Original storytelling in Mass Effect and gaming in general (SPOILERS INSIDE)

[cherimoya]

from: http://www.mikebrotherton.com/?p=1024

"All the trops of science fiction, from rocket ships to teleporters, from invisibility to time travel, were totally original ideas for someone at some point."

i dont want to get this thread too lost in the "is there original thought?" forest, but the only thing that sentence makes me think of is "levels of metaphor". ummm. say its 1865 and you're jules verne, watching trains roar past - is it really such a leap of originality to imagine the spaceship in "from the earth to the moon"? the spaceship he writes about is shaped like a bullet and uses a cannon mechanism to launch it to the moon. its one level of metaphor away from the commonplace concepts of mechanized conveyances and cannon and mortar sciences of the time.

now i want to be careful that i dont sound like i'm in any way diminishing verne or anyone else. the jump to the moon *was* creative and has obviously struck a chord in the imagination of generations since, but it cant be called original. the number of people over the millennia who looked up at a bird in flight and imagined ways to take flight too dont diminish the achievements of the wright brothers in any way. etc. etc.

getting back to the narrative problems that we tend to notice in games, i wonder if a lot of the half-assed or just generally uneven attempts at storytelling we see in games has anything to do with how many people work on games? i dont remember narrative problems with old space quest games or the old legend and infocom IF games.

maybe its just my own bias?... but i cant imagine a novel written by 80 mathematicians in 14 hour shifts in an office would have much chance of turning out well, let alone coherent.

 

[cherimoya]

re: your royal house.

HA! when i was a boy i played romance of the three kingdoms on the NES + PC and i made exhaustive notes about each turn's progression, which generals did what to whom, their fueds, friendships, oaths and etc. the type of imaginary narrative you mention is why i still have M2TW on my HD today. (paradox interactive's knights of honor creates the same sort of gameplay and imaginary head-space too.)

(its why i always had design gripes while playing the civilization games. a game about the idea of human civilization where all the individual humans and our stories have been abstracted out).

 

[More Fun To Compute]

maybe its just my own bias?... but i cant imagine a novel written by 80 mathematicians in 14 hour shifts in an office would have much chance of turning out well, let alone coherent.

You think that mathematicians can't write? If only they could invent some sort of Venn diagram to disprove you but sadly since original thinking is not possible they will be stumped if there isn't a proof in the google search results.

Kidding aside. Bioware did have a lead writer on Mass Effect who had a vision for the game so it wasn't written by committee. I think that a lot of acclaimed games have someone with a strong vision working on the story. How well they do or how original they are is something else.

What I think of as more of a problem is that the story is often at odds with other parts of the game and games often have different mechanics that don't work well together. I think that games would be better if more games had directors who understood as much as possible about every element and put designers and writers on the same page. Either that or more games made by small teams or a even single person.

 

[scotth266]

I have several people at my dorm convinced that Eragon ripped off Star Wars.
Personally, I could care less how similar the plots are: they still feel different to me, and that's what matters.

Props up to Mass Effect. It is indeed how our narratives should work these days. I've heard people rip on it for being unoriginal, but the plot kept me ingrained throughout the experience. There need to be more plots with the Mass Effect structure: the number of choices that can change the entire dynamic, such as the sacrifice choices, should be increased significantly.

Is this hard? Of course. But it will make people enjoy the game more.

 

[cherimoya]

its ok if eragon did, star wars "ripped off" kurosawa's "the hidden fortress".

(lucas thought he might have to buy the rights to the film while he was writing star wars because he was using so much of it in his script.)

as for the choices in mass effect, one of my other gripes with it is that like most bioware games, the dialogue choices are usually so very obvious: "good answer, neutral answer, evil answer." i'd like future games to be a bit harder to keep my alignment in.

Spoiler

fallout 3's tenpenny tower ghoul quest for example...

 

[Altorin]

its ok if eragon did, star wars "ripped off" kurosawa's "the hidden fortress".

