Oversexualized but well written characters

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sumanoskae

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Lilani said:
sumanoskae said:
IMO, if the way a character looks destroys your ability to take them seriously, assuming that it doesn't directly contradict their character, that's a problem YOU have, not the game.

Especially when we're talking about something as superficial as the fact that they're attractive.

I didn't play Mass Effect 2 and think "Oh, Samera is a tragic and intriguing figure, but I just can't feel sympathetic for a character with jugs like that"

If you ask me, THAT'S superficial.

Even if a character is directly sexualized (Take Miranda, again from ME) it doesn't mean there's nothing underneath. The problem we face with the portrayal of women in the arts is not that they're simply "Too sexy", the problem is that, too often, that's ALL they are.

Characters with average designs aren't any better than ones with attractive designs.

The idea that a characters appearance can dictate their complexity is no less superficial than the idea that their appearance is all that matters.
I think when people make the "Good character is too sexualized" argument, it's because there's often little context for it. Like, why does Samara dress like that? She has children so she's not celibate, but at the same time she is clearly more dedicated to her job as a justicar than to her relationships (thus giving her the willpower to track down and kill her dangerous children). With Jack it at least makes a bit of sense--she's been a science experiment all her life, of course she's going to be used to being seen basically naked, and along with her hair it can be argued that the way she dresses is a form of rebellion and liberation. And with Miranda, while she doesn't dress much worse than Femshep, the camera [http://www.themarysue.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/MirandaGreatButt1.jpeg] likes to make it known what the game wants you to be looking at.

And that screenshot isn't even from when you're romancing her. It's just a regular cutscene that's from her story arc. Stuff like that has no place in situations like that. When a game is deliberately sabotaging its characters for the sake of gratuitous ass and boob shots, it's hard to not argue that the characters aren't damaged in the crossfire as well. Yes, it doesn't affect the writing, however it can drastically alter the situations they are in as a whole. I mean, just imagine if Samuel L. Jackson did that whole "English ************, do you speak it?!" scene from Pulp Fiction wearing nothing but a speedo and sunglasses. The speech and the writing may be the same, but can you honestly argue that you perceive his character a bit differently because of that appearance? Or at the very least, that it would confuse you just a bit?
Well that's the thing, a BIT. Nobody's arguing that it has a strictly positive effect, but it isn't that big a deal. A sexual presentation isn't going to ruin an interesting character for me. I don't let animation bugs bother me, I don't let questionable lip syncing bother me, and I don't let ass shots, which are a lot less weird than the other stuff I mentioned, sabotage my enjoyment of the game.

To me, it's a nitpick.
 

TheDoctor455

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BrotherRool said:
Samara#'s sexualisation really clashes with her character and its awful that they chose to do that. But Mass Effect in general is pretty disgraceful with throwing people off the boat to sexualise them *coughmirandasbumcough* but the character itself wasn't bad.

If it doesn't actually conflict with the character then it doesn't bother me too hugely (but if it's Lara Croft silly it begins to do itself some harm if they want it taken seriously), although it's always nice to have some more diversity and some more ordinary looking people.
Silly until you remember that there is a significance, a meaning, to most of the tattoos on her body.

Lot of them are her attempts at visualizing her emotional scars; or did you think those were designs you'd get at any ME tattoo shop?

OT:

Miranda, also from ME. I know, I know she comes off as a bit bratty a lot of the time, but she does get more relatable the more you talk to her. Also, the whole backstory with her father comes off as a deconstruction of the Mary Sue. Why does she seem to be almost perfect in every way? Because her asshole father designed her, and grew her in a test tube to be his idea of perfection. Its also worth noting that she doesn't give herself any credit for anything she does... except her mistakes.
 

BrotherRool

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TheDoctor455 said:
BrotherRool said:
Samara#'s sexualisation really clashes with her character and its awful that they chose to do that. But Mass Effect in general is pretty disgraceful with throwing people off the boat to sexualise them *coughmirandasbumcough* but the character itself wasn't bad.

