#operationmoe/PSA; anime isn't supposed to be realistic

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

So yeah, anime can definitely be realistic, and unrealisic, at times even both simultaneously. One ought not to expect it to be thus, ever, hence one ought not find fault with it when it isn't one way or another.

I disagree on that. As I said, the problem lies in relatability. Being unable to relate to the characters of the show hampers one's enjoyment. I do not go into an anime expecting realism. I do, however, go into it expecting at least some basic relatability with its characters. If I can't relate, then I can't enjoy the story, because I have no stakes in it.

So yes, I believe that one should expect realism in that regard, if only because you need to at least relate to a character to get some basic enjoyment out of the story.

And yeah, if she had stated a mere opinion based dislike, and not called things mysogyny and whatnot, that also would have been fine too.

I am not sure I am getting what you wrote here correctly. Are you saying that your issue is that she called things misogynistic?

If so, then it doesn't really subtract to the fact that this is still just an opinion piece. It serves to clarify part of the reason she dislikes what she watches.

When one states that the reason they can't relate is the lack of realism, you do indeed have what I describe. Now, not everyone needs characters to be realistic to be relatable, but the author clearly does. I am obviously not against chars being relatable. I am against the notion that, just in general, chars have to reflect how real people act to be relatable. No, that's just that one person's taste.

Mysogyny isn't opinion-based so one can't just shake it off like one does someone's random opinion. It is exactly why people use such terms, they are harder to dismiss than their otherwise unincredible opinion. Similarly, one needs further proof than an opinion to establish such a characterization onto a work and not have people call BS. This is why the reaction. If all you say is "moe shows contain unrelatable chars for someone of my tastes and opinions, hence they are mysogynistic" the only right answer is a very confused "wtf...?".

 

[sageoftruth]

Mysogyny isn't opinion-based so one can't just shake it off like one does someone's random opinion. It is exactly why people use such terms, they are harder to dismiss than their otherwise unincredible opinion. Similarly, one needs further proof than an opinion to establish such a characterization onto a work and not have people call BS. This is why the reaction. If all you say is "moe shows contain unrelatable chars for someone of my tastes and opinions, hence they are mysogynistic" the only right answer is a very confused "wtf...?".

I took a look through the article. From what I've read, she seemed well aware of the fact that men don't expect this kind of behavior from real women. Where the "mysogyny" part comes in (if we're using that word) is from something I hadn't considered before: Do the shows also have a young girl following? If that's the case, it could lead to young girls growing up with role models who were designed to pander to men.
Naturally, this doesn't mean we should get rid of it. We wouldn't just burn the entire world's supply of porn because the bored housewife and the sexy nurse were not good role models for young women. If anything, I'd consider it a warning to parents to make sure their daughters aren't self-identifying with Umaru-Chan.
Then again, there really wasn't any "And therefore me must" statement in the article. It just pointed out that we've got a conundrum where moe has two markets and pandering to one may hurt the show's appeal for the other.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

Mysogyny isn't opinion-based so one can't just shake it off like one does someone's random opinion. It is exactly why people use such terms, they are harder to dismiss than their otherwise unincredible opinion. Similarly, one needs further proof than an opinion to establish such a characterization onto a work and not have people call BS. This is why the reaction. If all you say is "moe shows contain unrelatable chars for someone of my tastes and opinions, hence they are mysogynistic" the only right answer is a very confused "wtf...?".

I took a look through the article. From what I've read, she seemed well aware of the fact that men don't expect this kind of behavior from real women. Where the "mysogyny" part comes in (if we're using that word) is from something I hadn't considered before: Do the shows also have a young girl following? If that's the case, it could lead to young girls growing up with role models who were designed to pander to men.
Naturally, this doesn't mean we should get rid of it. We wouldn't just burn the entire world's supply of porn because the bored housewife and the sexy nurse were not good role models for young women. If anything, I'd consider it a warning to parents to make sure their daughters aren't self-identifying with Umaru-Chan.
Then again, there really wasn't any "And therefore me must" statement in the article. It just pointed out that we've got a conundrum where moe has two markets and pandering to one may hurt the show's appeal for the other.

