Open world, flawed by design or a work in progress?

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Jon Jon

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Sep 28, 2014
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As much fun as the likes of Fallout New Vegas, Saints row 2 through 4 and Red Dead Redemption have given me over the years, there was always the niggling doubt that something in these games felt a bit inconsequential or absent and then it hit me, every that happened in these games was at my behest and as a result paced horribly. The resulting feeling was that the games structures all felt a bit disjointed or in Red Deads? case, nonsensical, why couldn't I leave the country after they gave my wife and kids back? Well because they have their ending to show. Likewise the opposite doesn't work either because when I?m given the choice to save all of New Vegas and rule over it as the benevolent god man I am, free of all misery because I made the right decisions, then the story might as well be thrown out the window at that point because what?s the point.

What about Prototype and the very saints row 3 and 4 you mentioned? I hear you say. They like a Mario game don?t care much for the story, their open worlds act as just a toy box for you to roll around in and get lost in the many joyous challenges. Well then there a new problem arises, in that the open world then instead of watering down the story, unnecessarily pads out the gameplay. What can you tell me did an open world add to Saints 3 and 4 other then an overly massive hub world to hold the missions that require me to drag my arse back and forth from; surely a sizeable arena would replace the testing environment? The better step, I offer, would have been to make a selection of well-made smaller worlds that serve to complement each mini game and Mission, instead of sending me down the same cave or street I passed on the way here.

So on the one side of the open world story telling it?s too disjointed and on the other side it?s too watered down to be vague enough for 50 alternatives. Whilst sandboxes serve little purpose then to waste a lot of time scoring points in the same old giant world. Now there is something to be said for the seamlessness of it all, but what does it add? No loading times? That?s alright I suppose, but surely you?d prefer a well-made variety of gauntlets and arenas to got to town with your crazy powers then different points of the same city each time. Or maybe just a better laid out city, smaller but well refined.

I think these doubts about open world as a thing, really began to set in with Skyrim and they?ve been budding ever since. There you have a game that?s open world undermines everything it does and sacrifices all depth and soul to make a giant forest of hills. Its quest to make everything seamless resulted in some really damaging decisions, ever notice RPG fans how Skyrim conversations don?t last longer than a minute? Well that?s because they?re in real game time, so the developers knew they couldn?t keep the old, long branches of dialogue trees that allowed for proper character and story to be developed, because a dragon could squash you whilst your conversation locked. That was by in large one of Skyrims? bigger mistakes, its Xbox exclusivity deals were another but I?ll save that for if I ever have a go at Bethesda?s business practices.

These are all I?ll admit case by case problems, but they all stem from a focus on this one united ultimate world, and like realistic graphics, I have to ask is it worth sacrificing gameplay for it? When we can make better more defined worlds, look at the Deus exs? and any of the Bioware games, infinitely richer in character and story then their open world counter parts. Look at Dishonoured and Hitman: Blood Money, their gameplay and level design undoubtedly more interesting and deeper then Saints or Prototype.

However despite my moaning and groaning over the gimmick, I?m too optimistic to say it will never add to gameplay, because way back when RPG elements seemed degrading to gameplay, remember the old NES RPG elements, like the stuff we saw in Castlevania 2. They were weak back then because of a lack of storage and horsepower to properly flesh out the elements, so soon along came the SNES and with that boosted power Symphony of the night came to use RPG elements much better. With games like Symphony and World of Warcraft to sight a more recent example, they needed more powerful systems to feed all the effects, sounds and graphics that make the grind of an RPG satisfying.

Likewise for open world to play the core experience of these games without sacrificing depth two things will need to be overcome. First is the focus on size over depth, as long as the focus is on making your open world larger in landmass rather than making the already impressive mass more interesting, then open world gameplay will never improve. Second is good writing, for an open world game to even be subpar you need an interesting story and angle to enter at that flows well with the mechanics. I brought up Red Dead Redemption early and despite all its story telling faults I will give it credit, that, the setting and character they went with really work. John Marston is broad enough a character that the player killing everything in sight or saving all isn't too implausible but he still retains enough basic character that there is still a character for us to read into. The plot is where the open world hamstrings the game as it is a plot written with a fair bit of urgency, that is get your family back. It would have been better if it had been a more relaxed plot like Fallout New Vegas, where you?re getting your revenge but you can take your time, as far as the plot suggests the guy isn?t going anywhere.

