Okay I'll concede DK 1 & 2 then, that's 1/2 depending on how you score it.
botobeno said:
At any rate, if they already have parents being furious about their 10 year olds killing evil stuff in a game that's clearly rated 16+, meaning they shouldnt let their kids play it to be begin with and should learn to be responsible parents instead of blaming other people for their shortcomings, most gamemakers problably wont take the risk to make games of evil vs good
There arent that many movies of evil vs good either. Maybe it's just socially unacceptable for most people.
Ah, how did I forget about evil genius?
That's 3
Postal? I guess, though I thought there wasn't a story in the first one.
Postal 2? I don't rcall anyone that wasn't a jerk at the very least... half a point.
So 3.5 so far
Mirrors Edge? You play a law breaker, but not an evil do-er, the police work for a corrupt and oppresive regime, and at least once open fire on an unarmed and stationary person (faith)
perhaps they're not "evil" per se, but they aren't exactly good.
The Vong war was costly...
Anywho, Vectivus was (supposedly) a person who found a way to use the Dark side constructively. "The Sith way is sacrifice," Lumiya says. Being able to kill those most important to you, she tells her apprentice, is a rite of passage to make the job easier, for lack of a better word. Killing few to save many.
That's kind of the "good" most game antagonists are stuck with, Dane Vogel in Saint's Row 2
had the poor joining street gangs and getting shot up or not joining and getting shot up by said gangs to lower property values so he could buy areas and make them into shiny metropoli, remaking Stillwater into a more perfect, corporate image.
Still, I'm not sure his corruption was all that bad compared to the Boss's corruption. "Kill everyone because I can bwahahaha!"
EDIT: Further elaboration: At the end of the game (pre DLC) he/she says "this our city, we do whatever the fuck we want." There wasn't much of a goal beyond retaking the city the Boss deemed his/hers on account of conquering it 5 years prior. Then, crazy with revenge, he/she is willing to leave the his/her beloved conquest to pursue someone who tried to kill him/her, but then left Stillwater, never to return.
At the end of the day it seems game antagonists might be nicer than you, but they'll never be "good."
Cept he created a crime wave on purpose for the express reason of making money, the bos is absolutly evil, but so is Vogel, they're just different types of evil, a vengeful, raging psychotic vs a calculating, manipualative sociopath.
I'm not sure which is worse frankly.
There are many, many evil deeds,
but only 2 good deeds, fixing problems caused by evil, and stopping evil once and for all.
for example... an evil person may want to kill people, or destroy the world (in various ways)... or steal... oooor enslave people... or ruin the world to make it unlivable or... anything... anything at all...
the only goal of a good person is to stop/fix this.
so, playing an evil person, and only being allowed to do one or two of these things would feel like a closed and restrictive game...
but as a good guy, anything you do outside of those 2 small goals actually feels like a bonus.
There are many, many evil deeds,
but only 2 good deeds, fixing problems caused by evil, and stopping evil once and for all.
for example... an evil person may want to kill people, or destroy the world (in various ways)... or steal... oooor enslave people... or ruin the world to make it unlivable or... anything... anything at all...
the only goal of a good person is to stop/fix this.
so, playing an evil person, and only being allowed to do one or two of these things would feel like a closed and restrictive game...
but as a good guy, anything you do outside of those 2 small goals actually feels like a bonus.
There are many, many evil deeds,
but only 2 good deeds, fixing problems caused by evil, and stopping evil once and for all.
for example... an evil person may want to kill people, or destroy the world (in various ways)... or steal... oooor enslave people... or ruin the world to make it unlivable or... anything... anything at all...
the only goal of a good person is to stop/fix this.
so, playing an evil person, and only being allowed to do one or two of these things would feel like a closed and restrictive game...
but as a good guy, anything you do outside of those 2 small goals actually feels like a bonus.
Mirrors Edge? You play a law breaker, but not an evil do-er, the police work for a corrupt and oppresive regime, and at least once open fire on an unarmed and stationary person (faith)
perhaps they're not "evil" per se, but they aren't exactly good.