It really depends on the anime, some are late night shows, others like K-on or Ika Musume have a wider audience. And young kids by definition should have their entertainment monitored by their family. If a parent doesn't want the kids watching Haruhi, it is obviously the parent's right to say no. Nobody ever would say otherwise hence you needn't mention such an obvious point at all in the first place.

The issue isn't that a mention of a course of action was made. The issue is that the notion that the concept of moe in and of itself (not how ubiquitous it is, which is a separate and very real issue, just the mere concept of such a show) is inherently possesing of such negative elements.

 

[Here Comes Tomorrow]

Good. I hate moe-blobs.

 

[RaikuFA]

Meh, it's TheMarySue.

Triggering nerds with this sort of stuff is their bread and butter.

It's pretty bad that I already know exactly which users are going to flock to this thread and what they're going to say.

Another day at the escapist

I do too. Scary.

There was a video by Gaijin Goomba where he had a debate with Akidearest on Moe and she said it was like junk food, good to have in small doses but watching nothing but Moe anime is toxic to the viewer.

 

[Weaver]

I fucking love moe and I really see no problem with the genre. Don't feel moe was made for you? It probably wasn't, watch something else.

I also disagree that "every show is moe" that old anime fans, typically from the 80's, seem to keep parroting. There's literally one and only one "pure" moe show this season and that's New Game!. Okay okay, maybe 2 if you count that art club show which to me is just an SoL. SoL != moe.

There are dozens of non-moe shows a season. If none of them for you then maybe you should just come to terms that you and anime no longer get along. Is 91 days moe? Mob Psycho? The new Berserk? Alderman on the Sky? Orange? Taboo Tattoo? Re:Zero? Days? Ace Attorney? Qualidea Code? The Morose Mononokean? Gundam Unicorn? hitorinoshita? Active Raid?

I could go on, but this is just a small handful of non-moe shows that are currently airing. If you can't find anything, maybe you're just done with anime.

edit: edited some stuff to expand on my thoughts.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

Meh, it's TheMarySue.

Triggering nerds with this sort of stuff is their bread and butter.

It's pretty bad that I already know exactly which users are going to flock to this thread and what they're going to say.

Another day at the escapist

I do too. Scary.

There was a video by Gaijin Goomba where he had a debate with Akidearest on Moe and she said it was like junk food, good to have in small doses but watching nothing but Moe anime is toxic to the viewer.

I know the one. Especially their last analogy was a very apt one. They are like a little sister character, you can't really have an entire show consisting of only little sisters, that'd be too much of a good thing. But the occasional one here and there (Nanako from persona 4 being one of my faves) is fine.

I fucking love moe and I really see no problem with the genre. Don't feel moe was made for you? It probably wasn't, watch something else.

I also disagree that "every show is moe" that old anime fans, typically from the 80's, seem to keep parroting. There's literally one and only one moe show this season.

I know the type, as I was born in the late 80s. They have nostalgia goggles on so deep inside their eyes they have melded with their skull and do not notice it. They only remember the feeling of old anime when they saw it as kids so now they look at newer stuff as adults and use adult judgement and their current tastes, without bothering to suspend disbelief. They forget how original DB was basically a pantyshot show for the first season with Bulma being 16 at the time and how Rin in Fist of the North Star had similar treatment and she was shorter than Ken's admittedly gigantic arm. They act as though moe or fanservice just sprouted out of the ground. In fact, it was always essentially there.

I try to keep myself modern and up to date and while I do love a lot of the old stuff I try to nurture the next generation. I can't handle how some people act like totally average shows like sword art are the worst thing ever, just because they're popular and they know about them. Truth is they have been out of touch with everything for long enough that they can't meaningfully compare stuff any more.

 

[RaikuFA]

Meh, it's TheMarySue.

Triggering nerds with this sort of stuff is their bread and butter.

It's pretty bad that I already know exactly which users are going to flock to this thread and what they're going to say.

Another day at the escapist

I do too. Scary.

There was a video by Gaijin Goomba where he had a debate with Akidearest on Moe and she said it was like junk food, good to have in small doses but watching nothing but Moe anime is toxic to the viewer.