So take from my rambling what you will, I think that open world as a gameplay element at the moment is still largely a gimmick, but it has the potential to be something really special down the line.
 

default

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I just don't think it works very well with a traditional narrative structure, i.e beginning, middle and end, for a lot of the reasons you mentioned. There's often a massive disconnect between the story and the world. It also doesn't mesh very well with a lot of current game design trends, such as lots of polish and content over core substance, as wanky as that sounds for me to say.
 

MysticSlayer

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Jon Jon said:
What can you tell me did an open world add to Saints 3 and 4 other then an overly massive hub world to hold the missions that require me to drag my arse back and forth from; surely a sizeable arena would replace the testing environment? The better step, I offer, would have been to make a selection of well-made smaller worlds that serve to complement each mini game and Mission, instead of sending me down the same cave or street I passed on the way here.
Out of curiosity: How do you view open world games? You mention them as both a toy box and a hub, yet what you say here seems to clearly indicate that you view open worlds as just a very large hub meant to go from mission to mission similar to how Super Mario 64 approached its world.

That's fine and all, but it does mean that you sort of miss what draws people like me to an open world. The last thing I want in an open world is just feel like I'm being dragged from mission to mission. If I go to a mission, it is because I want to see what challenges and scenarios the developers could think up of. However, for the most part, I want to create my own challenges and ridiculous scenarios. I don't remember Saints Row: The Third for all of the missions. I remember it for shooting a few people to get the cops to show up, raise my wanted rating to get things like choppers to show up, and then lead them on a chase all across the map as I try to get to a safe house on the completely opposite side of the map. Oh, and maybe I would also stop by the zombie area just to have a massive shootout with the cops while seeing how the zombies make things more interesting. That kind of experience just wouldn't have been possible if the game was just a bunch of broken-up, smaller areas meant to facilitate a mission.

And it is fine if you prefer the method that games like Dishonored use, but you can't apply the same design philosophy of those games to a game like Grand Theft Auto or Saints Row and then ask, "What's the point?" At that point, you're completely missing the reason people like me want large, open-world games. We don't want to just have an open approach to a bunch of pre-determined missions. We want to be able to create our own goofy, epic missions with as little restraint as possible.

There you have a game that?s open world undermines everything it does...ever notice RPG fans how Skyrim conversations don?t last longer than a minute?
Actually, I don't remember them being any shorter than in other modern RPGs like, say, The Witcher 2. Yeah, there were a few conversations in Witcher 2 that lasted far longer than any I had in Skyrim, but they were few and far between and generally stuck in the most story-heavy sections of the game.

Which leads me again to say that you can't just assume every game is being approached with the same design philosophy. If you assume that Skyrim was little more than a story with characters meant to flesh out a world to the same degree as other story-heavy RPGs, then yes, you will see a problem. On the other hand, if you view Skyrim as being more about the adventure and role-playing, then the open world works wonders. It offers far less restriction than most other modern RPGs do on the exploration, and it also gives players greater choice over how they can build their character through the way they interact with the world rather than through dialogue and story choices.

And again, it is fine if you want the more story-heavy experience. I myself absolutely adore The Witcher, Mass Effect, and Tales series partially because they are such great storytelling experiences. But at the same time, I may want next to no restriction over how I approach the world, and in that regard, The Elder Scrolls is absolutely the master, and I'd say that Bethesda understand that that's what sets it apart. That's probably why they spent so much time on making the exploration and gameplay of Skyrim so enjoyable, at least in comparison to how much time seemed to have gone into developer a deep story.

so the developers knew they couldn?t keep the old, long branches of dialogue trees that allowed for proper character and story to be developed, because a dragon could squash you whilst your conversation locked.
Eh, I'm not sure if you just ran into an odd situation, but characters will break out of conversation if there's danger nearby. Funnily enough, despite breaking out of it, they will still continue with the dialogue they were in the middle of. They may even say a few lines over it that follows their combat dialogue. It creates a few hilarious moments where someone is trying to have a serious spiritual conversation about peace while they are hacking away at a bandit.
 

Phoenixmgs_v1legacy

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Sep 1, 2010
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Jon Jon said:
First is the focus on size over depth, as long as the focus is on making your open world larger in landmass rather than making the already impressive mass more interesting, then open world gameplay will never improve.
-Or maybe just a better laid out city, smaller but well refined.
-Look at Dishonoured and Hitman: Blood Money, their gameplay and level design undoubtedly more interesting and deeper then Saints or Prototype.

