#operationmoe/PSA; anime isn't supposed to be realistic

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

So, apparently there was a big issue with this article about moe. Here it is for context :
http://www.themarysue.com/moe-misogyny-and-masculinity/

I am amused to see someone know so much and yet understand so little. This article understands the unreality and its charm inherent in moe yet fails to realize that this thing's unreality is the reason why it is charming. She is under the impression that moe fans expect women to act like anime characters, hence moe is problematic due to setting unreasonable expectations on women.

No. Exactly because real women do not and can't be expected to act this way, does moe have value. It displays something outside the capacity of reality. An idealized fantasy. No rational woman should ever have to even attempt at competing with something that stems from pure dreams. Real entities can't ever be like an ideal. To even think the opposite is all kinds of weird.

Everyone who likes moe fully comprehends real women NEVER EVER will be like anime characters. I hope this is common sense from now on.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

Can't read the article on my phone for some reason, but moe happens for both genders so who the fuck cares? Not to mention that most of the times its for the cuteness factor rather than sexuality factor. So for example, watching cats do cute things does not mean that secretly I want to have sex with them.

The issue seems to be that by showing unrealistic forms of cuteness, an expectation is placed on real women to be cute in a similar way, in reality. It isn't even about the sex but more about it being cute in a way that women feel insecure towards, as it is unrealistic to expect them to be that way.


The good news is that nobody expects real women to behave like anime moe archetypes, so there's nothing to complain about.

 

[Zhukov]

Meh, it's TheMarySue.

Triggering nerds with this sort of stuff is their bread and butter.

 

[Neuromancer]

So, apparently there was a big issue with this article about moe. Here it is for context :
http://www.themarysue.com/moe-misogyny-and-masculinity/

I am amused to see someone know so much and yet understand so little. This article understands the unreality and its charm inherent in moe yet fails to realize that this thing's unreality is the reason why it is charming. She is under the impression that moe fans expect women to act like anime characters, hence moe is problematic due to setting unreasonable expectations on women.

I don't see where you get this from. What the article says is that moe characters are made for adult males, are almost always cute, innocent and submissive, and these qualities make the male adult readers develop feelings of protection towards them, and that it's all made to cater to that audience and results in female characters that do not represent females. All of which is true.

The writer's opinion on that isn't that its setting unreasonable expectations. As she states in the last paragraph, she finds moe alienating because, as a woman, she can't relate to those characters. She's basically asking for believable characters that women can relate to.

 

[MrCalavera_v1legacy]

It's not like that matters. The worst this article can do is piss off bunch of weaboos, but i doubt it'll be even noticed in Japan, y'know where that entire moe thing stems from.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

So, apparently there was a big issue with this article about moe. Here it is for context :
http://www.themarysue.com/moe-misogyny-and-masculinity/

I am amused to see someone know so much and yet understand so little. This article understands the unreality and its charm inherent in moe yet fails to realize that this thing's unreality is the reason why it is charming. She is under the impression that moe fans expect women to act like anime characters, hence moe is problematic due to setting unreasonable expectations on women.

I don't see where you get this from. What the article says is that moe characters are made for adult males, are almost always cute, innocent and submissive, and these qualities make the male adult readers develop feelings of protection towards them, and that it's all made to cater to that audience and results in female characters that do not represent females. All of which is true.

The writer's opinion on that isn't that its setting unreasonable expectations. As she states in the last paragraph, she finds moe alienating because, as a woman, she can't relate to those characters. She's basically asking for believable characters that women can relate to.

She states both things. The thing you mention, I covered in the PSA on the title. Anime isn't supposed to be realistic. Stating that it is unrealisic for women to behave that way hence you being unabke to relate to them flies in the face of that fact. Someone seeking realistic representations as though they are the expected thing is behaving under the wrong presupposition; that it is reasonable to expect to find realism in anime. I have already established that anime isn't supposed to be realistic, so obviously people who need realism will be unsatisfied.

That's just their personal taste of art, I prefer shows with swords cutting mountains in half. I don't go on to make a big deal that shows which aren't to my taste are somehow at fault. I just watch what is already made to appeal to me and ignore the rest, as a properly adjusted human ought to. It isn't a problem with the show if someone is unable to relate.

