One Book Shelf: Censorship Warfare

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Something Amyss

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Sarge034 said:
It has been banned from the store, no? Or did I miss something and they're still selling it?
A store not stocking something isn't banning. That's false equivocation.

Very rarely, and only in a "song and dance" kindda way. They're taking great pains to try and get away from it.
I must be reading way different articles than you. But sure, we'll go with that.

Could it be that it's gaming news and this is a gaming news outlet?
How often do they cover non-Magic card games? I can think of two articles offhand.

It's almost like personal feelings shouldn't get in the way of a lawful business.
Can you show me some links to where you criticised them for this, then?

"card/roleplaying game"not stocked" is not a news story.

Secondhand Revenant said:
Good point. There we have a business taking an explicit 'fuck you' side to plenty of potential customers.
There are a lot of such examples, especially when it comes to gays.

Thing is, my position remains the same: they can do what they want, but that doesn't mean I will give them my money. Which is what I thought the internet wanted. For us to vote with our wallets.

Thunderous Cacophony said:
Yeah, I don't care for this exact reason. There's a rumour. You're making statements to the mature of an effective monopoly and your specific response is that there's a rumour. Yes, you say it's hard to prove, which is why people shouldn't be claiming it.

If you can reasonably demonstrate anti-competitive practices, let me know.
 

kitsunefather

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Nov 29, 2010
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DrownedAmmet said:
Do you have to bring up the whole "Free Speech" and "censorship" thing? I disagree with them removing those titles from their platform, but in no way is it harming the author's ability to freely express themselves.
To be fair to the OP, Steve Wieck (President of OBS) brings up Free Speech and Censorship in his blogpost here: http://oneblogshelf.blogspot.com/2015/09/offensive-content-policy.html


Actually, for a lot of independent RPG makers, DriveThruRPG and OneBookShelf is the only direct marketing available to them. The business model, up until now, has been to encourage gamers who put in the effort to sell directly through them, which makes the product continually available for re-download to the customers.

This change will remove content that was paid for by customers, and cutting off many developers who had come to depend on OBS as their distribution platform.

A good example is Lamentation of the Flame Princess. It is an original D&D based system, using influences (as they put it) of Death Metal and horror. Many of their products have gotten their content reported because of tongue in cheek humor or adult themes, and under the new system they are likely to have their products pulled. They can't, however, contact the purchasers of those products with links to outside sites, including their own website, as per OBS rules.

In the president's words: "Further, in the case of roleplaying games, especially new games put out by independent creators or new companies, our marketplaces are a key distribution channel. If we were to ban an RPG product, the de facto result is very much like censorship. That fact causes me grave concern, for if we were to create a content guideline that all publishers on our store must follow, and then ban titles that do not meet those guidelines, then we would be playing dictator with the RPG art form, and that is a role I am acutely uncomfortable playing."

And this is one of the larger independent RPG houses. There are many many RPG designers whose work is only on OBS sites, because that partnership was a part of the business model.

Here's the issue for me. The content people took issue with was under the "Adult" tag, which means you have to be logged in, and you have to click "I want to see Adult Content" or some such in your profile information. Then, it has to come up in one of your searches, by keyword or system.

Again, the president's words: "What we will do, though, is code more customer-facing options to allow customers to report potentially offensive content to us. That way, customers can help us identify the offensive .01% of titles that much faster. If a reported title looks questionable, then we will suspend it from sale while we review its content internally, and we will speak with its publisher to determine the fate of the title on our marketplace. Our default will be to suspend titles rather than our prior default of letting titles stay public."

This means that if you can get some outrage over a book, and get a few reports in, it gets suspended from being able to be sold, pending review. If they find the content inoffensive, that may still cost the company money; and there's nothing in place right now to stop these complaints from happening again, almost immediately.

If you're still reading this, my suggestion would be to create a more versatile and defined tagging system for content (which would have the byproduct of making things easier to search), and letting people block tags from showing up in their searches. This would give users the ability to avoid content they find offensive, while also reducing the amount of review work staff has to do once a product is for sale; if you found a product you find offensive, then it was either mis-tagged or you searched for it. This will help create more tags to crystallize the system, rather than simply penalizing content creators because someone found something offensive.
 