Given that i was playing as a total killing machine, unarmed all the time, it's not unreasonable to assume that my character had been like that too in the time before the game started. Maybe they did try the friendly approach a few years back. Besides people telling you to run, there is not much proof Faith is a pacifist. Not that i remember, but i could be wrong. And what oppresive regime? Frankly i didnt see much of it. It kinda feels like you're just hanging out with the wrong crowd, kinda like how streetgangs consider the police to be the enemy while in fact it's them that are ruining the place.
I've always considered Faith to be some sort of asian sexbot on killmode. It explained her looks, her regeneration, her incapacity to properly handle guns and her combat capacities. She is definatly not human. At any rate, she doesnt compare to your unarmed worker minions in Evil Genius. While those can charge at the enemy too, if you order them to, they're quite poor at melee combat. Faith can wipe out entire police squads with hit and run, hide and seek. She is as unarmed as the alien from the alien films is. I would poop my pants and panickly empty my gun in her general direction if i was one of those policemen, problably turning to scream and run when my ammo runs out. The way i played her, she was a monster.
I have had in fact a game idea for a rpg like that some time ago. It would be you playing as the dragon (second in command pretty much) to the big bad, trying to accomplish your masters goals while those pesky little dogooders keep trying to mess it all up. So the reason you cant play such a game at the moment is because i lack gamemaking skills. Give it a few years.
There are many, many evil deeds,
but only 2 good deeds, fixing problems caused by evil, and stopping evil once and for all.
for example... an evil person may want to kill people, or destroy the world (in various ways)... or steal... oooor enslave people... or ruin the world to make it unlivable or... anything... anything at all...
the only goal of a good person is to stop/fix this.
so, playing an evil person, and only being allowed to do one or two of these things would feel like a closed and restrictive game...
but as a good guy, anything you do outside of those 2 small goals actually feels like a bonus.
say the villian wants to blow up the sun, and the hero is an ordinary resident of earth.
for the hero, his thoughts are as follows: stop villian = planet saved, dont stop villian = dead. how do i stop the villain?
and thats something any player can understand... overcoming the threat of death is an easy thing for anyone to underastand.
for the villian, the decision is: why do i destroy the world? how do i destroy the world? why do i sacrifice myself? how do i achieve this goal? how do i deal with the meddling hero?
this is harder for a player to understand... the player has to understand the villains unusual attitude, and agree with him in order to feel immersed. there are those that feel this plan is farfetched and unrealistic. there are people that would take down the hero themselves, and those that think this is a silly idea and henchmen should be used while you power up the laser. then understanding the reson why the villain would sacrifice himself for no gain... its much harder to write, far too open to make and probabaly wouldnt be profitable due to the controversy and... because its not better than playing the hero, its just different.
SimCity is the only game i can think of thats anything like an evil sim... because only you know why you would want to ruin a city you spent hours building, with UFOs and fire and earthquakes... you therefore already know why youre doing it, but you cant preprepare a story like that... because you made up the reasoning... it pretty much has to be: "heres a sandcastle, fuck it up... you decide why."
OH! I've (technically) got it! D&D! I've never heard of player characters acting like good, civilized, righteous souls and, while they're supposedly meant to be fighting evil archduke Killforfun the third, they're usually busier mugging holy men, holding people hostage, destroying towns with a "summon meteor" scroll, and screwing NPCs over for giggles. (in my experience at least) Players often seem bent on derailing my initial plans by making the quest givers (who often want nothing more than the good of their land) their enemies, just not directly.
"Oh," says a supposed paladin, "We're meant to rescue the people the goblins captured? Right, let's slaughter these half-orc bitches!"
DM: "Actually, the goblin patrols are on the other side of the camp, you don't need to..."
P: "Then they're further away? Perfect, open fire, !"
DM: "What I mean is you can avoid the pointless taking of life and-"
R: "I rolled a 19!"
DM: "Oh, nevermind."
*after combat*
P: "So these are the hostages? Ok, we could probably get some gold for the kids, with the fat guy we'll-"
DM: "Wait, what!?"
R: "We passed a slave trader on the way here, can't let an oppurtunity go to waste."
P: "Were there any young maidens among the hostages?"
DM: "O_0"
The technicality comes in at it being a tabletop game. Does it count?