(lucas thought he might have to buy the rights to the film while he was writing star wars because he was using so much of it in his script.)

as for the choices in mass effect, one of my other gripes with it is that like most bioware games, the dialogue choices are usually so very obvious: "good answer, neutral answer, evil answer." i'd like future games to be a bit harder to keep my alignment in.

Spoiler

fallout 3's tenpenny tower ghoul quest for example...

Most gamers were tricked by that Ghoul quest.. It was a mean trick..

But honestly..

I wouldn't mind seeing the trick used again, but they gotta be careful. If ALL conversations had tricks like that it would lose its charm pretty quick I think.

 

[cherimoya]

i thought it was phenomenal, simply because it got a rise out of me. emotionally, i mean. when i found out, i went right back to the tower and...

Spoiler

killed each and every ghoul in the place, taking perverse (and unusual for a gaming session) satisfaction in killing roy specifically.

.

i'm not a powergamer, and i'm not fussy about my RPG builds or alignments, so it didn't annoy me in those ways. i wasn't ticked off that i had lost something or messed anything up. i just thought it was phenomenal for a game to take some of the best intentions of their players for a loop like that.

i think it made everyone think a little harder about their dialogue choices and quest responses for the rest of the game, too. which is a good thing. i think RPGs often allow players to remain in too cozy a comfort zone. take some of the quests and resolutions in the witcher. no player got out of that game with a sterling, unshaken morality and i suspect that made a lot of players think more about their choices and and the morality of that game world. yaknow?

i agree that you cant abuse / overuse a device like that, tho. too much and too many players feel like they are being abused by having too much information withheld from them while making decisions.

Spoiler

but on replay, i have to say that roy's actions were pretty clear and straight forward, another reason i think the quest worked. to roy's credit, (or lack of) he ends up doing *exactly* what he threatens to do as he storms off from the front gate's intercom right after you "meet" him.

i mean how much did any of us pay attention to the moral repercussions of the original neverwinter nights 2 main quest? (before MoTB came out with its soul-vampire stuff...)

 

[n01d34]

According to the Russian formalists one of the objectives of art is to make us re-see what we've already seen. For example you see rocks in everyday life so you ignore them but when you see a rock in a painting you are able to see it in a different way and they become interesting again. Then time passes and pictures of rocks become boring until someone does an abstract expressionist version of a rock and blam you get to see it all over again.

So for the case of storytelling, nearly all stories are just rehashes of old ones but that's fine. The point of the new story is to tell the tale in a different way so that it can resonate with you again.

To make the rocks rock again so to speak.

 

[teh_gunslinger]

its ok if eragon did, star wars "ripped off" kurosawa's "the hidden fortress".

(lucas thought he might have to buy the rights to the film while he was writing star wars because he was using so much of it in his script.)

as for the choices in mass effect, one of my other gripes with it is that like most bioware games, the dialogue choices are usually so very obvious: "good answer, neutral answer, evil answer." i'd like future games to be a bit harder to keep my alignment in.

Spoiler

fallout 3's tenpenny tower ghoul quest for example...

About the Eragon/Star Wars/etc.: I think that illustrates the point pretty good. Lucas told a lot of old stories again in Star Wars, but he did it in a new way and cast new light on it. Eragon on the other hand, in my mind, brought nothing to the table.
I thought ME did a good job of telling an old story in a new setting and in highlighting some issues and prejudices. So credit on that. And who cares if I didn't feel the game mechanics were good? I was told a good story.

Not to take it too much off topic, but I always thought that Pratchett is at his best when he muses over narrative imperative and the power of stories to the human mind.

 

[Skalman]

I can see the similarities between the two just having finished the series myself but I think that we have yet to see all of the variations between the two as the game series is not complete yet

This I completely agree with. Especially I am interested in the Reapers motives.

And I'm in no way bitching about ME. It just got me thinking and created the critical mass for actually writing a post about it.

