On Used Games, etc.

[ralfy]

The speaker argues that the game industry is heading towards more incomplete games (i.e., you have to pay for DLCs to get all available features, several of them necessary, even after you pay full price for the game) and challenging the sale of used games by claiming that it hurts the industry (which according to the speaker isn't true). The only way to deal with this matter is for gamers not to give in to what these game companies want.

See the video for details:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePNHfnR-SwA

 

[GiglameshSoulEater]

For a start, you can imbed videos with . You can edit your post to add more detail to the OP if you have additional thoughts.
Secondly, its probably best to tell us your opinion, and ask a question or whatever for discussion value. A low post member posting a link with little else looks rather suspicous (though I am somewhat paranoid in that regard).

EDIT (because denseworm is technically correct, if harsh):

Bit of a shame that helpful old Giglamesh thoroughly slapped the OPs wrist without once mentioning the OP itself. Is that not warranting of a 'warning' or even a ban, Escapist?

Anyways, I don't really care about that very much.

On topic, provided they work I have no trouble with used games, heck, used games are the only avenue I will have to ever play titles like Wind Waker, Tales of Symphonia or SSX3 again!

Thats because there isn't much to the OP than 'watch this.', and if I get banned for trying to be helpful... well, that somewhat suggests to stay away.

Though I don't have time to watch the video, an over-reliance on DLC can be frustrating. Pay-to-Win DLC, however, is particularly unforgiveable. DLC on the whole seems to be shorter than expansion packs, but just as (or more) expensive in general, reflecting the trend in modern gaming for shorter, more expensive games.
(And there you go, denseWorm.)

 

[Rednog]

Yea I'm sorry but I'm not going to watch a 40 minute video from some random schlup. If you're going to make a thread make a point and then we can move from there.

Addressing your short snippet, I really can't think of any game that was "incomplete" without DLC. Most DLCs end up just being extras that don't influence the game and are just fluff.

 

[disgruntledgamer]

For some reason Publishers got it in their head that every used game sale = a lost sale and they think they deserve a piece of that pie they have no entitlement to.

1. Fact used game sales drive New game sales. Many people trade in their games for new games.

2. Fact most people who buy a used game would not buy new anyway. All those people you see rummaging through the bargain bins aren't looking to buy new, so anything they buy isn't taking sale away and may bring them to the franchise if they like the game.

 

[ralfy]

My opinion is found in the last sentence of my first paragraph. I've nothing else to add to that, but you're free to give yours.

The point of this thread is found in my first paragraph. The main topic is the last sentence.

My "short snippet" does not cover all points in the video. From what I remember, examples of DLCs that are needed to complete games were given in the video.

There's a connection between not wanting used games to be sold and the use of DLCs. More details can be seen in the video.

Digruntled Gamer shared two important points. There are some more in the video, including analogies with other media sold, including selling works whole or charging more to have it completed as well as selling used copies.

The issue isn't that used games won't work. It's that publishers want the sale of used games to be illegal.

The implication is that publishers only want buyers to own the license to the game, similar to what has been taking place for some software during the last few years. One can also see connection between this and, for example, the recent issue concerning Bruce Willis and his iTunes collection.

 

[ohnoitsabear]

I think publishers need to look at stopping used games in a different way. Instead of using online passes or excessive DLC to try to discourage people from buying used, they should try to make a game that people don't want to get rid of. Doing things like having a meaty single player campaign (short and uninteresting single player campaigns, are, imo, the biggest reason why people sell their games, especially right after release), having a fun multiplayer with regular, free updates, and having many things such as extra characters or cosmetic items or such that publishers charge money for now being unlockables that you have to work for.

With these things, people will be less likely to sell their games, and therefore, people won't be able to buy them used, and thus will get a new copy. Additionally, having a lower price point will encourage people to buy new and discourage people from selling their games, because they won't get as much out of it.

But of course, doing this would mean giving players the game they want to play and not getting pissed off at publishers, so its obviously not an option.

 

[Epona]

He's correct, you DO OWN your games. Don't let publishers brainwash you into believing that you do not unless you want to help make it reality by means of law.

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

I agree with pretty much everything he says. Except all DLC being bad. But apart from that...those were already my opinions.

Have to give props though for actually owning a game store and refusing to stock certain games. Undedicated boycotters can't control themselves when a CoD comes out, and this guy loses money over his stance regularly. That is the attitude we need.

 

[ralfy]

Jim Logic at work there. You forgot details. And focused on half the truth rather than the whole truth.