The sheer notion that moe chars are made to be relatable in a more grounded way like she is going for is absurd. They're made, as you say, to illicit that warm care-giving emotion. This was why I said it is amusing to know so much yet understand so little. Where the hell did the supposed "moe chars are supposed to be relatable to real women" thesis come from. Not from anywhere in the real world, that's for sure.

 

[Casual Shinji]

The fantasy and unrealistic element isn't the problem with moe, it's that the majority of anime consists of it now, because it sells merchandise and figurines.

Anime isn't supposed to be realistic, but it should strive for some more variety, and maybe even some proper representations of its characters.

 

[Neuromancer]

She states both things. The thing you mention, I covered in the PSA on the title. Anime isn't supposed to be realistic. Stating that it is unrealisic for women to behave that way hence you being unabke to relate to them flies in the face of that fact. Someone seeking realistic representations as though they are the expected thing is behaving under the wrong presupposition; that it is reasonable to expect to find realism in anime. I have already established that anime isn't supposed to be realistic, so obviously people who need realism will be unsatisfied.

It's not about realism. It's about having characters you can relate to.

You can have relatable characters and still be unrealistic. Take, for example, Neon Genesis Evangelion. Giant robots piloted by teenagers fighting against eldritch aliens. The premise is unrealistic, but most people still relate to the characters, one way or the other. Relatability has nothing to do with realism, but it has everything to do with quality and effort.

That's just their personal taste of art, I prefer shows with swords cutting mountains in half. I don't go on to make a big deal that shows which aren't to my taste are somehow at fault. I just watch what is already made to appeal to me and ignore the rest, as a properly adjusted human ought to. It isn't a problem with the show if someone is unable to relate.

I agree that this is ultimately her opinion. And in the end, it's all it is. Any person can watch something and critique what they don't like about it. The writer has written an opinion piece. That by itself does not make it a big deal.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

The fantasy and unrealistic element isn't the problem with moe, it's that the majority of anime consists of it now, because it sells merchandise and figurines.

Anime isn't supposed to be realistic, but it should strive for some more variety, and maybe even some proper representations of its characters.

That's an altogether different topic, one I agee with you on. If that was what the blog post was about nobody would have reacted thus. Oversaturation, sure. Like I said, I like shows about mountains being cut in half, not much moe goes into that teritory. Still, I don't go and call Hetalia or something out for not being to my taste.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

She states both things. The thing you mention, I covered in the PSA on the title. Anime isn't supposed to be realistic. Stating that it is unrealisic for women to behave that way hence you being unabke to relate to them flies in the face of that fact. Someone seeking realistic representations as though they are the expected thing is behaving under the wrong presupposition; that it is reasonable to expect to find realism in anime. I have already established that anime isn't supposed to be realistic, so obviously people who need realism will be unsatisfied.

It's not about realism. It's about having characters you can relate to.

You can have relatable characters and still be unrealistic. Take, for example, Neon Genesis Evangelion. Giant robots piloted by teenagers fighting against eldritch aliens. The premise is unrealistic, but most people still relate to the characters, one way or the other. Relatability has nothing to do with realism, but it has everything to do with quality and effort.

That's just their personal taste of art, I prefer shows with swords cutting mountains in half. I don't go on to make a big deal that shows which aren't to my taste are somehow at fault. I just watch what is already made to appeal to me and ignore the rest, as a properly adjusted human ought to. It isn't a problem with the show if someone is unable to relate.

I agree that this is ultimately her opinion. And in the end, it's all it is. Any person can watch something and critique what they don't like about it. The writer has written an opinion piece. That by itself does not make it a big deal.

The setting in Eva was not realistic but the actual characters were. Shinji was a real kid scared shitless, not a fake shonen protag, laughing as he fights godtier enemies in a metal grave that he can barely control. He is relatable in a way that makes us uncomfortable because it hits too close to home. So yeah, anime can definitely be realistic, and unrealisic, at times even both simultaneously. However, one ought not to expect it to be thus, ever, hence one ought not find fault with it when it isn't one way or another.


And yeah, if she had stated a mere opinion based dislike, and not called things mysogyny and whatnot, that also would have been fine too.

 

[Diablo1099_v1legacy]

The fantasy and unrealistic element isn't the problem with moe, it's that the majority of anime consists of it now, because it sells merchandise and figurines.

Anime isn't supposed to be realistic, but it should strive for some more variety, and maybe even some proper representations of its characters.

Pretty much this.