I know the one. Especially their last analogy was a very apt one. They are like a little sister character, you can't really have an entire show consisting of only little sisters, that'd be too much of a good thing. But the occasional one here and there (Nanako from persona 4 being one of my faves) is fine.

I don't remember that but I haven't seen it since it was released. I just remember the junk food comparison. Here it is for anyone who is curious:


Also I like K-On. But mainly cause I like the music humor.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

The fantasy and unrealistic element isn't the problem with moe, it's that the majority of anime consists of it now, because it sells merchandise and figurines.

Anime isn't supposed to be realistic, but it should strive for some more variety, and maybe even some proper representations of its characters.

Yep, I second the notion. I like cute as much as the next person but i'm staring to see the strings behind the puppet with what they are trying to do with moe. It's getting annoying.

Hell, the only "cute" character i've seen that I can actively enjoy rather than be neutral on is Mayuri Shiina from Steins; Gate since while she is unrealistic in her airheaded nature, she also has some surprising insight on how the events of the story are affecting Okabe and they made a character that, while is still a bit fake, i can sympathize with a lot more than the girls designed for moe

But yeah, Dreiko, my issue with Moe is that it's starting to get stale and it annoys me

 

[Hazy992]

The main reason I don't like moe is because anime is fucking dominated by it now, it's become really damn boring. Oh wow another slice of life show set in a high school with moe girls, I bet that took you all ten whole seconds to think of that one!

And yeah I know it's because it sells and yada-yada-yada, doesn't mean I can't be utterly fucking sick of it.

 

[Fox12]

I don't care if it's realistic or not. It needs to die, so that we can get more shows like Berserk, Neon Genesis, and Cowboy Bebop. I blame haruhi for this mess.

 

[Neverhoodian]

...It's The Mary Sue. What did you expect?

I haven't watched much anime. My resume consists mostly of Miyazaki films, Fruits Basket, some Pokemon and Digimon during my adolescence and tortuous Dragon Ball Z sessions because a friend insisted I'd like it (I don't). I have little to zero experience with moe.[footnote]now Moe from the Three Stooges...that's a different matter entirely.[/footnote] That said, it seems to me like it's just another harmless fantasy. Thing is, most well-adjusted individuals know full well it's a fantasy and don't try to project it onto the real world.

And for the love of God, are people STILL referring to the "Bechdel Test" like it's some kind of gold standard to aspire to? It was a punch line in a comic strip! I mean, come on people, it's [CURRENT YEAR]!

 

[Fat Hippo]

Eh, don't really agree with the article, as she sees Mo? as part of a systemic misrepresentation of women in anime. While I would argue the problem isn't just that women are poorly represented in anim? these days, but just...human beings.

By which I mean the thing that's already been mentioned in this thread, which is that characters which behave and feel like real human beings are sorely lacking in many modern shows. They're all just the same fucking archetypes, repeated ad nauseum, doing the kinds of things that particular archetype apparently always has to do. The fact that a "tsundere" became something which just gets copy-pasted into fucking everything is a joke, utter creative bankruptcy. The same thing goes for many Mo?-type characters. And we can see the same approach and lack of creativity for male protagonists as well.

Now, as Goomba mentioned in the video RaikuFA posted, this isn't exclusively a bad thing. It's junk food, and that's okay sometimes. There's just been way too much of it these last few years. Pandering to one specific fanbase like this isn't healthy for the medium, and the weird shit that has simply become accepted in anim? over time is actually pretty alienating for new viewers.

 

[Fox12]

I don't care if it's realistic or not. It needs to die, so that we can get more shows like Berserk, Neon Genesis, and Cowboy Bebop. I blame haruhi for this mess.

I blame Rei from your Evangelion.

Rei's creepy af. I can't imagine a less moe character. Unless you put Guts in a dress or something.

 

[WindKnight]

I don't care if it's realistic or not. It needs to die, so that we can get more shows like Berserk, Neon Genesis, and Cowboy Bebop. I blame haruhi for this mess.

I blame Rei from your Evangelion.

Rei's creepy af. I can't imagine a less moe character. Unless you put Guts in a dress or something.

Didn't stop people from twisting her into their fantasies. So pure! So quiet! Look at her blush! That smile, so rare and precious! Her suit is so sexy! People are still fapping over her, sometimes thinking of her as a mother figure (since she kinda is). It was only a matter of time.