So take from my rambling what you will, I think that open world as a gameplay element at the moment is still largely a gimmick, but it has the potential to be something really special down the line.
I much prefer the smaller open worlds vs making it as big as you can. One thing that I loved about Watch Dogs was the city, you can go anywhere in the city and there's great detail. The developers never even said anything about how big Chicago was but how dense it is. The bigger you make the world the less detail each building, street, block, etc. has. The quality of level design drops as the world gets bigger. I think finding that happy medium is the key for an open world game. Batman Arkham City isn't very big at all so it's able to retain good level design for the most part, plus there's several areas like the museum that are basically linear levels. Dishonored and Hitman fall into the "small" open worlds as well. I think the key thing that makes Dishonored and Hitman feel more "real" or "alive" is the variety of stuff you can do in them to complete objectives. In Dishonored, there's always a way to not kill the target, you can use your powers in interesting ways. In Hitman, you can take out the flower guy and use his clothes to kill the target. Whereas in say GTA or RDR, you go to Point B and you shoot the 20 or so enemies that spawn with really no other option, even the shooting is not very interesting as it's basically whack-a-mole, you can't even use stealth like FarCry3 or Watch Dogs. Basically, a good open world game is one that actually lets you think outside the box.

I'd like to mention how awesome the 1st Mercenaries was. It was the game that ruined GTA and pretty much every other open world game for me. Mercenaries allowed for so many different ways to complete objectives that it was more of a puzzle game than anything. You had to keep all the factions happy for the most part; you'd do a job for the US against the Chinese, then you'd have to do a job for the Chinese against the US. Basically, the goal was to do a job without the faction knowing it was you and there was always some way to get that done. There was a disguise system in place by driving vehicles said faction drove. You could sneak in and take out all the guards one by one or sneak in to set up an airstrike. Also, the game was structured and built completely different from the GTAs of the world. Instead of just a whole city being designed and then making missions within that design and just hoping the mission were good, Mercenaries went the route of designing each mission as basically a linear level (care was taken to enemy placement and such), then placing all those linear levels on a canvas to create the open world. Basically Mercenaries was created in the exact opposite way of GTA. Mercenaries 2 sucked though.

With the writing and story issues, I got nothing really. Video games have such poor writing across the board that I don't buy games for writing and stories because I'd just end up disappointed. Writing is an industry problem due to how games are developed (levels, mechanics, and such are created first and then the writer has to tie it all together) and there's very few good writers actually working in the industry.

I agree that open world is mainly a gimmick and novelty at the moment because how most devs go about making an open world game is all wrong. An open world game needs to be developed with a core foundation on smaller, better designed worlds that give the player agency with regards to completing objectives.
 

masticina

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Jan 19, 2011
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Mmm the problem I have with open world games is that indeed you so easily walk away from the main story line. Oh look here 20 small missions do to. What you need your space kittens saved from the space tree? Of course miss. And before you know you have done hours NOTHING to go further with the main mission.

On the other hand that is certainly enjoyable. If done well and the NPC's and the world around you changes a bit with your good deeds it feels nice to have done such.

I do like hidden stats like faction stats and area stats. Do good in an area and soon enough others will hear of it coming to you with bigger problems. Stuff like that...

And factions are always fun, definitely if they are symmetrically opposed. Or even asymmeticrally opposed. The ability to actually MAKE enemies. Mmm, heard wasteland 2 is good in that.

So open world can be done right but requires extra layers and hooks. With factions and hidden stats things can work out. Be the hero in a small village and hopefully they react that way to. If the game developers/programmers haven't worked on a method to reward you like that then it sucks.

I am DM'ing a roleplay and I try to create such things. It is hard work but it makes sense.
 

Riotguards

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Feb 1, 2013
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GTA and Saints row have all benefited from good open world design and generally open world only works if you're allowed to goof off

its more satifying to find an awesome hiding hole to have a standoff against the police (or whatever enemy)
 

Smooth Operator

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Oct 5, 2010
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It is flawed in being very difficult to pull off, purely mathematically increasing the size of your world by 10 would require 10x more content of the same quality, for which no company has time or resources for.
So they end up going the other way by stretching that content ten fold and filling in with cheap nonsense, both of which leave a bad taste on the story side.

We might just get devs to consider the old hub system ala Baldur's Gate where you travel between high content areas, but now you put those in a continuous world where the in-between parts are less content intensive.
So instead of a watered down story everywhere you can have something really excellent in there while still having freedom to screw around.
 