I understand merchandise driven anime, Hell, I was raised on Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon but I can't honestly say I'd be upset if less anime made characters that are designed to be on a body-pillow first and be an actual character second.
Not saying you can't do that mind, just you can't have McDonalds for every single meal...

 

[Casual Shinji]

The fantasy and unrealistic element isn't the problem with moe, it's that the majority of anime consists of it now, because it sells merchandise and figurines.

Anime isn't supposed to be realistic, but it should strive for some more variety, and maybe even some proper representations of its characters.

That's an altogether different topic, one I agee with you on. If that was what the blog post was about nobody would have reacted thus. Oversaturation, sure. Like I said, I like shows about mountains being cut in half, not much moe goes into that teritory. Still, I don't go and call Hetalia or something out for not being to my taste.

I think if it wasn't as widespread as it is articles like this wouldn't even exist. It's become the face of anime. The article even states how it's seen now as an integral part of the anime viewing experience by many. Hence why it's good to level some criticism toward it. You even have some industry giants like Hayao Miyazaki noting how anime has become this unrealistic cutesy poo land filled with nothing but the standard tropes.

Realism in fiction doesn't mean it shouldn't have any sort of oddities or deviations, but that it should have some reflections of real life and real people, and relationships, and emotions. This is why something like Evangelion, or heck, even One Punch Man can feel relatable despite the insaninty of the universe.

 

[Neuromancer]

So yeah, anime can definitely be realistic, and unrealisic, at times even both simultaneously. One ought not to expect it to be thus, ever, hence one ought not find fault with it when it isn't one way or another.

I disagree on that. As I said, the problem lies in relatability. Being unable to relate to the characters of the show hampers one's enjoyment. I do not go into an anime expecting realism. I do, however, go into it expecting at least some basic relatability with its characters. If I can't relate, then I can't enjoy the story, because I have no stakes in it.

So yes, I believe that one should expect realism in that regard, if only because you need to at least relate to a character to get some basic enjoyment out of the story.

And yeah, if she had stated a mere opinion based dislike, and not called things mysogyny and whatnot, that also would have been fine too.

I am not sure I am getting what you wrote here correctly. Are you saying that your issue is that she called things misogynistic?

If so, then it doesn't really subtract to the fact that this is still just an opinion piece. It serves to clarify part of the reason she dislikes what she watches.

 

[Bobular]

So yeah, anime can definitely be realistic, and unrealisic, at times even both simultaneously. One ought not to expect it to be thus, ever, hence one ought not find fault with it when it isn't one way or another.

I disagree on that. As I said, the problem lies in relatability. Being unable to relate to the characters of the show hampers one's enjoyment. I do not go into an anime expecting realism. I do, however, go into it expecting at least some basic relatability with its characters. If I can't relate, then I can't enjoy the story, because I have no stakes in it.

So yes, I believe that one should expect realism in that regard, if only because you need to at least relate to a character to get some basic enjoyment out of the story.

I've got to agree here.

You can have Ichigo from Bleach pop his soul out of his body and go fight monsters and what not with a sword as big as he is, which is unrealistic, but he's fighting to protect his family and friends which is a relatable motivation. I believe that is what needs to be relatable in anime, the characters motivations for doing the absurd things they do.

I do think that a problem with anime is cultural, what we in the west will look at and think is silly will be looked through Japans culture and look perfectly normal. The amount of times I've had people come into my stall and talk about how if they were in an anime situation like something they've just watched they would never act the same way but I bet[footnote]I'm no expert on Japanese culture[/footnote] that it would be considered the acceptable way to go about things in Japan.

 

[balladbird]

The fantasy and unrealistic element isn't the problem with moe, it's that the majority of anime consists of it now, because it sells merchandise and figurines.

Anime isn't supposed to be realistic, but it should strive for some more variety, and maybe even some proper representations of its characters.

pretty much this. I'mma stay neutral on the politics here, because spineless, but one of the few things I let myself have a strong opinion on is that I detest the hell out of moe. The anime market in Japan has become so specialized in extracting money from such a tiny audience that weird trends which would only be niche in any other genre become the centerpiece for business in anime.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Everyone who likes moe

There's very few ways you can end that sentence. You'd be hard pressed to find any large group where all the members fully comprehend anything.

In any case, my reading of the article is that the concern is that the genre is dominated by one particular type of moe to the exclusion of all else. Maybe that it's leaking over into over genres aimed at kids, not sure if they are trying to say that.