Opinion: Because of Saren ME 2&3 Will Never Outplay ME1

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Crelda

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When I think of Saren I just see him as the first stepping stone in the line of collected play things at the disposal of the unfathomable Reaper threat. Saren could only have made sense as the villain in the first game. He was the closest to home which helps ramp up the realisation of what kind of force we are dealing with in the scope of the series. The Collectors were alot less human on purpose because they are supposed to be, as we head towards the even less human Reapers. The revelation that the collectors are ex-Protheans, a group of beings who were much more advanced than the current races helps again to show the power of the reapers as they transformed what you would assume to be a more worthy foe (to the reapers) into slightly fancier looking husks.

It is now up to the story in ME3 to make me feel like the build up was worth it and have the reapers being the right amount of mysterious and unpredictability and make me feel like the reapers are the fierce enemy they I have been lead to believe they can be.
 

Mysticgamer

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Fappy said:
erttheking said:
Fappy said:
erttheking said:
Saren? The guy didn't even pop up until Virmire. Until then you had to listen to people talk about how awesome and dangerous he was, Sovereign was a better villain, sure he didn't pop up until the end too, but then again he was supposed to be a twist, so it worked. Saren was just a puppet.
While cool in his own right Sovereign had no complexity to him. All he was, was a giant robot squid that wanted to kill you.
Meh, I guess that you're right, I'm just a sucker for that speech that he gives.
That speech gave me a boner too. No lie.
True but that's because Sovereign sounds like G1 Soundwave.
 

Hyper-space

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The Wykydtron said:
I hope ME3 has some sort of cyborg villain type person in charge of the Reapers. Villains are better with humanish attributes as a general rule. Talking ships kinda lack that, regardless of their UNLIMITED POWAH!. Plus cyborgs are completely badass.
I don't know, wouldn't that make the reapers a bit too familiar? Their whole "thing" is that they are a ancient as balls race of...spaceship-thingies. Their unusual appearance give them an air of mystery that is needed when dealing with these types of villains.

Although I liked both Saren and the Reapers, I thought that ME2 had the better villains due to the uncertain nature of the story. I don't know, sometimes its just refreshing seeing something a bit different from the obviously punchable villain.
 

WaywardHaymaker

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Mass Effect 2 lacked a good foil for Shepard, but in Mass Effect 3 we'll have the Illusive Man being the villain I've always expected and his pet N7 operative, Kai Leng. I like Saren, too, but Cerberus should prove to be a great face for the Reapers.
 

The Wykydtron

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Sep 23, 2010
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Hyper-space said:
The Wykydtron said:
I hope ME3 has some sort of cyborg villain type person in charge of the Reapers. Villains are better with humanish attributes as a general rule. Talking ships kinda lack that, regardless of their UNLIMITED POWAH!. Plus cyborgs are completely badass.
I don't know, wouldn't that make the reapers a bit too familiar? Their whole "thing" is that they are a ancient as balls race of...spaceship-thingies. Their unusual appearance give them an air of mystery that is needed when dealing with these types of villains.

Although I liked both Saren and the Reapers, I thought that ME2 had the better villains due to the uncertain nature of the story. I don't know, sometimes its just refreshing seeing something a bit different from the obviously punchable villain.
Yeah fair point, I'm just running on whatever I can grasp from ME2 (dark energy anyone?) and the very early press releases. Bioware has a habit of throwing mild spoilers out before launch so I got out sharpish.

I still like the whole TIM working for the Reapers thing. Cyborg badassery and mysterious Space Calamaris! Everybody wins!

Seems like the only good enough reason to have him as a proper "Shep must die even though I threw absurd amounts of money at him/her in the last game" villain. Not to mention he even said Shep was their only chance... Do you often attempt to kill your only chance for survival TIM?

Or maybe bringing Shep back to life and then offing him/her again later was just part of his long term plan to rule the galaxy!
 

Bara_no_Hime

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Fappy said:
Except that the Illusive Man is a really interesting and complex villain. Plus, his interactions with Saren (in the comics) mean that the Illusive Man is sort of like a human Saren.

Either way, they're both Reaper Tainted individuals who are trying to fight against their destiny (so far the Illusive Man is doing a better job of it, but it sounds like he's going the way of Saren in ME3).

