Opinion: Because of Saren ME 2&3 Will Never Outplay ME1

[Fappy]

Mass Effect 1&2 spoilers to follow...

I was thinking a bit ago why I am so concerned about ME3's story and I think i finally figured it out. Saren was a really, really good bad guy. I mean... he was executed perfectly. He had an interesting backstory, he was a bad ass, he was dangerous, he was a total asshole we loved to hate and he was ultimately misguided. When we found out he wasn't really evil but rather just the ultimate Lawful Neutral jerkoff who knew how to get stuff done we suddenly felt bad for him. He honestly wanted to protect the galaxy, not just the turians (though he was a racist), but the whole galaxy. What he got in return was a large dose of mind rape. As Shepard we competed with him intellectually and physically and while it felt like he was always one step ahead it felt almost like the perfect rivalry.

You were trying to prove to yourself and the galaxy that humanity could get the job done, and on a personal note you wanted to prove that you were better than an old warhorse who had fallen from grace. And I realize that no choice is canon in Mass Effect, but I think we can all agree that convincing Saren to off himself is FAR more compelling and awesome than fighting him yourself.

By the time ME2 starts Saren's been long dead and our new antagonist is a faceless/vague Reaper threat that eventually becomes the Collectors, then Harbinger and then by proxy Illusive Man in a sense. ME2's story had a similar-yet opposite problem that the Phantom Menace had. While there is no real main character in Phantom Menace there is also no discernible main villain in ME2. This is a strength and a weakness for the game because while it made its story a bit less focused we got an awesome sense of insecurity and uncertainty. Should we really be work for The Illusive Man? Is he bad? What's the whole story?

Now we're moving into ME3 and while I don't know story specifics beyond the whats been revealed from Bioware's terrible marketing department (If you post leaked spoilers in here I will hunt you down!) it appears as if our main enemy is... the faceless Reaper threat. Well I suppose Illusive Man may be the ultimate bad guy in some sense, too early to tell but I feel like the time of ME2's uncertainty should be over now. It's the grand finale. The end. We need to draw the lines, distinguish friend from foe and finish the fight. The faceless Reapers are an incredibly detached ultimate villain and I really hope it isn't as simple as that. As for The Illusive Man, well... he's kind of just a crazy old guy that manipulated you. He is an awesome and interesting character, yes, but who's the guy we are supposed to hate? Who's the guy we are supposed to be locked in mental/philosophical/physical combat with that needs the fate of the galaxy wrestled out of their hands?

I think I am reading too far in to this. TL;DR Saren was a boss and I really don't see how they will top him.

 

[RJ 17]

You know what? That is actually a very good point. Indeed Saren did give the story of ME 1 focus. He's everything you could wish for in a villain, he almost literally sits in Sovereign, wringing his hands (or...claws...talons..whatever Turians have ) getting pissed off over your actions and plotting new ways to stop you. He puts a face to the enemy and gives you a designated target to hunt down.

One could argue that Harbinger himself fills this role, as he's always harassing you in combat in ME 2. But I can understand your point that even so he's not nearly up to the caliber of Saren. Saren is a boss, Harbinger is an annoyance. And to be honest with you I do agree that ME 3 needs a "general" for the bad guys, a face to put to the evil other than the apparently thousands of Reapers that are now openly invading the galaxy. The hologram on Ilos mentioned that "it is likely Sovereign had numerous sleeper agents working for him, Saren was just the one that was easiest to spot" (or something like that). As such, perhaps we'll get a new main villain...but to be honest, I wouldn't hold my breath on that note, seeing as how the ultimate villains of the series, The Reapers, have officially invaded.

 

[Fappy]

Funny, I thought Saren was the most lackluster villain one could wish for. The twisted villain with what he thinks is good intentions has been so overdone over the years, it made ME1s main story feel like a lesson in cliches.

For all its faffing about, and even though nothing really happened, I found Mass Effect 2 much more engaging in that respect, because there was an air of mystery to the whole thing. In ME2, you have no idea what Ceberus really wants. In ME1, pretty much all is revealed from the get go.