Secondhand Revenant

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crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
snip

Well that OWoD thing sounds pretty bad but I think it's unfair to compare an image included in a product to the entire concept of a product.
I will say that oWoD can be unapologetically offensive in a myriad of ways because that's just how WW is/was.
Never had any oWoD books so I only really had his example to go off of. It wouldn't really surprise me though. Though it would still be a different level since the entire concept of oWoD was presumably not offensive.
 

crimson5pheonix

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Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
snip

Well that OWoD thing sounds pretty bad but I think it's unfair to compare an image included in a product to the entire concept of a product.
I will say that oWoD can be unapologetically offensive in a myriad of ways because that's just how WW is/was.
Never had any oWoD books so I only really had his example to go off of. It wouldn't really surprise me though. Though it would still be a different level since the entire concept of oWoD was presumably not offensive.
Well the 20th anniversary edition of Vampire outright says you're playing a date rapist. The games in general are about doing WHAT HAS TO BE DONE without losing your humanity to the atrocities you have to commit. So I suppose, by definition, they are games for doing very offensive things.

The early oWoD books were also written by people stuck emotionally as teenagers which didn't help things.
 

Secondhand Revenant

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crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
snip

Well that OWoD thing sounds pretty bad but I think it's unfair to compare an image included in a product to the entire concept of a product.
I will say that oWoD can be unapologetically offensive in a myriad of ways because that's just how WW is/was.
Never had any oWoD books so I only really had his example to go off of. It wouldn't really surprise me though. Though it would still be a different level since the entire concept of oWoD was presumably not offensive.
Well the 20th anniversary edition of Vampire outright says you're playing a date rapist. The games in general are about doing WHAT HAS TO BE DONE without losing your humanity to the atrocities you have to commit. So I suppose, by definition, they are games for doing very offensive things.

The early oWoD books were also written by people stuck emotionally as teenagers which didn't help things.
Eh?! I'm gonna have to find a pdf of that to see for myself o__O

Well committing atrocities is one thing. Not all of them are the same. Killing people is generally a standard RP thing. Rape not so much.
 

crimson5pheonix

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Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
snip

Well that OWoD thing sounds pretty bad but I think it's unfair to compare an image included in a product to the entire concept of a product.
I will say that oWoD can be unapologetically offensive in a myriad of ways because that's just how WW is/was.
Never had any oWoD books so I only really had his example to go off of. It wouldn't really surprise me though. Though it would still be a different level since the entire concept of oWoD was presumably not offensive.
Well the 20th anniversary edition of Vampire outright says you're playing a date rapist. The games in general are about doing WHAT HAS TO BE DONE without losing your humanity to the atrocities you have to commit. So I suppose, by definition, they are games for doing very offensive things.

The early oWoD books were also written by people stuck emotionally as teenagers which didn't help things.
Eh?! I'm gonna have to find a pdf of that to see for myself o__O

Well committing atrocities is one thing. Not all of them are the same. Killing people is generally a standard RP thing. Rape not so much.
What about torturing and killing your friend's underlings for political gain? That's the standard operating procedure for the "good" guys.
 

Secondhand Revenant

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crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
snip

Well that OWoD thing sounds pretty bad but I think it's unfair to compare an image included in a product to the entire concept of a product.
I will say that oWoD can be unapologetically offensive in a myriad of ways because that's just how WW is/was.
Never had any oWoD books so I only really had his example to go off of. It wouldn't really surprise me though. Though it would still be a different level since the entire concept of oWoD was presumably not offensive.
Well the 20th anniversary edition of Vampire outright says you're playing a date rapist. The games in general are about doing WHAT HAS TO BE DONE without losing your humanity to the atrocities you have to commit. So I suppose, by definition, they are games for doing very offensive things.

The early oWoD books were also written by people stuck emotionally as teenagers which didn't help things.
Eh?! I'm gonna have to find a pdf of that to see for myself o__O

Well committing atrocities is one thing. Not all of them are the same. Killing people is generally a standard RP thing. Rape not so much.
What about torturing and killing your friend's underlings for political gain? That's the standard operating procedure for the "good" guys.
Eh. I don't usually see violence quite the same as sexual violence in games. Though I guess when you get to torture that is kind of getting into the same creepy territory.

I kind of gathered in Vampire there are no really good guys.