So yeah - not worried. Martin Sheen is fucking awesome. ^^
 

Vivi22

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vrbtny said:
Fappy said:
Saren lost all interest for me when it was revealed he had been indoctrinated, and didn't truly believe in what he was doing. Far more interesting if the bad guy is actually a proper bad guy.
Glad I'm not the only one who was bothered by that. Seriously, nothing undermines a villain more than mind control. It's cliche and overdone, and completely uninteresting. Why in the hell does anyone think that chasing one guy the entire game only to find out he was a hapless pawn and didn't even know it is a good plot development? It's just plain lazy writing. That shit may have skated by in 1991 when Final Fantasy IV came out, but we need to move the hell on now.

The fact that he wasn't overly interesting even ignoring the mind control element didn't make me like him anymore either.

All that said, I haven't played ME2, and may never play it, so I can't comment on whether it's story and villain/s were any better. I have absolutely no idea. And if there was less focus on one villain I could see it suffering a bit for it, but that doesn't mean Saren was good for ME1, or a good villain.
 

Freechoice

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Ordinaryundone said:
The Illusive Man is set up to be a FAR more interesting villain than Saren ever was.
I would actually respect Bioware if they managed to shoehorn in Charlie Sheen as either the endgame villain or a very powerful ally that kicks as much ass as Shepard.
 

Cal Thomas

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Kay, here's the thing as far as I see it;

All the ME games have had really strong character work- that's the biggest thing they've had going for them. I don't know or have heard of a single person who goes into a ME game for the "Thrilling Gameplay".

ME1 had extremely strong overarching characters; Saren, yes, but also Benezia, Captian Andersson, Udina, the Councelors, all of them, but was somewhat lacking in the more personal characters' side of things. Unless you were a completionist, it was perfectly feasible that you could skip over all of the Squadmates' personal missions or dialogue outside of the main game and the LI's.

ME2 utterly slammed ME1 in developing the central squadmates and ancillary characters (EDI, Joker, Chakwas, etc,) but went a little soft in having a solid villian to face. They offset that gap by, as the OP said, making it more about the sense of uncertianty, of fear, making that ambiguousity the Main Point rather than an inconvenient weakness.

And then in ME3 they focused on improving the Gameplay. Like they did with Dragon Age 2.

I'm really hoping there's a ton more to the game than what they've been showing in the trailers, for Bioware's sake as much as mine. Cause if this turns out to be another DA2-style Cool-Advancement-of-the-in-game-universe-but-mainly-crappy-game deal, they're gonna have a tough time pulling themselves back out of the pit.
 

Fappy

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Freechoice said:
Ordinaryundone said:
The Illusive Man is set up to be a FAR more interesting villain than Saren ever was.
I would actually respect Bioware if they managed to shoehorn in Charlie Sheen as either the endgame villain or a very powerful ally that kicks as much ass as Shepard.
Martin Sheen wouldn't sign on if he knew his asshole son was part of the project :p
 

everythingbeeps

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ME1 had a better story. But gameplay-wise, ME2 killed it, and I just have a hard time believing ME3 could possibly improve on ME2's gameplay. The best I can really hope for is that it's the same.
 

RedDeadFred

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May 13, 2009
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IMO, Harbinger is a much better villain than Saren. You fight with his directly controlled collectors regularly. Plus, he is much more powerful and dangerous than Saren ever was.
 

Renegade-pizza

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May I remind everyone Saren was a sidekick!!! Who was the all powerful leader/ship/mind controller/ fleet destroying badass? Not the guy with the loudest pistol in the universe.
 

Fappy

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Renegade-pizza said:
May I remind everyone Saren was a sidekick!!! Who was the all powerful leader/ship/mind controller/ fleet destroying badass? Not the guy with the loudest pistol in the universe.
His pistol was quite loud now that you mention it. >.>
 

Blunderboy

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poiumty said:
Pffft. Saren is small fry next to Jon Irenicus.
Good call.
I loved Saren, but that bastard Irenicus was better.