I actually don't want them to reveal the reapers true motives.
I liked the idea of something "beyond our comprehension" I mean we humans think we could possibly understand everything in the galaxy? Comon, don't be silly.
Since they are machines, they'd probably think in a very different way than we do, which is what I liked about it.
I'd hate it if Bioware went and ruined it just because they feel obligated to "give an explanation".

We're humans, our understanding of reality only goes so far.

 

[teh_gunslinger]

I can see the similarities between the two just having finished the series myself but I think that we have yet to see all of the variations between the two as the game series is not complete yet

This I completely agree with. Especially I am interested in the Reapers motives.

And I'm in no way bitching about ME. It just got me thinking and created the critical mass for actually writing a post about it.

I actually don't want them to reveal the reapers true motives.
I liked the idea of something "beyond our comprehension" I mean we humans think we could possibly understand everything in the galaxy? Comon, don't be silly.
Since they are machines, they'd probably think in a very different way than we do, which is what I liked about it.
I'd hate it if Bioware went and ruined it just because they feel obligated to "give an explanation".

We're humans, our understanding of reality only goes so far.

You are right in many ways. About human understanding. Also from a story perspective. An unknowabe enemy is scary as hell.
But I am a human so I'm as you just stated curious as hell and I wanna know it all. Now, I'm not saying they should reveal. That's up to them, really. But I'm very curious and I would like to know. Human and all that.

 

[Vlane]

Don't be fooled into thinking any ideas are original. Whatever it is, it's been done before.

Usually by The Simpsons (South Park reference).

 

[More Fun To Compute]

And who cares if I didn't feel the game mechanics were good? I was told a good story.

It matters to me. For people to give up on game design for me is like giving up eating. A lot of people around here seem to love their narratives but story telling is secondary path into the human skull after play.

Read the chapter on Why we play games in The Art of Computer Game Design by Chris Crawford.

Games are thus the most ancient and time-honored vehicle for education. They are the original educational technology, the natural one, having received the seal of approval of natural selection. We don't see mother lions lecturing cubs at the chalkboard; we don't see senior lions writing their memoirs for posterity. In light of this, the question, "Can games have educational value?" becomes absurd. It is not games but schools that are the newfangled notion, the untested fad, the violator of tradition. Gameplaying is a vital educational function for any creature capable of learning.

 

[Skalman]

I can see the similarities between the two just having finished the series myself but I think that we have yet to see all of the variations between the two as the game series is not complete yet

This I completely agree with. Especially I am interested in the Reapers motives.

And I'm in no way bitching about ME. It just got me thinking and created the critical mass for actually writing a post about it.

I actually don't want them to reveal the reapers true motives.
I liked the idea of something "beyond our comprehension" I mean we humans think we could possibly understand everything in the galaxy? Comon, don't be silly.
Since they are machines, they'd probably think in a very different way than we do, which is what I liked about it.
I'd hate it if Bioware went and ruined it just because they feel obligated to "give an explanation".

We're humans, our understanding of reality only goes so far.

You are right in many ways. About human understanding. Also from a story perspective. An unknowabe enemy is scary as hell.
But I am a human so I'm as you just stated curious as hell and I wanna know it all. Now, I'm not saying they should reveal. That's up to them, really. But I'm very curious and I would like to know. Human and all that.

Well I'm not really that curious,(well maybe a little) but I've kinda accepted the fact that the reapers are driven by a motive so complex and alien that our human psyche cannot even begin to fathom it.
Which kinda makes them, as you put it, "scary as hell".

I do hope however that we can convince the Geth to join the organic races. Wouldn't that be awesome?
As far as I'm concerned, they're as "human" as we are. Being sentient and all that.
Wouldn't Geth allies be supremely kickass?
Geth squad member?

Ohh, now I got myself exited.

Damn you Bioware! We want the sequel and we want it NOW!