I think there's still the point that one can go without rape and the other is about it. I still see a distinction that can be made. Even if there is that comment you mentioned, people could run a game just fine.
 

crimson5pheonix

It took 6 months to read my title.
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Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
snip

Well that OWoD thing sounds pretty bad but I think it's unfair to compare an image included in a product to the entire concept of a product.
I will say that oWoD can be unapologetically offensive in a myriad of ways because that's just how WW is/was.
Never had any oWoD books so I only really had his example to go off of. It wouldn't really surprise me though. Though it would still be a different level since the entire concept of oWoD was presumably not offensive.
Well the 20th anniversary edition of Vampire outright says you're playing a date rapist. The games in general are about doing WHAT HAS TO BE DONE without losing your humanity to the atrocities you have to commit. So I suppose, by definition, they are games for doing very offensive things.

The early oWoD books were also written by people stuck emotionally as teenagers which didn't help things.
Eh?! I'm gonna have to find a pdf of that to see for myself o__O

Well committing atrocities is one thing. Not all of them are the same. Killing people is generally a standard RP thing. Rape not so much.
What about torturing and killing your friend's underlings for political gain? That's the standard operating procedure for the "good" guys.
Eh. I don't usually see violence quite the same as sexual violence in games. Though I guess when you get to torture that is kind of getting into the same creepy territory.

I kind of gathered in Vampire there are no really good guys.

I think there's still the point that one can go without rape and the other is about it. I still see a distinction that can be made. Even if there is that comment you mentioned, people could run a game just fine.
What if you're seducing your enemies minions through a literal date rape drug to set up a magically enforced Stockholm syndrome, once again for political gain? The line itself is referencing the act of drinking human blood forcefully, which is a pretty apt description when you think of a vampire dragging someone behind an alley and "going at it".
 

Secondhand Revenant

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crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
snip

Well that OWoD thing sounds pretty bad but I think it's unfair to compare an image included in a product to the entire concept of a product.
I will say that oWoD can be unapologetically offensive in a myriad of ways because that's just how WW is/was.
Never had any oWoD books so I only really had his example to go off of. It wouldn't really surprise me though. Though it would still be a different level since the entire concept of oWoD was presumably not offensive.
Well the 20th anniversary edition of Vampire outright says you're playing a date rapist. The games in general are about doing WHAT HAS TO BE DONE without losing your humanity to the atrocities you have to commit. So I suppose, by definition, they are games for doing very offensive things.

The early oWoD books were also written by people stuck emotionally as teenagers which didn't help things.
Eh?! I'm gonna have to find a pdf of that to see for myself o__O

Well committing atrocities is one thing. Not all of them are the same. Killing people is generally a standard RP thing. Rape not so much.
What about torturing and killing your friend's underlings for political gain? That's the standard operating procedure for the "good" guys.
Eh. I don't usually see violence quite the same as sexual violence in games. Though I guess when you get to torture that is kind of getting into the same creepy territory.

I kind of gathered in Vampire there are no really good guys.

I think there's still the point that one can go without rape and the other is about it. I still see a distinction that can be made. Even if there is that comment you mentioned, people could run a game just fine.
What if you're seducing your enemies minions through a literal date rape drug to set up a magically enforced Stockholm syndrome, once again for political gain? The line itself is referencing the act of drinking human blood forcefully, which is a pretty apt description when you think of a vampire dragging someone behind an alley and "going at it".
Okay that is pretty creepy. I'd guess it wouldn't get the same reaction because it isn't put that way but that sounds kind of messed up for a game.

Oh well that's kind of a matter of the entire concept of vampires isn't it?
 

crimson5pheonix

It took 6 months to read my title.
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Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
snip

Well that OWoD thing sounds pretty bad but I think it's unfair to compare an image included in a product to the entire concept of a product.
I will say that oWoD can be unapologetically offensive in a myriad of ways because that's just how WW is/was.
Never had any oWoD books so I only really had his example to go off of. It wouldn't really surprise me though. Though it would still be a different level since the entire concept of oWoD was presumably not offensive.
Well the 20th anniversary edition of Vampire outright says you're playing a date rapist. The games in general are about doing WHAT HAS TO BE DONE without losing your humanity to the atrocities you have to commit. So I suppose, by definition, they are games for doing very offensive things.

The early oWoD books were also written by people stuck emotionally as teenagers which didn't help things.
Eh?! I'm gonna have to find a pdf of that to see for myself o__O

Well committing atrocities is one thing. Not all of them are the same. Killing people is generally a standard RP thing. Rape not so much.
What about torturing and killing your friend's underlings for political gain? That's the standard operating procedure for the "good" guys.
Eh. I don't usually see violence quite the same as sexual violence in games. Though I guess when you get to torture that is kind of getting into the same creepy territory.

