Over seventy dead in vehicular attack in Nice, France

[Bobular]

People doing bad stuff...I don't like the ambivalent numbness that comes with this type of news. Did anyone give a shit about this attack when it occurred?

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/07/02/middleeast/baghdad-car-bombs/

I noticed hardly anybody mentioned it anywhere at the time. I guess not important enough, right? Why? The numbers are higher, you like numbers, don't you? Well they're higher there.

The point isn't the numbers, the point is that this is closer. Its not unusual nor wrong to worry about the attack across the border on people more like yourself then to worry about an attack on people in a far off country that I will probably never be anywhere near.

Yes we should still worry, and if possible our governments should do something about both but focusing on problems closer to home is nothing strange.

 

[Parasondox]

People doing bad stuff...I don't like the ambivalent numbness that comes with this type of news. Did anyone give a shit about this attack when it occurred?

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/07/02/middleeast/baghdad-car-bombs/

I noticed hardly anybody mentioned it anywhere at the time. I guess not important enough, right? Why? The numbers are higher, you like numbers, don't you? Well they're higher there.

Look at Yemen. Whats happening in Yemen you may ask?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/yemen/12176705/Saudi-Arabia-is-bombing-in-Yemen-to-bring-peace-and-stability.html

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/17/saudi-arabia-scale-back-yemen-attacks-sanaa-airstrikes-toll-houthi-market-rises

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/10/saudi-arabia-row-ban-ki-moon-new-low-un-relationship

The news only shows what it needs in order to strike it's own agenda and ratings. Show the bad, hides the worse.

Also the worse is done by our own weapons through heightened sales the last year...god forbid the people know what fucked up relations we have with Saudi, they may start doubting their nationalist pride. We can't allow that now, can we?

Maybe some just don't want to see and admit to the real nasty behind the scene, under the table deals our government gets up too and the harm and death it creates. Selling arms to allies AND the enemy with little worry about how those weapons will be used.

Sweep that under the already lumpy carpet, dear sir.

 

[Parasondox]

People doing bad stuff...I don't like the ambivalent numbness that comes with this type of news. Did anyone give a shit about this attack when it occurred?

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/07/02/middleeast/baghdad-car-bombs/

I noticed hardly anybody mentioned it anywhere at the time. I guess not important enough, right? Why? The numbers are higher, you like numbers, don't you? Well they're higher there.

The news only shows what it needs in order to strike it's own agenda and ratings. Show the bad, hides the worse.

Really? Both the Yemen stuff and the Baghdad attack were frontline stuff here and I follow like seven news sources. There's no hiding going on.

As for caring, well you'll probably find that everyone in the world cares a little more about the respective region where they live in. Not that there isn't a problem with news agency oligopolies, mind you.

I know people care. We should care about it all because one death at the hand of man, is one too many no matter the location. My main point was with the news and the angle they play on all sides. Often lies, some times misinformation, sensationalizing a story, heating up emotions, adding fuel to the fire, 1 sided stories trying to create a "us versus them", "heroes and villains", type stories.

And for what? Ratings? Money? Power?

 

[Cowabungaa]

I know people care. We should care about it all because one death at the hand of man, is one too many no matter the location. My main point was with the news and the angle they play on all sides. Often lies, some times misinformation, sensationalizing a story, heating up emotions, adding fuel to the fire, 1 sided stories trying to create a "us versus them", "heroes and villains", type stories.

And for what? Ratings? Money? Power?

Well that's an issue with the commercialization of news. It has become a commodity instead of the public service it should be. Hence why I use so many news sources and I try to stick with public ones.

When people try to discuss these things the conversation is invariably sandbagged with accusations of racism (islam isn't even a race) or islamophobia, as if it is irrational to have fear for a religious beliefs that advocate for the slaughter of non-believers

Then again, you can find passages calling for violence in pretty much every Abrahamic religion's religious texts so cherry picking those is pretty pointless. You don't have that irrational fear of Christianity, do you?

