Chain mail had to be of milder steel/iron just to stitch it together, while a sword could be steel. Plate armour is only slightly heavier and will completely protect against all but the most powerful arrows and most forceful melee weapons.

To absorb the force you need a hard ridged plate that will spread the force from a razor edge over a wide 10x6 inch square. Soft body armour will never protect you from high power rifle rounds as even if the fabric was utterly indestructible the bullet would just force the fabric in through the bullet hole. Even if the chain mail held up, a good swing with a samurai sword may very well cut underneath the mail from the force alone!

No its still effective, it doesnt stop force though, only the cutting edge. Plate & mail are a combination you couldnt wear plate only without leaving your joints & groin exposed.

The first good swing would bust out a few rings. The problem there is two fold. In Scotland the Wapinschaw was a yearly requirement of fighting men not at arms to demonstrate both skill and wargear. Amidst competition, the men would each display a war spear shod in iron, 12 arrows & a jack. A padded jacket usually an inch thick of columated linen stuffed with straw, down, paper, velvet (The last two were for kings ) was a neccesity to war.

Under that mail is a padded jacket that not only absorbs the blow but negates any edge that does make it into the surface. So padded jack for the win.

Secondly mail as we use it & as armies fielded it to peasant soldiers was un-rivetted. Rivetted mail is considerably harder to break than its poor mans cousin & 6 in 1 pattern mail even more so. 6 in 1 was regarded as good as rivetted mail & replaced it due to the ease of replacing rings sans rivets. 6 in 1 rivetted was very rare indeed due to cost time & the weight involved.

Even then a small cut from a blade meant to cut you in half, and a weaker hit from a broader stroke compared to the flat smaller impact area of a long blade usually heavier & faster would still suffer. Again the sword of the west is more fit for the purpose.

You cite cutting power as a factor & then say the curves distract you. The curves dictate the blades ability to cut effectively.

It's not the existence nor absence of a curve itself, it's the aesthetics of the curve, the type of curves. I just find it looks too wavy and naturalistic. Katana just looks like it's from the future, even though the design is hundreds of years old. It looks like a refined killing machine for a person who has trained their mind body and their very soul to kill effortlessly.

I have no idea which intrinsically cuts better but have you ever the phrase "it's not the arrow, it's the Indian"? At the time the western world really became familiar with Japanese weapons the samurai were the most pre-eminent sword fighters in the world, that (artistically speaking) infuses the weapon with a reputation. It's as much the swordsman that comes with the Katana that makes it so sought after.

A western style cavalry sabre - to me - leaves the impression of a guy with a huge moustache yelling CHHHAAAAAARGGE while impotently waving the sabre over their head.


When someone twirls a Colt Single Action Army revolver you get the impression of speed, and effortless accuracy... might not be the case but those that have wielded it before in fiction and non-fiction have left that reputation.

Consider the Japanese samurai films like Yojimbo and the Seven Samurai that have imbued the sword with a great potency. And when we are talking about art, there is that wider cultural impression that counts with not only the audience but the characters within the work. In Pulp Fiction when Butch is selecting weapons to face down some armed rapists nothing seems to instil more confidence in him than a samurai sword, more so than even a chainsaw.

The man that said "it's not the arrow, it's the Indian" has clearly never faced the Persians or for that matter the English

Yeah, they were called cowboys. The significance of that phrase is they widely used firearms yet were getting owned fairly often by often Bow wielding Indians, and to the few who suggested they should use bows instead of guns... lead to this phrase becoming so popular.

Ahh fair enough aesthetically its more pleasing to you. I dont know I find the medieval swords symetry and 'bareness' more appealing, it can be given ornateness but it works just as well bare. The Katana's kind of a one shot, one look, bland wee beasty to my eyes.

Yes the Colt gives the impression of speed & accuracy but that is all, in reality fan firing was pretty inaccurate to all but the best shooters at close range. I like my toys to perform
exactly like they do on the tin

Yeah, but never underestimate having the right swagger, if can win you fights without even firing a shot by convincing the enemy they are outmatched, that's the best way to win a fight.

Maybe that's why even the real life George S Patton always carried a Single Action army on his hip, pure intimidation and bravado. I doubt he'd ever actually use such a weapon over the M1 carbine he always had handy if ambushed by Germans, but it must do something for troop morale.

Does this mean in 300 years were gonna get weeabo half-wits talking about how Pattons .45 could shoot through Tiger tanks .

Oh god no...

 

[technoted]

In trained hands the Katana was easily one of the most lethal weapons, able to cut through a body in one quick swipe, however that was in the hands of a very trained warrior. However if you gave it to half the people who worship it, they would probably break the sword after 3 or 4 swings, the precision required to get an effective blow with that sword is unbelievable.

However the sword itself is rather overated, it doesn't even scratch chainmail which is the armour they were using in Europe at the time, the blade constantly needs to be sharpened and breaks rather easily compared to other swords.

Personally give me something like a battle axe or a broadsword, that way even when the blade dulls I still have something capable of easily dispatching another person.

 

[Okysho]

Indeed. To explain the process would be like asking someone to fold a peice of paper over and over till they couldn't fold it anymore. Then asking them to rip it.
The slight radius of the blade makes it ideal as a slashing weapon, but little else.

Now, the two most valuable weapons that any Martial Artist will tell you to learn are the simplist. A staff and a knife. Both are far more versatile and can be used offensively and defensively. Sorry, I've seem to gone off-topic.