If it doesn't actually conflict with the character then it doesn't bother me too hugely (but if it's Lara Croft silly it begins to do itself some harm if they want it taken seriously), although it's always nice to have some more diversity and some more ordinary looking people.
Silly until you remember that there is a significance, a meaning, to most of the tattoos on her body.

Lot of them are her attempts at visualizing her emotional scars; or did you think those were designs you'd get at any ME tattoo shop?

OT:

Miranda, also from ME. I know, I know she comes off as a bit bratty a lot of the time, but she does get more relatable the more you talk to her. Also, the whole backstory with her father comes off as a deconstruction of the Mary Sue. Why does she seem to be almost perfect in every way? Because her asshole father designed her, and grew her in a test tube to be his idea of perfection. Its also worth noting that she doesn't give herself any credit for anything she does... except her mistakes.
I think you're talking about Jack. I'm fine with Jack, the only complaint I have is that I don't think Shepard should have slept with her on a romantic playthrough. Jack has been exploited for her body most of her life and I kinda think Shepard should have held off so that it could be a purely emotional bond until later down the line (ME3 would have been really appropriate for that)
 

wulf3n

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NightowlM said:
She even said that the gender of the bodies she inhabits doesn't matter and would be just as happy in a male chassis.
But never does get a male chassis[as far as I'm aware], which is why to me, it feels like just an excuse that allows the writers to have an attractive female lead, that walks around naked/half-naked all the time.

I get what you're saying and it's kind of cool, that "her" [if you can even assign gender] character recognises "self" through consciousness, that a body is merely a vehicle in which utility is more important than aesthetic, I just never saw the writers/creators really exploring the concept properly.
 

The White Hunter

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Roronoa Zoro fulfills all my fantasies and is one of the best written characters I've ever known :p

(also he bench presses buildings and cuts trains in two).
 

David Chadwell

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Ghost in the Shell paints a world view very subtly at times. Motoko isn't so much singled out rediculously in her series, it's a reflection of a larger picture. When an economy/nation is doing well, skirts get shorter. This has been documented in the U.S. for the past 100 years. Japan is toying with being a super power in the first season of Ghost in the Shell due to the research of the past national trials (nuclear warfare, aging population) coming to fruition. In the second and on through the movies, the refugee situation and the northern provinces bring the country back down. Now notice how in the first season, the prime minister is wearing exactly what a female politician would wear in a socially conservative country- it's nearly old fashioned (i.e. reminiscent of the late 1980s in the late 2120s), it's blatantly red (research has been done about red clothing and power/authority assessment), it's distinctly professional attire, it's unmistakably feminine...but it also has a slit in the skirt nearly past the waist. As the story goes on, the same character wears nearly the same thing in nearly the same setting but due to the state of the country the slit is much lower.

In any other series, I'd throw that assessment away. In Ghost in the Shell, they actually rely on little details like that for world building.

As for the primary entreat of this thread, over-sexualization...The Major is actually under-sexualized in a way. As first created, the character is homosexual. The only times the show's pointed to her being sexually involved or even interested was a)when she hangs out with the lesbian couple she's a semi-third wheel to b)when she jokes in the second season about taking the team to a gentleman's club c)when she calls a teenager on his bluff. (The character in season two wasn't a sexual relationship, as everything from the relationship starting when they were children to her own definition of it being purely emotional.) And that's kind of the point: the character is a brain/personality piloting her artificial, swappable body. The fact that it's designed to look like a common civilian model, that she doesn't pursue relationships due to lacking some of the biological components that drive it along with a pseudo military career and background, that she doesn't feel what happens to her body she pilots it...all this leads up to one of her big character points and a plot point of the series as a whole.

A lot of what Ghost in the Shell is about is how human Motoko Katsuragi is and what being human in the first place means. Her under-sexualization is part of that. Nearly every attempt at fan-service is portrayed in a much more detached, clinical manner. The first movie opens with what should be pandering nudity, but it's technically PG-13 because it's artificial(i.e. like a background painting or sculpture) and medical(i.e. like surgery). The language in the movie drives it closer to R than the nudity in...well, that scene. When the character is shown exerting her body, it's blatantly from an engineering standpoint-like the time she ripped her muscles trying to pry a tank hatch off. When she's in deep feeling, it's from swimming the internet.