 

[ErrrorWayz]

To my mind, religion is a personal choice and should not be allowed to affect or influence the public sphere in anyway.

I found this [http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/06/islam-politics-exceptional/485801/] to be a really interesting article on why that's possibly problematic for Islam as such in Western countries.

It's a great link and really revealing as to why Islam may have a problem integrating in a secular society, thanks.

I would posit that if Islam is going to move to a country with another tradition, Judaeo-Christian, secular, or otherwise, then the fact that it struggles to integrate doesn't release it from a duty to integrate.

On a personal level, I also find the suggestion that people are still upset about something that happened in the 7th Century equal parts ridiculous and terrifying but I try to understand that is possibly (probably?) rooted in my own complete distaste for religion.

I guess for me, the bottom line is that if you move to secular country then expect to be secular, at least in public. If I moved to an Islamic country I honestly believe would happily adopt what ever was deemed culturally suitable in terms of dress and behaviour.

 

[Parasondox]

I'm actually worried about some of the people I used to know in regards to terrorism. The collage I went to had over 50% of its student population being Muslims and this was just after we invaded Afghanistan, just before/during the Iraq war so we would quite often discuss things to do with Islam in classes. I remember one day the topic was turned from computer architecture to sharia law, and the Muslims in the class said that they don't understand why Briton doesn't just impose sharia law as most people in Briton are Muslim anyway.

They seemed to think that because the area they grew up in was entirely Muslim and the schools they attended were mostly Muslim that they were the majority and were being ruled by a minority of none Muslims.

That is the main problem causing these home grown terrorists, they are staying in their own little bubble rather that integrating with the rest of the country. I now work with a few Muslims and they seem to be very well integrated into society whilst still keeping their culture and religion and I think this is down to them interacting with the general public more and generally being from an older generation.

What country do you live in?

Many imam's advocate to their followers to not integrate. You have the danish documentary "mosques behind the veil" where every mosque in the danish capital would advocate to two undercover journalists pretending to be recent immigrants to not integrate. Meanwhile when they know camera's are rolling they say that they advocate integration.

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=nl&sl=da&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fnyheder.tv2.dk%2Fsamfund%2F2016-02-28-tv-2-afsloerer-dansk-imam-underviser-muslimer-om-stening-og-pisk

When people try to discuss these things the conversation is invariably sandbagged with accusations of racism (islam isn't even a race) or islamophobia, as if it is irrational to have fear for a religious beliefs that advocate for the slaughter of non-believers:

I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them

and that also in practice produces people willing to act in accordance with these prescriptions.[footnote]Now, I do not believe that majority of muslims would go out and kill as many non-believers as possible. Many know very little about what it says in the quran. [/footnote]

The more I learn about islam and the life of Muhammed, the more you can see the similarities about the warlord life that he lived and the way that his most ardent followers act.

Should I ask the same question about where you are from too?

You see one documentary in one part of the world and you assume all Imams are like that. As someone who lives in east London, those who do follow Islam ALSO take part within the community where there are still people of other faiths. All they pretty much preach is love and respect. Yes, there are bad, rotten apples in the group, just like in all groups, but the majority does not support isolation and encourage togetherness. I speak to, interact with and grow close to those who are muslim as they are neighbours and friends.

So before some start playing the "I saw this on TV and they said..." blah blah. How about speak to one or two of them and get to know them a bit more. Every religion has a dark path and those who follow it today knows this and looking to make a change. It's sad that a small few wish to continue with that.

Lastly, ISIS are not and in no way represent Islam. If they did, they wouldn't bomb mosque during Friday pray and THE HOLY CITY!!! That's like a Christian group going, "Lets case hell in Bethlehem."

 

[Parasondox]

I know people care. We should care about it all because one death at the hand of man, is one too many no matter the location. My main point was with the news and the angle they play on all sides. Often lies, some times misinformation, sensationalizing a story, heating up emotions, adding fuel to the fire, 1 sided stories trying to create a "us versus them", "heroes and villains", type stories.