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I think Mystic Slayer & Smooth Operator hit the main points for me.

It's a difficult design to get right because it requires a lot of work to fill in a world that's that much bigger and make it feel anywhere near as well realised as the comparatively small sections of world you get in other games. You could put a fully open world with as much detail etc as more restricted ones but it would be a long expensive project, I don't think it's the sort of thing the industry would be willing to risk.


That said, I don't really play anything else but open world, strategy and 40K based games (sigh...), open world games give me something that no other game does, I'm not really that interested in story, or at least I'll take a light story element and the freedom to explore over a restricted story heavy environment any day of the week. I'm not interested in some bullshit some other fucker has made up, I want to make up my own bullshit.

Jon Jon said:
Thats?s alright I suppose, but surely you?d prefer a well-made variety of gauntlets and arenas to got to town with your crazy powers.
No, that is the exact opposite of what I want (well, apart from the well made bit). I want a big old world to explore, I want to approach the gauntlet in the manner of my choosing or even avoid it entirely as just a tiny part of all the other things I could be doing. TBH Mystric Slayer explained all this a lot better than me.

[EDIT
So in essence, I think it's less a flaw by design or work in progress as it is something that no one has had the time or money to create to have certain aspects of it reach the same quality as some other games that focus more on those aspects. I hope that sentence made sense]
 

Squilookle

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Phoenixmgs said:
I'd like to mention how awesome the 1st Mercenaries was. It was the game that ruined GTA and pretty much every other open world game for me. Mercenaries allowed for so many different ways to complete objectives that it was more of a puzzle game than anything. You had to keep all the factions happy for the most part; you'd do a job for the US against the Chinese, then you'd have to do a job for the Chinese against the US. Basically, the goal was to do a job without the faction knowing it was you and there was always some way to get that done. There was a disguise system in place by driving vehicles said faction drove. You could sneak in and take out all the guards one by one or sneak in to set up an airstrike. Also, the game was structured and built completely different from the GTAs of the world. Instead of just a whole city being designed and then making missions within that design and just hoping the mission were good, Mercenaries went the route of designing each mission as basically a linear level (care was taken to enemy placement and such), then placing all those linear levels on a canvas to create the open world. Basically Mercenaries was created in the exact opposite way of GTA. Mercenaries 2 sucked though.
While I could not agree with the above more, I would also like to highlight Mafia as an example of a good way to approach sandbox design for the same reason: missions are designed as individual levels, that happen to inhabit a fully open world that you are free to explore during your time off.

What I REALLY came here to talk about though, is Mount and Blade Warband. That sandbox game could not care less about the player. The entire world functions in a dynamic and perfectly interesting way and would continue to do so just fine if you weren't even there. One may argue that this lowers the importance of the player but I see that as the whole point: You feel much more a part of a living world if you see your character grow from nothing within it. It's the same satisfaction over being the 'chosen one' in an RPG that shooter fans experience when they take control of some nobody character in multiplayer and rack up a killstreak involving some impossible odds like bringing down a tank. When you're the chosen one and the world revolves around you, such actions are meaningless because you're SUPPOSED to be doing that to save the world or whatever. But in Mount and Blade, to start as a peasant and grow steadily into a fierce warrior that once led a small band of warriors to defeat that-one-massive-army on that-one-particular-battleground, you really FEEL like you're creating a hero, not simply treading the path the developer laid out for you like in GTA games, for example.
 

Demonchaser27

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I think this is important and incredibly interesting discussion. I tend to think like you on this subject. But not for story reasons. See I wouldn't look at games like Symphony of the Night and Super Metroid as "open-world". I look at them as "seamless world" (also known as folded-level design). The difference for me is that these "seamless world" games tend to be built in a way where, while you can go practically anywhere, the player must discover or discern ways of unlocking paths and getting around environmental obstacles. And the most important part to me is the way the world is structured. In the case of 2D versions and 3D variants (such as Dark Souls) what happens is that the world is more path oriented. It means you can't just come from any 360 degrees direction and still get to the same place. Usually there are multiple paths that can link to other areas, but there are also various obstacles that differ between paths, as I said before, that come in to play that make the game more than just walking from point A to B. This helps make the world more interesting. A quick example is in Dark Souls, to get to Quelaag the player must do one of the following:

1. Route through Undead Burg and defeat a boss and then go to Undead Parish to a key and then go back for a small time to Undead Burg at the bridge to the Lower Burg and fight another boss. Then go through the Depths to a boss which then allows you to go through Blighttown and finally you will reach Quelaag.