I kind of gathered in Vampire there are no really good guys.

I think there's still the point that one can go without rape and the other is about it. I still see a distinction that can be made. Even if there is that comment you mentioned, people could run a game just fine.
What if you're seducing your enemies minions through a literal date rape drug to set up a magically enforced Stockholm syndrome, once again for political gain? The line itself is referencing the act of drinking human blood forcefully, which is a pretty apt description when you think of a vampire dragging someone behind an alley and "going at it".
Okay that is pretty creepy. I'd guess it wouldn't get the same reaction because it isn't put that way but that sounds kind of messed up for a game.

Oh well that's kind of a matter of the entire concept of vampires isn't it?
Werewolf is no better, they treat their women as breeders except for the straw feminists that cut off every dangly-bit in sight.
 

Azure23

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Nov 5, 2012
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Different day, same shit.

If I'm honest this has stopped being funny and ironic. The same people who are constantly fellating the free market will complain incessantly any time it works in a way they don't approve of. This was a business decision, designed to placate customers, of course they aren't going to voluntarily go through their entire catalogue and remove anything with similar themes, they're a business and the more products they can offer the better. And sure, that's hypocrisy, but only if you hold corporations to the ethical standard of an individual, which is a fucking stupid thing to do, as you will constantly be disappointed.

Both the games sounded kinda shit anyways, no big loss there.
 

Secondhand Revenant

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crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
snip

Well that OWoD thing sounds pretty bad but I think it's unfair to compare an image included in a product to the entire concept of a product.
I will say that oWoD can be unapologetically offensive in a myriad of ways because that's just how WW is/was.
Never had any oWoD books so I only really had his example to go off of. It wouldn't really surprise me though. Though it would still be a different level since the entire concept of oWoD was presumably not offensive.
Well the 20th anniversary edition of Vampire outright says you're playing a date rapist. The games in general are about doing WHAT HAS TO BE DONE without losing your humanity to the atrocities you have to commit. So I suppose, by definition, they are games for doing very offensive things.

The early oWoD books were also written by people stuck emotionally as teenagers which didn't help things.
Eh?! I'm gonna have to find a pdf of that to see for myself o__O

Well committing atrocities is one thing. Not all of them are the same. Killing people is generally a standard RP thing. Rape not so much.
What about torturing and killing your friend's underlings for political gain? That's the standard operating procedure for the "good" guys.
Eh. I don't usually see violence quite the same as sexual violence in games. Though I guess when you get to torture that is kind of getting into the same creepy territory.

I kind of gathered in Vampire there are no really good guys.

I think there's still the point that one can go without rape and the other is about it. I still see a distinction that can be made. Even if there is that comment you mentioned, people could run a game just fine.
What if you're seducing your enemies minions through a literal date rape drug to set up a magically enforced Stockholm syndrome, once again for political gain? The line itself is referencing the act of drinking human blood forcefully, which is a pretty apt description when you think of a vampire dragging someone behind an alley and "going at it".
Okay that is pretty creepy. I'd guess it wouldn't get the same reaction because it isn't put that way but that sounds kind of messed up for a game.

Oh well that's kind of a matter of the entire concept of vampires isn't it?
Werewolf is no better, they treat their women as breeders except for the straw feminists that cut off every dangly-bit in sight.
Well that sounds rather awful. They are supposed to all do that?
 

crimson5pheonix

It took 6 months to read my title.
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Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
snip

Well that OWoD thing sounds pretty bad but I think it's unfair to compare an image included in a product to the entire concept of a product.
I will say that oWoD can be unapologetically offensive in a myriad of ways because that's just how WW is/was.
Never had any oWoD books so I only really had his example to go off of. It wouldn't really surprise me though. Though it would still be a different level since the entire concept of oWoD was presumably not offensive.
Well the 20th anniversary edition of Vampire outright says you're playing a date rapist. The games in general are about doing WHAT HAS TO BE DONE without losing your humanity to the atrocities you have to commit. So I suppose, by definition, they are games for doing very offensive things.