And for what? Ratings? Money? Power?

Well that's an issue with the commercialization of news. It has become a commodity instead of the public service it should be. Hence why I use so many news sources and I try to stick with public ones.

And that's the worrying part. Commercialise/Private news is the major on the world scale, I assume.

 

[Bobular]

I'm actually worried about some of the people I used to know in regards to terrorism. The collage I went to had over 50% of its student population being Muslims and this was just after we invaded Afghanistan, just before/during the Iraq war so we would quite often discuss things to do with Islam in classes. I remember one day the topic was turned from computer architecture to sharia law, and the Muslims in the class said that they don't understand why Briton doesn't just impose sharia law as most people in Briton are Muslim anyway.

They seemed to think that because the area they grew up in was entirely Muslim and the schools they attended were mostly Muslim that they were the majority and were being ruled by a minority of none Muslims.

That is the main problem causing these home grown terrorists, they are staying in their own little bubble rather that integrating with the rest of the country. I now work with a few Muslims and they seem to be very well integrated into society whilst still keeping their culture and religion and I think this is down to them interacting with the general public more and generally being from an older generation.

What country do you live in?

Many imam's advocate to their followers to not integrate. You have the danish documentary "mosques behind the veil" where every mosque in the danish capital would advocate to two undercover journalists pretending to be recent immigrants to not integrate. Meanwhile when they know camera's are rolling they say that they advocate integration.

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=nl&sl=da&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fnyheder.tv2.dk%2Fsamfund%2F2016-02-28-tv-2-afsloerer-dansk-imam-underviser-muslimer-om-stening-og-pisk

When people try to discuss these things the conversation is invariably sandbagged with accusations of racism (islam isn't even a race) or islamophobia, as if it is irrational to have fear for a religious beliefs that advocate for the slaughter of non-believers:

I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them

and that also in practice produces people willing to act in accordance with these prescriptions.[footnote]Now, I do not believe that majority of muslims would go out and kill as many non-believers as possible. Many know very little about what it says in the quran. [/footnote]

The more I learn about islam and the life of Muhammed, the more you can see the similarities about the warlord life that he lived and the way that his most ardent followers act.

I live in the north of England.

The problem isn't a Muslim problem, its just that is what is most prevalent, the problem I believe is too much immigration at once. Immigration isn't a bad thing if its at a controlled level, in that way immigrants can come here, bring their culture with them (I can't imagine England without curry houses or kebab shops or Chinese restaurants or Irish pubs or American McDonalds) but also adapt to the new country they're in. With the huge amount of unregulated immigration we have we get the case of whole areas becoming 'the Muslim area' or 'the Polish area' or whatever. These places become small islands of their old country and culture so they don't interact with the natives and become more isolated.

That's why I think that most older immigrants are more integrated, because they grew up around the natives and had to integrate.

 

[Parasondox]

People doing bad stuff...I don't like the ambivalent numbness that comes with this type of news. Did anyone give a shit about this attack when it occurred?

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/07/02/middleeast/baghdad-car-bombs/

I noticed hardly anybody mentioned it anywhere at the time. I guess not important enough, right? Why? The numbers are higher, you like numbers, don't you? Well they're higher there.

Wait, you're surprised that a country that's in a state of civil war that casualties there get less attention in the news?

And if you think it's important and you noticed it, why didn't you share it? Why were you only waiting to see if others would share it?

Be the change you want to see.

You assumed they haven't shared it already? The Escapist isn't the only site on the web.

 

[ErrrorWayz]

Huge snip to save space!

Um - sorry to butt in but I could help but notice your "pretty much all [East London Imams] preach love and respect" line, which I feel to some extent actually mirrors the danger of generalising from a single documentary.