 

[teh_gunslinger]

And who cares if I didn't feel the game mechanics were good? I was told a good story.

It matters to me. For people to give up on game design for me is like giving up eating. A lot of people around here seem to love their narratives but story telling is secondary path into the human skull after play.

Read the chapter on Why we play games in The Art of Computer Game Design by Chris Crawford.

Games are thus the most ancient and time-honored vehicle for education. They are the original educational technology, the natural one, having received the seal of approval of natural selection. We don't see mother lions lecturing cubs at the chalkboard; we don't see senior lions writing their memoirs for posterity. In light of this, the question, "Can games have educational value?" becomes absurd. It is not games but schools that are the newfangled notion, the untested fad, the violator of tradition. Gameplaying is a vital educational function for any creature capable of learning.

Well, I did specifically only talk about myself. I said "[...]who cares if I [...]" I know that most people find gameplay to be the most important part, and to some degree I agree. However, if I were forced to decide I would rather be told a good story and then have to struggle with some at times uninspired controls (or something else).
I don't disagree that games have an educational purpose, but so do stories. Much more so as I will argue.

And we, as humans, are if not anything else, creatures that need stories to make the world make sense. Hence we make religions and the Zodiac signs and what not to imbue purpose into this crazy place. We are storytelling apes. We tell stories to pass on the experiences and lessons the our children. And that I value higher that an, in the case of ME, atrocious combat system. People can go on about game play. but in the end I think it plays second fiddle to the story. If we talk about paths into peoples skulls story telling has been around for a while.

And no, we don't see lions writing their memoirs. But we also don't see them inventing a car Or the train. Or the bow. They have no way on passing on memories to the next generation. No external memory be it stories, scrolls, books or the internet. So while playing and education is connected it can only take us so far. Without stories we would never have moved past the lions. And Chris Crawford may call schools new, but stories have been around since the dawn of thinking.

*giant snip*

Wouldn't Geth allies be supremely kickass?
Geth squad member?

Ohh, now I got myself exited.

Damn you Bioware! We want the sequel and we want it NOW!

A geth squad member would be cool, if they manage to make it without reminding me too much of HK-47. That would be bad, sa the geth would pale in comparison.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

Well, I did specifically only talk about myself. I said "[...]who cares if I [...]" I know that most people find gameplay to be the most important part, and to some degree I agree. However, if I were forced to decide I would rather be told a good story and then have to struggle with some at times uninspired controls (or something else).
I don't disagree that games have an educational purpose, but so do stories. Much more so as I will argue.

And we, as humans, are if not anything else, creatures that need stories to make the world make sense. Hence we make religions and the Zodiac signs and what not to imbue purpose into this crazy place. We are storytelling apes. We tell stories to pass on the experiences and lessons the our children. And that I value higher that an, in the case of ME, atrocious combat system. People can go on about game play. but in the end I think it plays second fiddle to the story. If we talk about paths into peoples skulls story telling has been around for a while.

And no, we don't see lions writing their memoirs. But we also don't see them inventing a car Or the train. Or the bow. They have no way on passing on memories to the next generation. No external memory be it stories, scrolls, books or the internet. So while playing and education is connected it can only take us so far. Without stories we would never have moved past the lions. And Chris Crawford may call schools new, but stories have been around since the dawn of thinking.

My answer to your "who cares" question is that I do and think that others should as well.

Saying that stories are better than games because some games are bad or other people can't enjoy some games is not a strong argument for me. Chris Crawford's argument is that game play not only stretches back to the dawn of modern humans but goes before us in evolutionary terms to animals with certain levels of intelligence and learning. Game playing isn't some negligible or childish part of what it means to be human when compared to oral history.

You don't invent a good bow by telling someone a story about what it would be like to have a good bow then watch them tell a story to a tree god which creates the best bow for them. You invent a bow by playing with tools and making a competitive game out seeing which bow is best. A similar game is made about teaching children how to use the bow. Humans are much better at playing games than Lions. Especially Tetris time attack. Lions really suck at that.