I'm not sure, but I think the video deals with these "whole truths," too.

Correct, but what happens to the used game that got sold to the store?
They just keep it forever?
No they sell them. They cannibalize new sales in the process. Gamestop will actively prevent new sales by forcing used. Once there is decent amount of used copies in rotation they will stop ordering new games and just sell used cutting off the developer/publisher. In other words. They cost them sales.

But these apply to all games, including those that are no longer sold by the company.

Very correct, but once again only half the truth. Used games doesn't = Bargain bins. Bargain bins will exist without used games. The PC market is prime example of that.

I think this is a minor point.

A used market prevents the publisher from making these sales the PC market has because the Stores are not interested in competing with them when they can lock them out.

Now you bring in entitlement and the fact of the matter the publishers are completely within their rights to changes how their product is managed. They cannot retrospectively go in and change the deals that have already been made, but they can setup the terms of the future deals however way they like. Its their product, their right. The same right you are invoking with used.

But the rule is supposed to apply to even old games, right?

And the issue is not even entitlement but ownership. That is, more companies want more products (not just games) to be "licensed" to the "owner". That means you only have the right to access them. The point that they "can set up the terms of the future deals however way they like" is the point. So is the argument that "it's their product, their right," even though this argument is questionable, as explained in the video.

Drop in sales? That claim was addressed in the video, too.

Finally, one more point that was missed by everyone who didn't bother to watch the video: several games require online activation or even Internet access to play. What happens when the company closes down, together with its servers?

 

[Stavros Dimou]

I've stopped playing on consoles years ago so I don't know if my point is relevant in console gaming.

On PC most games become so cheap after some time,used games are trivial.
I mean hey,if on Steam I can buy a 2010 game for 10 euros,and a 2003 game for 3 euros,why bother buying a used one ?

But I see how used games market is important on consoles. Once upon a time at the cartridges days I bought many used games and traded them,because prices where falling very slowly,like a game would have full price even 2 years after its release... In 2000 I bought an Ocarina of Time N64 cartridge used for the equivalent of 25 euros,while its new price was the equivalent of 69 euros.

Question to console gamers: Does game prices still take so long to drop on consoles ?

 

[Silverbane7]

its dependant on area consumption and competiton usualy. (in reguards to console games prices)
in my area, 360's are the dominant console. their used games are more expensive becasue there are more users for them.
while the PS3 games are cheaper. (which realy should be the other way round to my brain, as more users means faster supplies...but from a cash point, more users means more buyers so i guess they prefer that logic)

i wish people would stop holding up gamestop as the master example...i dont have a gamestop near me. i dont even have a gamestop in my county, may not even have one in my COUNTRY for frack sake! i live in the UK, so our closest equivelent is GAME. which is flogging off games cheap as can be, no matter the current console.
they dont use shrink wrap to fob us off with reused as new.
they have regular sales to clear out the older stuff while still selling lots of new items, and they have nice visible lables saying things like 'ask shop staff about availability of DLC' so even the daftest of buyers cant say that they were conned into buying reused instead of new becasue they assumed their DLC and online components were still part of the game when they bougt it cheaper used.

in my local game, they offer you both new and used. they dont push ether one as better, they let you, the customer decide.
they rarely tell you not to buy something (allthough we did recently have one time the manager had to reccomend that the lady considering buying a VITA go and check up a bit more befor going ahead with a purchace, becasue she thought 3G was some new way to display things...hadnt got a ps3 or even internet at home and was totaly clueless to what she was looking at...but had been told by her child that he 'want one of THOSE! its shiny' or something like that lol)
and they are usualy well informed about the latest tech and patches ect (even if i am the one telling them about the latest sims-related goofs lol)

back to the console games.
sport games drop in price drasticaly compared to other games. RPG games hold their ground and end up costing more for longer. Niche games are the worst when they are not casual style ones, becasue they know you are stuck buying them at the price listed...after all, you are likely to be the only one buying it.

where console games come into their most cut throat (to my mind) is the local indipendant. the guys that sell old gen i mean.
i can buy a new gen game of the same make/genere for the same price as an old gen version.
(ie, i could buy harvest moon on DS used from game, for the same genre i have to pay sometimes twice as much for a gamecube version and once you go to SNES or N64, its simply tagged as 'ask for price')

personaly, i dont care about the 'you cannot use multiplayer on used games' type becasue i dont use multiplayer.
i can understand why it anoys others though. at least (when its not an EA game) you can still buy and use the non multiplayer DLC (did that with saints row3. never used the online pass code, but can still download and use the DLC thats not multiplayer)

i like used games. becasue i have a limited income and limited social life so used games allows me to try new types of games.
i do buy new. i also buy used.
if its a game i know i will want, i buy new when i am able, otherwise i wait for a sale and get it then.
i would be stuck buying from what you guys call thrift shops, if my local GAME was stopped from selling used, and wouldnt be able to afford ANY new games at all if that happend, simply becasue i cannot afford it.

maybe americans who want to buy used should stick to gamestop and those who want new should by via the net? cut out gamestop alltogether?