This right here,

As much as I like swords, a staff or a knife is much better in terms of versatility, making it ideal for multiple situations. I still love swords, so if I got my hands on a chinese Jian made of titanium and Katana thickness, I'd be set. Those swords flow like beauties, but the Katana was good for it's area as well as it's era, plus they just look good.

You have to remember that the Samurai devoted their lives to mastering their skills. Everything was highly ritualized. I know it's not the best comparison, but I'm too lazy to google anything right now. Compare Braveheart to The Last Samurai. (Yes that's a claymore, it just doesn't look like it) They're chocked full of historical references and do a pretty good job of explaining what both a highland warrior and a Samurai are like.

I like the Katana as well as the claymore so I'm not going to take a side on this one, but the Buster sword will always be my favourite "stupidly huge" weapon, despite being fictional

 

[Tiny116]

I think a lot of the bad-ass imagery with the katana is down to the martial art it is related to. Aikido? You know Samurai. Aren't they supposed to be some of the most accomplished swordsmen in history?

 

[Housebroken Lunatic]

The shape of the weapon is integral to piercing the armour how you hold you body has nothing to do with it.

Okay, the bolded part is just plain silly. How you hold your body and how you direct the force of a thrust has EVERYTHING to do with being able to penetrate an armoured target.

The sword is just a tool, it's not a directional kinetic force of it's own. The force of a thrust or lunge comes from the body of the wielder, the sharp tip is just a way to be able to focus that force into a single small point and thus have a bigger chance att penetrating the target.

Even hand to hand martial artists know this, and it is the same reason why some punches only bruise a person while others cause bones to break and even internal organs to burst, killing the person struck by them. It's all about directing force and momentum and focusing them correctly.

How well do you think a bullet would be able to pierce anything if it hadn't any gunpowder to propel it forward or a barrel to direct it?

It wouldn't. It would just be an inert wad of lead uneable to penetrate anything.

Studying the physics involved in melee combat helps quite a lot to understand what can and can't be done with a close combat weapon.

I suggest you research the term 'field plate' for more information. You seen to think jousting plate is for the battlefield.

I never said that.

The video gives ample demonstration of the artforms as the exist today from their past. Both have had 600-700 years of decline and 'inbreeding' to degenerate into a game of tag with sticks.

And thus doesn't represent the original forms in the slightest. "Sportsversions" can't be compared to training for actual combat. Thus making the video kind of irrelevant.

You raise a good point though why do the Kendo fencers wear so much armour to protect from a simple bokken ? Surely if they are so skilled they can easily deflect or parry the blows. Are they American football players

Kendo isn't practice with a bokken other than for kata training. You use a shinai during actual competiion and sparring.

The reason why you use armour? Well, have a friend hit you over the head, your gut or across your arms or jab you in the throat with a hockey stick or something similar and you'll realize why kendo practicioners wear armour during sparring and competition.

If they didn't, it would hurt and probably break bones and cause concussions when they are struck.

As I said in a previous post: kendo is basically a somewhat more graceful and disciplined form of your average ice-hockey brawl. You compete for trying to make a correct strike and earn points from the judges, but you also have to do what you can to stop your opponent from doing the same. That means tackling and dodging, as well as getting struck several times incorrectly which doesn't award any points. Doing all that without any armour would be kind of unsettling to say the least (and probably painful as hell).

That said, as long as you use armour, it's actually quite fun. I mean, you get to hit people with sticks without holding back too much!

The reason the fencer wears the chest and mask is that true fencing killshots used to aim at face & heart a dangerous thing with steel rod blunt or not.

Yes. But when it comes to getting poked with a somewhat flacid steel rod in the body, it's not really the same thing as getting beat up with a hockey-stick like weapon. Hence the need for a more heavy and durable armour and helmet.

How exactly do you suggest we get two guys to attack each other realistically with the intention to kill with swords and katana and the appriopriate levels of skill? Also as well you claim to know the 'individual is all' so theyd have to be twins.

I don't.

Im just saying, real swordsmanship is about killing people when it all comes down to it. Trying to compare different forms by looking at inbred and bastardized sports and mock battles wouldn't exactly give an accurate view of how it would all play out if real warriors went at eachother with skills and tools intended for killing instead of harmless sport and entertainment.

 

[Kelethor]

Gotta get back
Back to the past
Samurai Jack
Watch out
Gotta get back
Back to the past
Samurai Jack
Jack Jack Jack Jack Jack

Spoiler

Wo-Waacha!

Katana's are made with steel, where as the western world used iron.

Nuff said.

 

[velcrokidneyz]

I think it has more to do with the honor and the culture behind it, samurai were supposed to be reserved and humble unlike what i picture of knights. I guess its the idea behind the samurai and katana more than anything, and i mean you have to admit, it is a little bad ass.

 

[stormcrow5]

Wall of text not good first thing in morning, but if i had a sword i would pick a bastard sword or a claymore/greatswrod kinda thing

 

[Housebroken Lunatic]

The examples I've seen were made of leather and wood. Straight up mate, mother fucking wood! Anyone who uses a carbon steel sword and dresses in bamboo had better learn to dodge.

The examples you've seen are most likely ornamental display trinkets and not actual battlefield armour.

I've never heard of any example whereactual battlefield armour (i.e armour that was intended for actual use and protection) to be composed of leather and wood. Early examples had leather and bronze plates, and the latter and more common examples had eather and iron plates in different configurations (lamellar patterns weren't uncommon since they provided flexibility).

Wood might do for something you keep as an ornamental and decorative piece in your home, but that's pretty much all it would've been useful for.

 

[LondonBeer]

This:

You sir & the gentleman in the video are both thoroughly awesome.

In addition the useage of 'knocked a cocked hat' means victory