 

[PedroSteckecilo]

I never though that Mass Effect was supposed to be "wildly original" but rather an homage to the style of science fiction that was so popular in the 70's and 80's, complete with alien sex and synthesized music. The entire thing is very eighties, so I'm not suprised that it comes across as a little derivative. Sort of like how Jade Empire was a good, loving homage to kung fu stories, Chinese mythology and the under utilized setting of Ancient China.

 

[Fairy Lorebach]

This isn't the first time BioWare's been accused of plagiarism. See the following scholarly treatise: Baldur's Gate Is a Ripoff of the Original Star Wars Trilogy [http://www.caltrops.com/article0007.php].

 

[teh_gunslinger]

My answer to your "who cares" question is that I do and think that others should as well.

Saying that stories are better than games because some games are bad or other people can't enjoy some games is not a strong argument for me. Chris Crawford's argument is that game play not only stretches back to the dawn of modern humans but goes before us in evolutionary terms to animals with certain levels of intelligence and learning. Game playing isn't some negligible or childish part of what it means to be human when compared to oral history.

You don't invent a good bow by telling someone a story about what it would be like to have a good bow then watch them tell a story to a tree god which creates the best bow for them. You invent a bow by playing with tools and making a competitive game out seeing which bow is best. A similar game is made about teaching children how to use the bow. Humans are much better at playing games than Lions. Especially Tetris time attack. Lions really suck at that.

I apologize if I come across dismissing the importance of games and playing. That was in no way my intention. Games and play are indeed incredibly important, both in "nature" and for us humans (I know we are part of nature). I just wanted to say that in my mind stories too are of great importance. This time not so much for animals but solely for us humans. We wouldn't have gotten far without either. I really am not trying to pick a fight or dismiss your arguments. I'm just interested in painting as broad a picture as possible.
And I'm not advocating that game play should be abandoned in favour of story. Not at all. I may prefer story over game play, but there are other people than me out there and I think some sort of balance would be nice. Some games will have strong reliance on game play and technical aspects while some will rely on story. And some will be in between. Can we agree on that?

This isn't the first time BioWare's been accused of plagiarism. See the following scholarly treatise: Baldur's Gate Is a Ripoff of the Original Star Wars Trilogy [http://www.caltrops.com/article0007.php].

I don't know if that was aimed at my original post, but if it was I would like to state again: I don't accuse BioWare of plagiarizing anything. I just wanted to talk about storytelling and the concept of originality. And as we discussed, the original SW trilogy can in turn be accused of being a ripoff. And so it goes.

 

[Alucadrian]

i'll say that its not the idea that matters, but how you express it.

This answer contains my response as well, but I challenge the first half of it as incomplete and untrue. I believe that the idea, its inherent and perceived quality, and its manner of expression are all equally of great importance.

The difference, as has been said already, is in that regardless of novel similarities, the idea is being presented in a completely new form by the fact that it is now interactive, allowing an understanding of the material and backstory from a perspective that was previously impossible. The quality of the idea is what supports this transition and makes it function; otherwise it would be ignored, ridiculed, and easily forgotten (for examples of the many failed attempts at these sorts of media transitions, just look at any of the long string of utterly forgettable movie-licensed video games).

All of these parts together are required for the transition to have any success. Optimally, the goal should be the creation of a new product that draws new or renewed attention to its counterpart, creating new success for them both. The synergy between the Harry Potter books and movies is an example of this, as is the similar synergy (more interesting to me for the decades in between that fell away as nothing) between the newest I Am Legend and the original novella by Richard Matheson more than half a century ago.

Novel to film, film to game, novel to game, etc. ...Whatever the transition may be, people will always be interested in finding a new way to view an idea of quality. I don't think the game suffers a bit for having its roots stem from another source; if anything, I believe it strengthens both by the connection, as fueled by the quality.