 

[CannibalCorpses]

snip

What happened when any services shut down? Almost all games use some sort of service today with them. What happens when they shut down?
Well all your games need power. What happens when the power goes?
When you decide to make this a "What if" scenario discussion, then you have no arguement.
What happens when my disk breaks? Absolutely nothing in my case because I bought digital. You really want to compare the chances of the disk breaking with company going down?

I bought mercenaries 2 brand new but because it was quite some time after release it didn't take long before all the servers were taken down. As a consequence of this the game crashes when it searches for the online features. I literally have to disconnect from the internet to play the game now. Thats to play the single player aswell.

Your list is a silly distraction from the reality of the problem. The only valid point is the broken disk and if that happens to me i pirate the game.

 

[Yopaz]

Used sales cut into profits of publishers. We have the right to sell products we own. the industry is whining and gives us Day 1 DLC, we whine over that.

It all boils down to this: The industry wants to look out for their own best and so does the consumer. Each party got the right to do what they want with their product, each of us got the right to complain what the other party does and each of us will always do.

I could make an effort to build more on this, but it's all been said, we've been over this a thousand times. We want cheaper games they want more money.

 

[CannibalCorpses]

I've stopped playing on consoles years ago so I don't know if my point is relevant in console gaming.

On PC most games become so cheap after some time,used games are trivial.
I mean hey,if on Steam I can buy a 2010 game for 10 euros,and a 2003 game for 3 euros,why bother buying a used one ?

But I see how used games market is important on consoles. Once upon a time at the cartridges days I bought many used games and traded them,because prices where falling very slowly,like a game would have full price even 2 years after its release... In 2000 I bought an Ocarina of Time N64 cartridge used for the equivalent of 25 euros,while its new price was the equivalent of 69 euros.

Question to console gamers: Does game prices still take so long to drop on consoles ?

40 quid brand new and then anywhere down to 5 quid the year after usually. Some games like CoD hold their value for longer than everything else but the majority drop quickly after 3 months and then plummet after 6. With trade ins the PC and console market are very similar in price although the console has the edge because a brand new game at 40 quid can sell for 28 back to the store in a week. Thats 12 quid for a brand new release. PC games are usually around the 25 quid mark with no resale value

 

[ralfy]

I did not answer to your video. I answered to the guy right here. I am not impressed by the video.

You need to because many of your points were addressed by the video.

Fact: Retailers gets bigger profits from used games sales because they dont need to pay the developer while selling the exact same product as them. Just cheaper because they can cut them out. They have a cash incentive to sell used over new. And the fact of the matter is that they do. Gamestop has made a business out preventing new sales so they can sell the used. Sometimes directly selling used as new. This is a fact. Why the heck do you think Gamestop has shrink wrapping equipment in their stores?

My understanding is that significant numbers of copies of used games are sold by buyers, not retailers.

When you say "But these apply to all games, including those that are no longer sold by the company." you missed the damm point. They are no longer sold because the stores stop ordering new copies. Because new copies compete with their used copies that are in rotation. Again look at PC market. Not a problem to get old games here. And I am not just talking digital. Even in retail I the chances of me finding older games is the same as the used market.

I am referring to old games that are no longer sold because the company closed or no longer sells or even supports it. The video also refers to services for currently sold games that have been closed. See for yourself.

As for your non-point at the end.

What happened when any services shut down? Almost all games use some sort of service today with them. What happens when they shut down?
Well all your games need power. What happens when the power goes?
When you decide to make this a "What if" scenario discussion, then you have no arguement.
What happens when my disk breaks? Absolutely nothing in my case because I bought digital. You really want to compare the chances of the disk breaking with company going down?

The video gives examples, and you are free to show how they are not actual.

Also, in case you didn't notice, your argument works BOTH WAYS.

So much for my "non-point at the end."