There are clearly some very difficult views to reconcile with British liberalism at the heart of Islam, to suggest otherwise would be dangerous I feel:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law

I note that these polls were conducted by Channel 4 and reported the Guardian both extremely liberal sources politically, which would reflexively report from "a multiculturalism is a positive" angle (an angle I would by and large support myself).

 

[Cowabungaa]

With the huge amount of unregulated immigration we have we get

Except that you don't get that. At all. For example, in UK during the past 8-ish years the yearly asylum application percentage (yes that's not the entirety of the immigration rate, hence why it's just an example) per 1000 inhabitants always hovered around half a percentage point. That's way below other Western European nations.

To call it unregulated is silly and untrue as well. I'm not up to snuff on the legal details, but I do know that it's not easy to move to the UK. There's plenty of regulation.

 

[Neurotic Void Melody]

Wait, you're surprised that a country that's in a state of civil war that casualties there get less attention in the news?

And if you think it's important and you noticed it, why didn't you share it? Why were you only waiting to see if others would share it?

Be the change you want to see.

Oh I did, thanks for asking. Not here though, this isn't a place that inspires confidence in others. The rationalisations are just tiring. And it isnt a place I consider the hub of breaking news. You may be surprised to learn this site isn't a priority for my imposing of negative news. It would just get the first bit of your reply there anyway.

The point isn't the numbers, the point is that this is closer. Its not unusual nor wrong to worry about the attack across the border on people more like yourself then to worry about an attack on people in a far off country that I will probably never be anywhere near.

Yes we should still worry, and if possible our governments should do something about both but focusing on problems closer to home is nothing strange.

And any pretense at caring for these human lives are thrown away to admit the fear for one's own safety. Righty ho! Just as suspected. I understand, make no mistake. Or at least I used to. But the hypocrisy to sustain a particular narrative is quite sickening to endure these days.

Maybe some just don't want to see and admit to the real nasty behind the scene, under the table deals our government gets up too and the harm and death it creates. Selling arms to allies AND the enemy with little worry about how those weapons will be used.

Sweep that under the already lumpy carpet, dear sir.

It is the British way! People will do all kinds of mental gymnastics to justify their comforting lullabies that soothe them into moral superiority. It would almost be funny if it weren't so downright bloody lethal.

 

[Parasondox]

Snip and going legit

Shall I flip this?

Sources on the 50% thing please.

Didn't 70% of people in the US thought Iraq had something to do with 9/11?

Aren't you making assumptions too?

49 minute will take a while. Let's go.

 

[Parasondox]

Huge snip to save space!

Um - sorry to butt in but I could help but notice your "pretty much all [East London Imams] preach love and respect" line, which I feel to some extent actually mirrors the danger of generalising from a single documentary.

There are clearly some very difficult views to reconcile with British liberalism at the heart of Islam, to suggest otherwise would be dangerous I feel:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law

I note that these polls were conducted by Channel 4 and reported the Guardian both extremely liberal sources politically, which would reflexively report from "a multiculturalism is a positive" angle (an angle I would by and large support myself).

Gladly I also mentioned a few rotten apples as in, some preach hate and fear. Things I extremely dislike.

Honestly, (this isn't a response to you) is it crazy to ask for those who play on fear and hate to their heads out of their asses and be more loving. I sound like my younger naive self again. Just done with inter wars.

 

[Dizchu]

RIP to those lost in this senseless tragedy.

Between the impending Trump presidency, growing xenophobia and radicalisation and the mess that was Brexit, 2016 is looking to be quite a shitty year. Doesn't help that all of those things are related either.

 

[Cowabungaa]

Three years back, about 50% of muslims internationally supported the actions of al quada, according to PEW research. We're not really talking about small minority of support here.

Yeah, no. It's a bit more complicated than that. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_attitudes_towards_terrorism] I'll be the first to admit that there's big problems with mutual interaction between Islamic culture and Western liberal culture. But being sloppy with information like your average modern demagogue is, in the end, helping no-one.