Letting go the storylines that have been done thousands of times is a step in the RIGHT direction to me. No main bad guy? Good! I dont need one, I dont want one. Mass Effects story doesnt need one. Saren, generic villain number 54610, was holding the story down in my opinion. He had NOTHING that set him apart from the norm. Nothing.

I can totally see where your coming from, and I admit he does suffer from cliche, but he just felt like a very tangible character to me. There was an unspoken rivalry between you that I felt was more compelling than any I had seen in a game before. His issue for me is that he is generic villain number 54610 until Virmire where he becomes a bit more fleshed out. You learn he's a bit of a cliche in the fact that he is the unwitting villain, but you also see his side of the story. The final confrontation is really what his whole character is about imo. He ceases to be just a generic villain when he is able to summon the will power to do what is right and kill himself. At least that's how I felt about it.

Anyway, I think a good counter argument to my own that plays well with yours is that Mass Effect is ultimately Shepard's story. I suppose you don't really need a big bad if your main enemies are the people who are supposed to be helping you *cough* *cough* the Council.

 

[The Wykydtron]

I hope ME3 has some sort of cyborg villain type person in charge of the Reapers. Villains are better with humanish attributes as a general rule. Talking ships kinda lack that, regardless of their UNLIMITED POWAH!. Plus cyborgs are completely badass.

How the balls is TIM gonna factor into ME3? He's against you now from what the early press releases said. Wait... He's gonna be the cyborg villain! He was working for the Reapers all along! That's why he has those awesome eyes!

Note that if any dickcheese who's read all the leaked spoilers comes and lays out the entire plot I will be honourbound to destroy everything you possess.

 

[Fappy]

I hope ME3 has some sort of cyborg villain type person in charge of the Reapers. Villains are better with humanish attributes as a general rule. Talking ships kinda lack that, regardless of their UNLIMITED POWAH!. Plus cyborgs are completely badass.

How the balls is TIM gonna factor into ME3? He's against you now from what the early press releases said. Wait... He's gonna be the cyborg villain! He was working for the Reapers all along! That's why he has those awesome eyes!

Note that if any dickcheese who's read all the leaked spoiler comes and lays out the entire plot I will be honourbound to destroy everything you possess.

The eyes are explained in tie-in comics. Actually, I think they have spent WAY TOO MUCH time in books, comics, etc. expanding on TIM's backstory. I liked it when it was more mysterious... though having the eyes explained is important I suppose

 

[Erttheking]

Saren? The guy didn't even pop up until Virmire. Until then you had to listen to people talk about how awesome and dangerous he was, Sovereign was a better villain, sure he didn't pop up until the end too, but then again he was supposed to be a twist, so it worked. Saren was just a puppet.

 

[Fappy]

Saren? The guy didn't even pop up until Virmire. Until then you had to listen to people talk about how awesome and dangerous he was, Sovereign was a better villain, sure he didn't pop up until the end too, but then again he was supposed to be a twist, so it worked. Saren was just a puppet.

While cool in his own right Sovereign had no complexity to him. All he was, was a giant robot squid that wanted to kill you.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

Mass Effect 1&2 spoilers to follow...

I was thinking a bit ago why I am so concerned about ME3's story and I think i finally figured it out. Saren was a really, really good bad guy. I mean... he was executed perfectly. He had an interesting backstory, he was a bad ass, he was dangerous, he was a total asshole we loved to hate and he was ultimately misguided. When we found out he wasn't really evil but rather just the ultimate Lawful Neutral jerkoff who knew how to get stuff done we suddenly felt bad for him. He honestly wanted to protect the galaxy, not just the turians (though he was a racist), but the whole galaxy. What he got in return was a large dose of mind rape. As Shepard we competed with him intellectually and physically and while it felt like he was always one step ahead it felt almost like the perfect rivalry.