Motoko Katsuragi is one the least sexualized characters. And, at least I feel, that a lot of Ghost in the Shell is lost on the audience that doesn't understand that.
 

Xdeser2

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TBH, I can forgive oversexualized characters if they are written really well

Miranda and Samara from ME2 (and 3) have great quests and genuinely likeable characters that you can sympathize and even empathize with.

Whats funny though is that those examples seem to even further damn characters that are designed with simply "BOOBS WILL SELL OUR GAME!" in mind *Cough* Lollipop Chainsaw *Cough*
 

BathorysGraveland2

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The Madman said:
I wanted to get a decent picture to demonstrate but 90% of the stuff that pops up on google image for Ves are either pictures from the sex scene or Skyrim mods, what the hell?
Horny teenagers, man.

I still don't see it in her outfit though. Roche's entire unit wear lighter armour and equipment because they're elite agents, behind-enemy-lines type people, rather than warriors in heavy mail/plate armour. So it does make sense for her to look lightly equipped. She is wearing a jacket, white shirt and some light-coloured pants that cover her whole body. I don't see anything sexual there, rather logical given the kind of troops Roche's unit are.
 

TheDoctor455

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BrotherRool said:
TheDoctor455 said:
BrotherRool said:
Samara#'s sexualisation really clashes with her character and its awful that they chose to do that. But Mass Effect in general is pretty disgraceful with throwing people off the boat to sexualise them *coughmirandasbumcough* but the character itself wasn't bad.

If it doesn't actually conflict with the character then it doesn't bother me too hugely (but if it's Lara Croft silly it begins to do itself some harm if they want it taken seriously), although it's always nice to have some more diversity and some more ordinary looking people.
Silly until you remember that there is a significance, a meaning, to most of the tattoos on her body.

Lot of them are her attempts at visualizing her emotional scars; or did you think those were designs you'd get at any ME tattoo shop?

OT:

Miranda, also from ME. I know, I know she comes off as a bit bratty a lot of the time, but she does get more relatable the more you talk to her. Also, the whole backstory with her father comes off as a deconstruction of the Mary Sue. Why does she seem to be almost perfect in every way? Because her asshole father designed her, and grew her in a test tube to be his idea of perfection. Its also worth noting that she doesn't give herself any credit for anything she does... except her mistakes.
I think you're talking about Jack. I'm fine with Jack, the only complaint I have is that I don't think Shepard should have slept with her on a romantic playthrough. Jack has been exploited for her body most of her life and I kinda think Shepard should have held off so that it could be a purely emotional bond until later down the line (ME3 would have been really appropriate for that)
Yes, the part before 'OT' is about Jack. And you only really have sex with her in ME2 if you pick the renegade option when she asks you if this is about sex. If you take the paragon option... when she visits you before the suicide mission, all you do is cuddle. Compare that last love scene with Jack in ME2 with those of the other romanceable companions... they make it pretty clear when sex is or is not happening.


The only time you can actually have sex with her without her hating you is if you stay with her in ME3, by which time she's started to move on from a lot of her past, so hardly adding to her problems there.
 

Terminate421

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Did I win?

When I played Mass Effect 2, I almost immediately saw the changes they made to her design. Though I also grew around to liking her more. She wasn't my romantic interest but I can somehow see other people doing it.

She isn't horny but I seriously think they brought out some sexual taunts with her.
 

Casual Shinji

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King Aragorn said:
MGS, specifically EVA, you could argue even Meryl/Naomi weren't bad characters, even if heavily sexaulised. I mean, EVA has her top unzipped the entire time...
I don't mind sexualising, unless the game really pushes it in your face every 5 seconds.
Also, EVA's whole m.o. was to be a seductress, so it kind of fits. ...This time.
 