See also Ruri Hoshino - meant as a parody of the kind of Rei-Ayanami-a-like characters sprouting up in shows, she arguably eclipsed Rei herself in popularity for a time, and the merchandisers milked it for all it was worth.

As to the thread itself...

The big problem itself is how anime make money at the moment. They want a guaranteed return on investment, so the anime producers are targeting what are essentially the 'whales' of the anime market - 30-something well-off dudes (typically in IT or tech support) who are single and willing to drop $500 on a dvd boxset and all the merchandising that goes with it, so they can make a profit even if they sell only, say, 500 sets or so. This may work in the short term, but long term, it's gonna collapse.. and their ignoring or actively alienating other potential audiences with the uber focus on moe for moe's sake.

 

[Dragonbums]

I don't care if it's realistic or not. It needs to die, so that we can get more shows like Berserk, Neon Genesis, and Cowboy Bebop. I blame haruhi for this mess.

I blame Rei from your Evangelion.

Rei's creepy af. I can't imagine a less moe character. Unless you put Guts in a dress or something.

Didn't stop people from twisting her into their fantasies. So pure! So quiet! Look at her blush! That smile, so rare and precious! Her suit is so sexy! People are still fapping over her, sometimes thinking of her as a mother figure (since she kinda is). It was only a matter of time.

See also Ruri Hoshino - meant as a parody of the kind of Rei-Ayanami-a-like characters sprouting up in shows, she arguably eclipsed Rei herself in popularity for a time, and the merchandisers milked it for all it was worth.

As to the thread itself...

The big problem itself is how anime make money at the moment. They want a guaranteed return on investment, so the anime producers are targeting what are essentially the 'whales' of the anime market - 30-something well-off dudes (typically in IT or tech support) who are single and willing to drop $500 on a dvd boxset and all the merchandising that goes with it, so they can make a profit even if they sell only, say, 500 sets or so. This may work in the short term, but long term, it's gonna collapse.. and their ignoring or actively alienating other potential audiences with the uber focus on moe for moe's sake.

The core issue of this money making scheme is that it's a solution to a huge problem in Japan that is stamped out constantly here. Which is the unrestrained illegal streaming of television shows on the internet. It's a major problem there and there and short of a widespread, controversial, government ban and extermination it's gotten too big to topple.

Here in the US and Europe most shows can comfortably make money off of television viewership alone. Encouraging fans to watch it on tv before going on to watch it online. Hell this is arguably why a lot of sites like KissAnime/Cartoon haven't been stomped yet because aside from hiding behind dozens of proxys in other countries- they wait a good 1 and 30 minutes after the original show aired before putting up new episodes on their site.
However in Japan the episode uploading is almost instant.
While DVD and merchandise sales are a nice bonus over here, it's an absolute necessity in Japan because they get scrap money from television viewership because most viewers can simply watch it for free on episode streaming sites and said sites aren't paying those producers a single fucking cent for it.

Which leads to studios having to make shows that sell the most merchandise. And that just happens to be flat line moe trash with minimal effort and animators willing to make them become a reality regardless of how utterly pitiful and downright illegal paywages (and if they don't like it they can kiss their job goodbye to some other overworked dog or overseas animating.)

This leaves anime that DOESN'T cater to this having to input it in some way or rely on studios and publishers willing to take a risk a show that actually tells something of substance without any pandering bs.

I think once the natures of monetary flow to a studio through television changes for the much better we aren't going to see any real change to the moe scene unless the well to do middle aged guys decided Evangelion destuctionist anime is the new hype as opposed to moe.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

I don't care if it's realistic or not. It needs to die, so that we can get more shows like Berserk, Neon Genesis, and Cowboy Bebop. I blame haruhi for this mess.

If you want more shows like that, watch the shows that are like that instead of going after moe anime. You want Berserk? It's on right now (quality debatable :\). You want NGE? You could watch RE:Zero (personally I'm waiting on the next season of Knights of Sidonia). You want Cowboy Bebop? Watch 91 Days. These anime are out there, you can't really say that moe is dominating the anime scene unless you're just focusing on moe anime.