You were trying to prove to yourself and the galaxy that humanity could get the job done, and on a personal note you wanted to prove that you were better than an old warhorse who had fallen from grace. And I realize that no choice is canon in Mass Effect, but I think we can all agree that convincing Saren to off himself is FAR more compelling and awesome than fighting him yourself.

By the time ME2 starts Saren's been long dead and our new antagonist is a faceless/vague Reaper threat that eventually becomes the Collectors, then Harbinger and then by proxy Illusive Man in a sense. ME2's story had a similar-yet opposite problem that the Phantom Menace had. While there is no real main character in Phantom Menace there is also no discernible main villain in ME2. This is a strength and a weakness for the game because while it made its story a bit less focused we got an awesome sense of insecurity and uncertainty. Should we really be work for The Illusive Man? Is he bad? What's the whole story?

Now we're moving into ME3 and while I don't know story specifics beyond the whats been revealed from Bioware's terrible marketing department (If you post leaked spoilers in here I will hunt you down!) it appears as if our main enemy is... the faceless Reaper threat. Well I suppose Illusive Man may be the ultimate bad guy in some sense, too early to tell but I feel like the time of ME2's uncertainty should be over now. It's the grand finale. The end. We need to draw the lines, distinguish friend from foe and finish the fight. The faceless Reapers are an incredibly detached ultimate villain and I really hope it isn't as simple as that. As for The Illusive Man, well... he's kind of just a crazy old guy that manipulated you. He is an awesome and interesting character, yes, but who's the guy we are supposed to hate? Who's the guy we are supposed to be locked in mental/philosophical/physical combat with that needs the fate of the galaxy wrestled out of their hands?

I think I am reading too far in to this. TL;DR Saren was a boss and I really don't see how they will top him.

highly agree to this, the first time i caught up to saren, i literally had the *knuckle cracking beat up time* moment going through my head, i wanted nothing more than to see his misguided face smashed into the ground by my foot.

Best played/flushed out villain by far in any series i have played imo

 

[Erttheking]

Saren? The guy didn't even pop up until Virmire. Until then you had to listen to people talk about how awesome and dangerous he was, Sovereign was a better villain, sure he didn't pop up until the end too, but then again he was supposed to be a twist, so it worked. Saren was just a puppet.

While cool in his own right Sovereign had no complexity to him. All he was, was a giant robot squid that wanted to kill you.

Meh, I guess that you're right, I'm just a sucker for that speech that he gives.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

Saren? The guy didn't even pop up until Virmire. Until then you had to listen to people talk about how awesome and dangerous he was, Sovereign was a better villain, sure he didn't pop up until the end too, but then again he was supposed to be a twist, so it worked. Saren was just a puppet.

While cool in his own right Sovereign had no complexity to him. All he was, was a giant robot squid that wanted to kill you.

Meh, I guess that you're right, I'm just a sucker for that speech that he gives.

"You live because we allow it, and you will die because we demand it."
Gets me every time.
OP: Yeah, having an identifiable villain like Saren really helped ME and the lack of one hurt ME2.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

The main problem is that the second game didn't really have a major threat. In Mass Effect 1, you are attacked constantly by the Geth. They are a constant presence, setting up ambushes across the Attican Traverse to make sure you know that Saren is gunning for you.

In Mass Effect 2, the Collectors only show up whenever the Illusive Man decides it's a smart idea to throw you into an obvious trap with false intel. 90% of Mass Effect 2 was fighting mercenary bands and decimating organized crime across the Terminus Systems.

As long as the threat of the Reapers is shown and experienced, instead of told, the threat will be far more potent than the boring Collectors.

 

[Yureina]

Pffft. Saren is small fry next to Jon Irenicus.

More to the point, no, as mediocre as he was, Saren was still leagues ahead of THIS HURTS YOU, SHEPARD. I HAVE A BOOMING VOICE AND A VERY PISSED OFF TONE. BE SCARED OF ME. WOOO-O-O-O-O-O!

Totally this. But I am the sort that thinks *all* of Bioware's RPG villains have been small fries since Sarevok and Jon Irenicus.