The early oWoD books were also written by people stuck emotionally as teenagers which didn't help things.
Eh?! I'm gonna have to find a pdf of that to see for myself o__O

Well committing atrocities is one thing. Not all of them are the same. Killing people is generally a standard RP thing. Rape not so much.
What about torturing and killing your friend's underlings for political gain? That's the standard operating procedure for the "good" guys.
Eh. I don't usually see violence quite the same as sexual violence in games. Though I guess when you get to torture that is kind of getting into the same creepy territory.

I kind of gathered in Vampire there are no really good guys.

I think there's still the point that one can go without rape and the other is about it. I still see a distinction that can be made. Even if there is that comment you mentioned, people could run a game just fine.
What if you're seducing your enemies minions through a literal date rape drug to set up a magically enforced Stockholm syndrome, once again for political gain? The line itself is referencing the act of drinking human blood forcefully, which is a pretty apt description when you think of a vampire dragging someone behind an alley and "going at it".
Okay that is pretty creepy. I'd guess it wouldn't get the same reaction because it isn't put that way but that sounds kind of messed up for a game.

Oh well that's kind of a matter of the entire concept of vampires isn't it?
Werewolf is no better, they treat their women as breeders except for the straw feminists that cut off every dangly-bit in sight.
Well that sounds rather awful. They are supposed to all do that?
Yes, with a couple of noted exceptions. And they are also supposed to be heroes. Violently psychotic heroes, but heroes nonetheless.
 

Secondhand Revenant

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crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
snip

Well that OWoD thing sounds pretty bad but I think it's unfair to compare an image included in a product to the entire concept of a product.
I will say that oWoD can be unapologetically offensive in a myriad of ways because that's just how WW is/was.
Never had any oWoD books so I only really had his example to go off of. It wouldn't really surprise me though. Though it would still be a different level since the entire concept of oWoD was presumably not offensive.
Well the 20th anniversary edition of Vampire outright says you're playing a date rapist. The games in general are about doing WHAT HAS TO BE DONE without losing your humanity to the atrocities you have to commit. So I suppose, by definition, they are games for doing very offensive things.

The early oWoD books were also written by people stuck emotionally as teenagers which didn't help things.
Eh?! I'm gonna have to find a pdf of that to see for myself o__O

Well committing atrocities is one thing. Not all of them are the same. Killing people is generally a standard RP thing. Rape not so much.
What about torturing and killing your friend's underlings for political gain? That's the standard operating procedure for the "good" guys.
Eh. I don't usually see violence quite the same as sexual violence in games. Though I guess when you get to torture that is kind of getting into the same creepy territory.

I kind of gathered in Vampire there are no really good guys.

I think there's still the point that one can go without rape and the other is about it. I still see a distinction that can be made. Even if there is that comment you mentioned, people could run a game just fine.
What if you're seducing your enemies minions through a literal date rape drug to set up a magically enforced Stockholm syndrome, once again for political gain? The line itself is referencing the act of drinking human blood forcefully, which is a pretty apt description when you think of a vampire dragging someone behind an alley and "going at it".
Okay that is pretty creepy. I'd guess it wouldn't get the same reaction because it isn't put that way but that sounds kind of messed up for a game.

Oh well that's kind of a matter of the entire concept of vampires isn't it?
Werewolf is no better, they treat their women as breeders except for the straw feminists that cut off every dangly-bit in sight.
Well that sounds rather awful. They are supposed to all do that?
Yes, with a couple of noted exceptions. And they are also supposed to be heroes. Violently psychotic heroes, but heroes nonetheless.
Well its sexist for sure. I still think it's different because the bad part doesn't define the entire game.
 

crimson5pheonix

It took 6 months to read my title.
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Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
snip

Well that OWoD thing sounds pretty bad but I think it's unfair to compare an image included in a product to the entire concept of a product.
I will say that oWoD can be unapologetically offensive in a myriad of ways because that's just how WW is/was.
Never had any oWoD books so I only really had his example to go off of. It wouldn't really surprise me though. Though it would still be a different level since the entire concept of oWoD was presumably not offensive.
Well the 20th anniversary edition of Vampire outright says you're playing a date rapist. The games in general are about doing WHAT HAS TO BE DONE without losing your humanity to the atrocities you have to commit. So I suppose, by definition, they are games for doing very offensive things.