"Life... is strength. This is not to be contested; it seems logical enough. You live; you affect your world. But is it what you want? You are... different inside. This woman lives and has strength of a sort. She lost her parents to plague, her husband to war, but she persevered. Her farm has prospered, her name is respected and her children are fed and safe. She lived as she thought she should. And now she is dead. Her land will be divided, her children will move on, and she will be forgotten. She lived a good life, but she had no power; she was a slave to death. I wonder if you are destined to be forgotten. Will your life fade in the shadow of greater beings?"

OT - While I think Saren did help make Mass Effect great, he only really works as a villain in the first game. Once you know the big reveal and the bad guys are fully identified, there is little cause for such moral ambiguity.
 

Tomeran

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This reply will have some ME1 and ME2 spoilers.

I agree to the degree that Saren was a good villain, and that he contributed much to make the ME1 storyline so darned appealing.

But he was not the main villain, and neither is the Illusive man. That role was intended for, of course, the reapers, and as fair as villains go, they're probably among the most badass I've ever seen in a video game.


A race of sentient machines, the size of massive dreadnaught-class warships, that returns on relativly regular intervals(every 50.000 years or so) in galactic history to wipe out all biological life more complex then a chimp, and having done so for at least 37 million years(that's the earliest codex referance I could find of a planet with signs of reaper-bombardment), which means they've eradicated most living things in the galaxy at least 740 times. I cant find any other villain-concept in any games history, at least that I've played, that can even remotely compete with that.

Not only do these cycles stand as an explenation as to why any races havent gone hyper-hyper-hyper technologicly advanced(really, that's one of the best things with the whole deal), but it delivers an act of absolute hopelessness before ME3. And that is to me one of the main contributing reasons why I look forward to ME3 so much: Bioware has delivered a villain that by all reason and logic cant be beaten. The hologram on Ilos may have said "Reapers are not invinsible, if Sovereign faced the united fleets of the galaxys races he'd be buggered", but a fleet of them? Thousands of Sovereigns?(or slightly smaller and weaker versions of said ship, since it stands to reason Sov. as a vanguard was fairly badass for a reaper)

It delivers an exciting question that is way better then having Saren or the Illusive man or any humanoid as a main villain:

How the fuck can Shepard win this?

Finding that out will be very interesting. At least I hope so.

I dont think the Ilusive man is as good a villain as Saren, but he's by no means a bad one. They both pale in comparison to the reapers though, as they are perhaps the most mysterious villains of all. We know what they plan to do, somewhat(same thing they've done for millions of years), we know they are really really really tough opponents and we know they can play with peoples heads.

That's about it. We dont know why they do it, we dont know how old they are, we dont know where they're from, we dont even know if these are the only reapers. There are a ton of questions unanswered by these behemoth villains, and just because they dont have human faces doesnt make them poor villains.

I guess I dont feel the same need to have a human/humanoid face to everything. To me not being able to identify myself with the villain just makes them more mysterious. Who the hell are these guys? What can they do? What are they after?
I just cant say that a race of villains that are a mix between skynet and cthulhu are anything but badass.



Of course, the easiest way Bioware could sink all of my fanboyish expecations and excitements is if Shepard just gathers a fleet of a few thousand allied ships and defeat the reaper fleet in orbit, and that's it, game over, grats. But that would violate all manner of sense and reason behind building such a formidable enemy, and I have faith that something special will be required to achieve victory.
 

maninahat

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This is the exact opposite to how I feel: Saren was such a boring, non-entity of a villain that left no impression whatsoever. In fact, that pretty much describes my gaming experience of ME: bland, uninspired and unmemorable, and that is why I haven't continued with the ME series. My biggest complaint? Don't fill the game world with featureless grey corridors and empty rooms. This isn't Wolfenstein.
 

Toasty Virus

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Dec 2, 2009
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While Saren didn't get a lot of screen time, he was a constant threat. In ME2, I found it very easy to forget all about the collectors and the reapers while I was mowing down Blue Sun mooks with Garrus. But in ME1, More or less everything you did was helping you track Saren down.

There is also the fact that again, while he didn't have a lot of screen time, you got a lot of background about him from the various characters giving their stories about him, and their opinions on him.

I dunno, He was a pretty great Villain, and TIM in ME3 looks to me like he's shaping up to be something similar.