On topic, I did really like Saren and found him to be a good villain despite him being a pretty common type of bad guy. ME2 was good, but moreso for its cast of party characters and the build-up towards the final mission rather than anything else. As for ME3 though... I agree there needs to be some serious bad guy at the end. Somebody interesting that you need to beat in order to stop the invasion. Otherwise... it will just seem bland. x_x

 

[TD_Knight]

Saren hardly had that much screen time to be that great of a villain.

You see him briefly at the beginning, and at the Citadel trial after. There's a little cutscene with Benezia saying something like 'that human must be dealt with.' Then you see him on Virmire, where you've figured out he's been brainwashed due to Benezia and Rana pretty much telling you. And then you see him again right at the end.

The only other information you get about him is from Anderson saying that he sabotaged Anderson's Spectre try outs, doesn't like humans, and is generally a mean piece of work.

Besides, I couldn't particularly take him seriously after beating him in 5 seconds on Virmire, and practically meleeing him to death in the final boss fight.

 

[Fappy]

Saren? The guy didn't even pop up until Virmire. Until then you had to listen to people talk about how awesome and dangerous he was, Sovereign was a better villain, sure he didn't pop up until the end too, but then again he was supposed to be a twist, so it worked. Saren was just a puppet.

While cool in his own right Sovereign had no complexity to him. All he was, was a giant robot squid that wanted to kill you.

Meh, I guess that you're right, I'm just a sucker for that speech that he gives.

That speech gave me a boner too. No lie.

 

[Zhukov]

Except Saren was a lousy character.

Conceptually, he was alright. Somebody who saw what was coming and decided collaboration was preferable to utter extinction. But his execution was terrible.

He kicks things off with that horribly corny introduction [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrgNgnkvrA0]. Then he just vanishes for the entire game. Apart from a brief appearance as a floating hologram at the council, he doesn't show up until the endgame on Virmire, when he reappears and starts spouting more cliches. ("Join me Shepard, and together we will rule the galaxy as father... oh wait.")

Then, having been completely overshadowed by Sovereign in the villain stakes he promptly shoots himself because Shepard gives him a telling off.

Oh, and lest we forget he then turns into a robot frog and starts hopping around the walls shooting lasers.

I can see the problem of having faceless Reapers as the main antagonists and I don't know how they plan to handle it, but I think we're better off without Saren running about on the periphery shouting cliches at anyone who stands still long enough.

(Edited for needless profanity.)

 

[Fappy]

I can see the problem of having faceless Reapers as the main antagonists and I don't know how they plan to handle it, but I think we're better off without Saren running about on the periphery shouting cliches at anyone who stands still long enough.

At least my main point hit home. I guess I shouldn't expect everyone to think "Saren made ME1 better than the rest", but rather, ME1 has a more focused story because of Saren. Hopefully they come up with something clever for ME3.

 

[skywolfblue]

Except Saren was a shit character.

Conceptually, he was alright. Somebody who saw what was coming and decided collaboration was preferable to utter extinction. But his execution was terrible.

He kicks things off with that horribly corny introduction [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrgNgnkvrA0]. Then he just vanishes for the entire game. Apart from a brief appearance as a floating hologram at the council, he doesn't show up until the endgame on Virmire, when he reappears and starts spouting more cliches. ("Join me Shepard, and together we will rule the galaxy as father... oh wait.")

Then, having been completely overshadowed by Sovereign in the villain stakes he promptly shoots himself because Shepard gives him a telling off.

Oh, and lest we forget he then turns into a robot frog and starts hopping around the walls shooting lasers.

I can see the problem of having faceless Reapers as the main antagonists and I don't know how they plan to handle it, but I think we're better off without Saren running about on the periphery shouting cliches at anyone who stands still long enough.

This. I felt Saren was pretty boring.

His lines were rather painfully cliché, his fight(s) weren't particularly memorable or amazing gameplay-wise.

Given, the collectors and the human reaper weren't all that particularly amazing either. But the rest of ME2 made up for that.