The early oWoD books were also written by people stuck emotionally as teenagers which didn't help things.
Eh?! I'm gonna have to find a pdf of that to see for myself o__O

Well committing atrocities is one thing. Not all of them are the same. Killing people is generally a standard RP thing. Rape not so much.
What about torturing and killing your friend's underlings for political gain? That's the standard operating procedure for the "good" guys.
Eh. I don't usually see violence quite the same as sexual violence in games. Though I guess when you get to torture that is kind of getting into the same creepy territory.

I kind of gathered in Vampire there are no really good guys.

I think there's still the point that one can go without rape and the other is about it. I still see a distinction that can be made. Even if there is that comment you mentioned, people could run a game just fine.
What if you're seducing your enemies minions through a literal date rape drug to set up a magically enforced Stockholm syndrome, once again for political gain? The line itself is referencing the act of drinking human blood forcefully, which is a pretty apt description when you think of a vampire dragging someone behind an alley and "going at it".
Okay that is pretty creepy. I'd guess it wouldn't get the same reaction because it isn't put that way but that sounds kind of messed up for a game.

Oh well that's kind of a matter of the entire concept of vampires isn't it?
Werewolf is no better, they treat their women as breeders except for the straw feminists that cut off every dangly-bit in sight.
Well that sounds rather awful. They are supposed to all do that?
Yes, with a couple of noted exceptions. And they are also supposed to be heroes. Violently psychotic heroes, but heroes nonetheless.
Well its sexist for sure. I still think it's different because the bad part doesn't define the entire game.
It's actually at the heart of why the setting is fucked (that and the aforementioned violent psychoses). Werewuffs have become so obsessed with breeding and bloodlines that they're dangerously understaffed for their End Of The World Event, so they have to throw their previous rules away to breed up a big enough army.
 

Secondhand Revenant

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crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
snip

Well that OWoD thing sounds pretty bad but I think it's unfair to compare an image included in a product to the entire concept of a product.
I will say that oWoD can be unapologetically offensive in a myriad of ways because that's just how WW is/was.
Never had any oWoD books so I only really had his example to go off of. It wouldn't really surprise me though. Though it would still be a different level since the entire concept of oWoD was presumably not offensive.
Well the 20th anniversary edition of Vampire outright says you're playing a date rapist. The games in general are about doing WHAT HAS TO BE DONE without losing your humanity to the atrocities you have to commit. So I suppose, by definition, they are games for doing very offensive things.

The early oWoD books were also written by people stuck emotionally as teenagers which didn't help things.
Eh?! I'm gonna have to find a pdf of that to see for myself o__O

Well committing atrocities is one thing. Not all of them are the same. Killing people is generally a standard RP thing. Rape not so much.
What about torturing and killing your friend's underlings for political gain? That's the standard operating procedure for the "good" guys.
Eh. I don't usually see violence quite the same as sexual violence in games. Though I guess when you get to torture that is kind of getting into the same creepy territory.

I kind of gathered in Vampire there are no really good guys.

I think there's still the point that one can go without rape and the other is about it. I still see a distinction that can be made. Even if there is that comment you mentioned, people could run a game just fine.
What if you're seducing your enemies minions through a literal date rape drug to set up a magically enforced Stockholm syndrome, once again for political gain? The line itself is referencing the act of drinking human blood forcefully, which is a pretty apt description when you think of a vampire dragging someone behind an alley and "going at it".
Okay that is pretty creepy. I'd guess it wouldn't get the same reaction because it isn't put that way but that sounds kind of messed up for a game.

Oh well that's kind of a matter of the entire concept of vampires isn't it?
Werewolf is no better, they treat their women as breeders except for the straw feminists that cut off every dangly-bit in sight.
Well that sounds rather awful. They are supposed to all do that?
Yes, with a couple of noted exceptions. And they are also supposed to be heroes. Violently psychotic heroes, but heroes nonetheless.
Well its sexist for sure. I still think it's different because the bad part doesn't define the entire game.
It's actually at the heart of why the setting is fucked (that and the aforementioned violent psychoses). Werewuffs have become so obsessed with breeding and bloodlines that they're dangerously understaffed for their End Of The World Event, so they have to throw their previous rules away to breed up a big enough army.
Yeah but presumably you aren't going out hunting people to have sex with. It may make a difference to the setting but it isn't what the game is all about.