You make some good points about Faith I suppose, but they are oppressive, they monitor ALL comunication in the city, I guess it depends on how you feel about that, and runners are being hunted because you are transporting data that they can't read.
Also ot's pretty explicitly stated that they are corrut when they try to frame Faith's sister for murder.
botobeno said:
moretimethansense said:
Then why can't I be the one causing problems and the antagonist be the one trying to fix them?
Why would that feel restrictive?
I don't see it.
I have had in fact a game idea for a rpg like that some time ago. It would be you playing as the dragon (second in command pretty much) to the big bad, trying to accomplish your masters goals while those pesky little dogooders keep trying to mess it all up. So the reason you cant play such a game at the moment is because i lack gamemaking skills. Give it a few years.
Why does it have to be "blow up the sun"?
How about Conquering the world?
Or torturing and killing the hero and his family for some percieved slight?
Or perhaps a corrupt buisness owner getting rid of competition by secretly eroding their financial holdings, bribing officials or outright murdering them?
The mark of a good villain is that people CAN identify with them, that's what makes them so endearing.
Or even in the sun case, just make him charismatic and larger than life, a sun exploding villain sounds more like an affectionate parody anyway.
Why does it have to be "blow up the sun"?
How about Conquering the world?
Or torturing and killing the hero and his family for some percieved slight?
Or perhaps a corrupt buisness owner getting rid of competition by secretly eroding their financial holdings, bribing officials or outright murdering them?
The mark of a good villain is that people CAN identify with them, that's what makes them so endearing.
Or even in the sun case, just make him charismatic and larger than life, a sun exploding villain sounds more like an affectionate parody anyway.
this is exactly the point ive made... twice...
there are too many options to make a successful user-controlled, villain-sided, interactive story. did you even read my post?
OH! I've (technically) got it! D&D! I've never heard of player characters acting like good, civilized, righteous souls and, while they're supposedly meant to be fighting evil archduke Killforfun the third, they're usually busier mugging holy men, holding people hostage, destroying towns with a "summon meteor" scroll, and screwing NPCs over for giggles. (in my experience at least) Players often seem bent on derailing my initial plans by making the quest givers (who often want nothing more than the good of their land) their enemies, just not directly.
"Oh," says a supposed paladin, "We're meant to rescue the people the goblins captured? Right, let's slaughter these half-orc bitches!"
DM: "Actually, the goblin patrols are on the other side of the camp, you don't need to..."
P: "Then they're further away? Perfect, open fire, !"
DM: "What I mean is you can avoid the pointless taking of life and-"
R: "I rolled a 19!"
DM: "Oh, nevermind."
*after combat*
P: "So these are the hostages? Ok, we could probably get some gold for the kids, with the fat guy we'll-"
DM: "Wait, what!?"
R: "We passed a slave trader on the way here, can't let an oppurtunity go to waste."
P: "Were there any young maidens among the hostages?"
DM: "O_0"
The technicality comes in at it being a tabletop game. Does it count?
I hope you stripped the Pally of his divine protection for that one!
But no, I was specifically asking about Videogames, Tabletops have been doing it for years (if only becauser they're user generated) and other media follow villains vs good guys every now and again, it's only videogames that are almost devoid of it.
Why does it have to be "blow up the sun"?
How about Conquering the world?
Or torturing and killing the hero and his family for some percieved slight?
Or perhaps a corrupt buisness owner getting rid of competition by secretly eroding their financial holdings, bribing officials or outright murdering them?
The mark of a good villain is that people CAN identify with them, that's what makes them so endearing.
Or even in the sun case, just make him charismatic and larger than life, a sun exploding villain sounds more like an affectionate parody anyway.
this is exactly the point ive made... twice...
there are too many options to make a successful user-controlled, villain-sided, interactive story. did you even read my post?
You play as an Evil Genius, and you have to manage your base, order minions around and send them out to carry out acts of evil on the world map.
That should definitely count.
The people you fight against are agents (from the Forces of Justice, no less), and while some of them are incompetent buffoons, others aren't... *dread*
You won't catch a good guy doing something evil, unless they're mercilessly slaughtering your minions currently staffing the hotel (but they are subversive minions, trained in the art of trickery and deceit).
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