2. Take the the first sentence of possibility #1, minus the part after getting the key in Undead Parish. Instead from Undead Parish go to Darkroot Garden and take an optional, albeit hidden pathway, into the bottom of Darkroot Garden. Then go just above where the Black Knight is and go to the bonfire. Then from there, travel down an elevator and head through the Valley of the Drakes until you reach almost the end of it and go through the left cavern and viola. You've reached a different entrance.

3. And probably the quickest and easiest path, if you have a master key or not, is to just go straight from the beginning at Firelink Shrine, down to the bottom and use the elevator to New Londo Ruins. From there either go through the zone of ghosts and clear your way through most of the zone until you open the Big Door of New Londo Ruins which will allow you into Valley of the Drakes (which I've already said leads to Blightown directly) or you can take the easy way and just go straight to your right up another set of stairs (after traversing down the first stairs) which leads to an elevator up. From there you run into a gate that can opened with the Master Key. You are now, again, in Valley of the Drakes.

The bulk of Dark Souls 1 (about 50%-60%) is like this. Now doesn't that sound more interesting than "just go straight from point you're at to any point on the map you wanna go"? Super Metroid and SOTN also have very similar "seamless" map structures. I could go into to detail but the Dark Souls one gets the point across. Basically you still have options, but they are more limited and require knowledge of your sorroundings and where to go from where you are, thus requiring more brain activity, all while avoiding traps and fighting various enemies that are laid out, with the map design all in mind to create a cohesive whole experience. Travel becomes part of the path of progression rather than getting in the way of progression.

For me, the biggest inherent problem with open-world games (speaking of maps with giant fields and really "open" areas like skyrim and red dead for example) that I don't think will ever be solved is the inherent bore of walking from point A to B. Open Worlds don't have this quality of making the path "to something" feel like a journey to get there, thus it becomes boring. And if you place obstacles in the players path, they can either walk around them or you end up having to create this REALLY unrealistic set piece in the environment to funnel the player down which will eventually, if done enough, turn it into a seamless game as I mentioned before. The fact that "warping" has become so popular in open-world games is tantamount to the real underlying issues of open-world design. Eventually, it just becomes too boring to travel that large expanse, so they just let you warp. The problem is though that it's a workaround not a solution. Your map is boring, so what to you do? Ignore it and let the player ignore it by skipping it. Instead of building better maps and more interesting obstacles/hidden pathways/etc. they just go around everything by warping to the important stuff which despite all the work done on the map makes it feel... well meaningless. Why even build the world? No one is expecting to use it. Open-world games, to me and despite being built as such, often feel less realistic than a real world or are so realistic to a real world that it's just boring.

I might be wrong and someone might find a way to increase the speed, even further, of how fast we can build worlds. Then they might have the time to make enough obstacles and hidden pathways to make open worlds more interesting. At times, IMO, Dragon's Dogma felt interesting to explore. The way they got around just running around obstacles was your party members. They would fight despite you running and if you kept ignoring them then eventually it would wittle your party members to nothing and then you would be all by yourself. But that didn't make the world design any better necessarily. It just added some incentive to fighting the enemies rather than running, since you couldn't control your party members effectively enough to have them avoid confrontations. The only issue raised with increasing the speed of development abilities are two factors:

1. Devs may get lazier and, as you said in your OP, just build even bigger worlds rather than fine tuning what's already there.

2. Publishers will get greedier and see this as an opportunity for them to tout bigger worlds and... nothing more, since they know practically nothing about games and only care about the money made by it. So they find the most simplistic thing that looks like progress to them and stick to it. Thus they will again decrease the available development time of games and expect even more sequels to be pumped out, faster. Mind you these are people from packaged goods industries. So any advancement in technology to them is means for faster production and more frequent releases. They don't see it as a way to allow more time for better enhancements. Some Publishers might get it, but most won't.

So yeah, a lot of crap to talk about, but yeah in general I don't usually enjoy "open-world" more than "seamless world" games.
 

Pink Gregory

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I usually enjoy the travelling in an open-world game. That's the *only* part I like of any GTA, I loved it in RDR because it felt different, it's most of what I do in the Bethesda Fallouts.

Why should I go into an open world, or at least a game set in one large environment, while only considering set objectives?
That being said, I don't tend to question what protagonists do too much, because I am not them. Within reason.

Should I not be catered to as well?