Also I looked it up and they can't breed together can they?
 

crimson5pheonix

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Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
snip

Well that OWoD thing sounds pretty bad but I think it's unfair to compare an image included in a product to the entire concept of a product.
I will say that oWoD can be unapologetically offensive in a myriad of ways because that's just how WW is/was.
Never had any oWoD books so I only really had his example to go off of. It wouldn't really surprise me though. Though it would still be a different level since the entire concept of oWoD was presumably not offensive.
Well the 20th anniversary edition of Vampire outright says you're playing a date rapist. The games in general are about doing WHAT HAS TO BE DONE without losing your humanity to the atrocities you have to commit. So I suppose, by definition, they are games for doing very offensive things.

The early oWoD books were also written by people stuck emotionally as teenagers which didn't help things.
Eh?! I'm gonna have to find a pdf of that to see for myself o__O

Well committing atrocities is one thing. Not all of them are the same. Killing people is generally a standard RP thing. Rape not so much.
What about torturing and killing your friend's underlings for political gain? That's the standard operating procedure for the "good" guys.
Eh. I don't usually see violence quite the same as sexual violence in games. Though I guess when you get to torture that is kind of getting into the same creepy territory.

I kind of gathered in Vampire there are no really good guys.

I think there's still the point that one can go without rape and the other is about it. I still see a distinction that can be made. Even if there is that comment you mentioned, people could run a game just fine.
What if you're seducing your enemies minions through a literal date rape drug to set up a magically enforced Stockholm syndrome, once again for political gain? The line itself is referencing the act of drinking human blood forcefully, which is a pretty apt description when you think of a vampire dragging someone behind an alley and "going at it".
Okay that is pretty creepy. I'd guess it wouldn't get the same reaction because it isn't put that way but that sounds kind of messed up for a game.

Oh well that's kind of a matter of the entire concept of vampires isn't it?
Werewolf is no better, they treat their women as breeders except for the straw feminists that cut off every dangly-bit in sight.
Well that sounds rather awful. They are supposed to all do that?
Yes, with a couple of noted exceptions. And they are also supposed to be heroes. Violently psychotic heroes, but heroes nonetheless.
Well its sexist for sure. I still think it's different because the bad part doesn't define the entire game.
It's actually at the heart of why the setting is fucked (that and the aforementioned violent psychoses). Werewuffs have become so obsessed with breeding and bloodlines that they're dangerously understaffed for their End Of The World Event, so they have to throw their previous rules away to breed up a big enough army.
Yeah but presumably you aren't going out hunting people to have sex with. It may make a difference to the setting but it isn't what the game is all about.
Furry, the Yiffing? Being about sex? Perish the thought. Though if I remember correctly one of their endgame scenarios involves sexing a straight up wolf.

Also I looked it up and they can't breed together can they?
Yes and no. They can, but it's a crime and results in a powerful but sterile child. That usually kills the mother on the way out.

So of course since they realized the end is nigh, most groups have gone to encouraging/forcing it for the powerful fighters.
 

Secondhand Revenant

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crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
snip

Well that OWoD thing sounds pretty bad but I think it's unfair to compare an image included in a product to the entire concept of a product.
I will say that oWoD can be unapologetically offensive in a myriad of ways because that's just how WW is/was.
Never had any oWoD books so I only really had his example to go off of. It wouldn't really surprise me though. Though it would still be a different level since the entire concept of oWoD was presumably not offensive.
Well the 20th anniversary edition of Vampire outright says you're playing a date rapist. The games in general are about doing WHAT HAS TO BE DONE without losing your humanity to the atrocities you have to commit. So I suppose, by definition, they are games for doing very offensive things.

The early oWoD books were also written by people stuck emotionally as teenagers which didn't help things.
Eh?! I'm gonna have to find a pdf of that to see for myself o__O

Well committing atrocities is one thing. Not all of them are the same. Killing people is generally a standard RP thing. Rape not so much.
What about torturing and killing your friend's underlings for political gain? That's the standard operating procedure for the "good" guys.
Eh. I don't usually see violence quite the same as sexual violence in games. Though I guess when you get to torture that is kind of getting into the same creepy territory.

I kind of gathered in Vampire there are no really good guys.

I think there's still the point that one can go without rape and the other is about it. I still see a distinction that can be made. Even if there is that comment you mentioned, people could run a game just fine.
What if you're seducing your enemies minions through a literal date rape drug to set up a magically enforced Stockholm syndrome, once again for political gain? The line itself is referencing the act of drinking human blood forcefully, which is a pretty apt description when you think of a vampire dragging someone behind an alley and "going at it".
Okay that is pretty creepy. I'd guess it wouldn't get the same reaction because it isn't put that way but that sounds kind of messed up for a game.