Eddie the head

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oreso said:
sumanoskae said:
To be fair, I see the term "Objectify" thrown around a whole bunch, often improperly, it's no wonder oreso got the wrong idea about what it means.
:D

Yeah, I was kinda using the word facetiously. I'm kinda tired of its looser meaning of "ZOMG! You found me attractive! You don't respect me, jerk!"

Folks should probably lose the shame and insecurity here. I can totally ogle Lara or anyone all day and it wouldn't mean anything special about how I regard them as a person/character overall.
When you said that I thought of this video.

Are you thinking about how she feels?
 

King Aragorn

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I guess Ashley, in ME3, isn't a bad character even if they added extra appeal to her. Miranda is on the same boat to, and it kind of fits into her story, being engineered to perfection.
 

BrotherRool

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TheDoctor455 said:
Yes, the part before 'OT' is about Jack. And you only really have sex with her in ME2 if you pick the renegade option when she asks you if this is about sex. If you take the paragon option... when she visits you before the suicide mission, all you do is cuddle. Compare that last love scene with Jack in ME2 with those of the other romanceable companions... they make it pretty clear when sex is or is not happening.


The only time you can actually have sex with her without her hating you is if you stay with her in ME3, by which time she's started to move on from a lot of her past, so hardly adding to her problems there.
Okay, I was talking about Samara and you quoted me saying 'except when you realise her tatoos...' which puzzled me a bit. And then I didn't include my bit when I quoted you making my comment look a little weird too =D

I didn't know that the paragon thing was only a cuddle. I'm glad about that, it was the way it should've been.
 

TheCommanders

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I think Miranda from Mass Effect proves that a Ms. Fanservice can still be a fully realized character. I'm quite partial to "Defrosting the Ice Queen" romances, and her's ranks (for me) among the best in gaming. Probably the reason Morrigan is my favorite romance from Dragon Age: Origins, as well. Yay Bioware.
 

TheDoctor455

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BrotherRool said:
TheDoctor455 said:
Yes, the part before 'OT' is about Jack. And you only really have sex with her in ME2 if you pick the renegade option when she asks you if this is about sex. If you take the paragon option... when she visits you before the suicide mission, all you do is cuddle. Compare that last love scene with Jack in ME2 with those of the other romanceable companions... they make it pretty clear when sex is or is not happening.


The only time you can actually have sex with her without her hating you is if you stay with her in ME3, by which time she's started to move on from a lot of her past, so hardly adding to her problems there.
Okay, I was talking about Samara and you quoted me saying 'except when you realise her tatoos...' which puzzled me a bit. And then I didn't include my bit when I quoted you making my comment look a little weird too =D

I didn't know that the paragon thing was only a cuddle. I'm glad about that, it was the way it should've been.
As for Samara...

I think she chose to wear that outfit because she's well aware of the heroic sort of vids that circulate among the asari about the justicars... and I get the impression that she's trying to live up to them in every possible way. I mean, she clearly hates it when her code forces her to kill innocent people, and apparently... in the lore, there are some justicars that relish killing... so there's that.

Also, asari are generally much more aware and accepting of their own sexualities than most other species, so it isn't that unbelievable that their warrior-monks would wear something like that. Now, maybe its meant to be buttoned up a bit more than Samara has it, but its still form-fitting... which... in a practical sense... allows for better freedom of movement as long as it isn't too tight... which it doesn't seem to be.
 

DRTJR

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Zhukov said:
sumanoskae said:
IMO, if the way a character looks destroys your ability to take them seriously, assuming that it doesn't directly contradict their character, that's a problem YOU have, not the game.

Especially when we're talking about something as superficial as the fact that they're attractive.

I didn't play Mass Effect 2 and think "Oh, Samera is a tragic and intriguing figure, but I just can't feel sympathetic for a character with jugs like that"

If you ask me, THAT'S superficial.
Tell me, if your boss showed up to work one day in his underpants and nothing else, would you really have no trouble taking his instructions seriously?
No, you should be able to continue on your work with nary a snicker. it's the logos of the character's motivation that is the most crucial.