Oh well that's kind of a matter of the entire concept of vampires isn't it?
Werewolf is no better, they treat their women as breeders except for the straw feminists that cut off every dangly-bit in sight.
Well that sounds rather awful. They are supposed to all do that?
Yes, with a couple of noted exceptions. And they are also supposed to be heroes. Violently psychotic heroes, but heroes nonetheless.
Well its sexist for sure. I still think it's different because the bad part doesn't define the entire game.
It's actually at the heart of why the setting is fucked (that and the aforementioned violent psychoses). Werewuffs have become so obsessed with breeding and bloodlines that they're dangerously understaffed for their End Of The World Event, so they have to throw their previous rules away to breed up a big enough army.
Yeah but presumably you aren't going out hunting people to have sex with. It may make a difference to the setting but it isn't what the game is all about.
Furry, the Yiffing? Being about sex? Perish the though. Though if I remember correctly one of their endgame scenarios involves sexing a straight up wolf.

Also I looked it up and they can't breed together can they?
Yes and no. They can, but it's a crime and results in a powerful but sterile child. That usually kills the mother on the way out.

So of course since they realized the end is nigh, most groups have gone to encouraging/forcing it for the powerful fighters.
Well I mean I look up the game and see plenty of non-sex things and didn't find all the details about breeding right away so it doesn't seem as central to regulag gameplay. You kind of see rape as the first word in the removed book and all. I mean I'm not denying stuff in other games existing. I'm just seeing it as possible to distinguish between a book about rape villains or something and books that contain dubious elements but aren't based entirely on them.

Though I did see they can apparently breed with wolves. Weird and creepy. Not sexist if that's any comfort...
 

Redryhno

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MarsAtlas said:
Thunderous Cacophony said:
The problem is that there are no rules given for what choices they are making about stocking and why.
snip.
The entire point of my post was to talk about the guy not giving guidelines for things to be accepted once they've been worked out and submitted. There's nothing to tell creators what isn't allowed on the storefront of this private business and if they're wasting capital trying to get it there. If it's because of the word "RAPE" in the title, if they aren't allowing "ADULT ONLY" labels anymore, if it's the content or the context(which honestly you'd think would be great considering the little snippets I've heard of the game possibly being able to be used as some kind of catharsis for rape victims or friends of victims). Or even if it's simply because rape is present in the work.

But no, instead he gave a bullshit answer that's akin to that moron Stewart fifty years ago.

It's a private business yes, but if you don't give creators an idea of if they need to go to you or your competitor, they're gonna go to the guy that will probably accept their stuff without a hassle because they don't have to stress over it as much.

And don't give me that "it doesn't need goodwill" crap. It's a cop-out answer that isn't even that well thought out. People forgave CDPR and Witcher3 not having some things that Witcher2 had that made it easier on the player to work with their inventories and other simple things. People however, still haven't forgiven other companies for their blunders. The difference being that the wonkiness was addressed and acknowledged instead of saying nothing or blaming the audience like so many have the last few years.

People are forgiving Frictional for what they let Chinese Room do to Amnesia, because they showed they were working on SOMA almost immediately after handing it off, and have kept the fans updated. And I've enjoyed most of what I've seen of the damn thing, it's honestly gonna be one of the few games I've actually bought on release this year I think(only two weeks left).

Businesses need goodwill. Origin was shit for about six months, and the people that use it now often say it's better than Steam in terms of customer service and the speed there is to get things done, but nobody uses the damn thing because there was no goodwill to allow it to not immediately drown under its own weight. Hi-Rez lost a gigantic amount of fans because of how they handled Tribes and Global Agenda when Smite hit the ground running, and now that they've come back to help Tribes a bit, nobody cares because they already burned them before. Desura, Gamejolt, two other indie storefronts that fucked up royally and lost their customer and the majority of their creative bases to Steam.

Goodwill is something like 40% of a business. I don't get people coming back to eat when I or someone else on staff fucks up cooking their food, or when the waiters stick a thumb in their soup, or when they're left standing around for twenty minutes because a host is busy chatting up others at the wrong times. Businesses NEED goodwill, otherwise your mistakes pile up and the good things you do are overlooked because you've got a mountain of shit, and a pocketful of gold, and one is alot more noticeable than the other.