PC or Console, the developers still need to get payed

[TheComedown]

Last week there where two threads. this one [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.191120-Did-Modern-Warfare-2-break-the-all-important-PC-rule-as-set-by-valve-so-you-know-its-legit?page=1] A news story about Alan Wakes day one FREE dlc that has been designed to encourage new purchases rather then buying used.
Now in the PC elitists thread he says no it(the mw2 map pack) should be free, receiving some support from other such PC elitists and the console players come in and say why should you not have to pay but we should? then pointing out that not every developer can afford to do what valve does.
The Alan Wake thread was the same, but in reverse, a lot of console gamers started complaining that their $5-$10 cheaper used games would be a thing of the past, again some pc people piped up and said hey get used to it we haven't had it for ages, and that's how is should be, if you buy used it should feel used (the missing dlc).

Now both platforms have advantages over the other, and it seems that these are getting less and less, and i find it silly that people are complaining about not getting their cheaper dlc or cheaper game etc. PC gamers have gotten to complacent with valves generosity, and console gamers may now be seeing less and less used games to buy, or at least find themselves with out the dlc goodies that came with a new copy. So what. The way games are being sold and traded is changing, not all developers can be as generous as valve and don't have the resources to hand out dlc for free (or are just greedy pigs) and developers would like you to buy new so they can see more of the profit, to buy new is to support the developers and there is no reason that they shouldn't introduce stuff like this day one free dlc as to give more reasons for consumers to buy new.

So i guess the point of this is vent my frustrations at those that refuse to see that both platforms have their advantages and disadvantages and those PC elitists and the console fanboys that feel they have a right to free/cheaper content really should stop complaining as this is bread and butter for the developers.

So what are your thoughts? on the platform war, and more specifically the pricing for games and dlc on the different platforms.

 

[Arcticflame]

I think that you are missing a key issue - That of publishers stealing money through employment of useless middle men, forcing ridiculous policies and pushing idiotic decisions. All of which screw around the consumer and the developer.

Take one look at the regional pricing fiasco of 2k games and you can see where the problem is. We don't have the right to free or cheaper content, but I'm also not paying for games which are so horrifically overpriced due to idiotic publishers.

Game pricing is too expensive, DLC is not so much overpriced as content is spread too thin.
Large publishers throwing their weight around (See infinity ward vs activision) stuffs around everything.

 

[Lordmarkus]

Excellent point. I myself as self-proclaimed PC-elitist (now with 33 % less elitisism!) doesn't really understand why PC-gamers should get better deals. Why should we get free DLC, when consoles pay up tp 15 ? for them, we even get the games 10 ? cheaper and don't get me started on piracy.

I guess PC-gamers think they should get all software free beacause we pay more for hardware. That's at least what I think but you don't get free petrol just because you bought a Ferrari.

 

[Dexiro]

My thoughts are that I'm fucking sick of PC eletists bitching when they don't get privileges over us, I'm sick of games not getting released on PS3, and I'm sick of all the bullshit about PC gaming coming to an end. Fuck off.
On a side note, I'm sick of all games not being released universally but PS3 seems to get the worst of it. I wanted L4D2 so much.

The PS3 does get a lot of awesome exclusives in exchange, and Xbox is more the multiplayer fps console
Still wish they were all multi-platform though, none of my friends have a ps3 and i'd prefer to be able to talk to someone about the games i play.

I agree that Developers should always always be paid. For me this stretches as far as not even buying preowned (unless the game stopped being published).

Too many gamers feel like they're entitled to extra free stuff, maybe just because some other developer gave them a free update once. That other developer was just being nice, it doesn't mean everyone else should give you a really good free update, some probably can't afford.

Oh and no one deserves more free stuff just because they're on a different platform, that's just stupid

 

[Arcticflame]

Excellent point. I myself as self-proclaimed PC-elitist (now with 33 % less elitisism!) doesn't really understand why PC-gamers should get better deals. Why should we get free DLC, when consoles pay up tp 15 ? for them, we even get the games 10 ? cheaper and don't get me started on piracy.

I guess PC-gamers think they should get all software free beacause we pay more for hardware. That's at least what I think but you don't get free petrol just because you bought a Ferrari.

I've never once heard any PC gamer, ever say that. And I don't think there are many (any really) that do.

PC gamers often get things cheaper because PC's arent a locked software environment, and therefore PC gamers have the large amount of indie titles, browser games and general ease of use which consoles lack. Due to this, the value of a game is cheapened to when compared to a standard console gamer's perception. Whether or not they are correct in changing their perception of the pricing of a game is another question.

And as well as that, PC gamers also have valve, valve show that they can use free DLC to extend the shelf-life of their games, maintaining a steady flow of sales through updates, as well as using Electronic distribution to read the market, many times showing that a cheaper price can in fact mean a larger profit. Look at the weekend sales, look at the statistics garry newman provided on his blog. Garry's mod in fact had it's largest sales well past the release date, an odd occurance which console games never seem to generate. Probably because of the sell and forget policies of publishers.

It's strange how many big budget console games rely on big sales initially and then simply pad out until sales peter out to a small trickle within 6 months.

Compare that with other games, which are a steady flow and you see a disparity.

My personal belief is that Publishers release bad games, whack a large price tag on it, create some hype and just ride the wave before people realise it's a terrible game. No long term community is built, fandom is low and word of mouth is nonexistant.

Good games however generate interest through word of mouth, hype helps of course but the steady flow of sales is generated through genuine word of mouth and a community being built around the game.

DLC is often not released by the developer, but by a small group of programmers with little link to the original game. The DLC is thin on content, and high on price. (See the stimulus map pack). It's quite understandable to think the price is too high.

Publishers controlling prices and the developer's cash don't see games as good and bad, they are simply suits who see money in, money out. They look at figures and quarterly returns. A game which is genuinely good will be rushed out with little regard to building a long-term community. Therein lies the problem. And these tactics are not as effective on the PC where people don't respond as well to hype, and require a higher standard of games.

And yes, I am saying the average PC gamer has a higher standard in games, but not in the way you might think. The reason I believe this is the case is the nature of the platform. A PC gamer has to cross certain technical hurdles simply to play a game, as well as this advertising is not used to advertise the platform as it is used on consoles. Due to this a rift is created where many of the more impressionable teenagers, or soccer mum's go out and buy a console. This is not to say an intelligent person doesn't play consoles, I believe that to be an even distribution between them, rather it is consoles get all the dumbasses as well as the intelligent ones, where as PC is aimed much less at the hurr durr hype crowd.

 

[Lordmarkus]

Allmänt ordbajsande

Wall O' Text

Yes games come a cheap for PC because it isn't a locked plattfrom, old news. It still doesn't answer the question why PC Gamers shouldn't pay for DLC. As much as we'd want it everyone isn't as generous or loyal to the customer as Valve is.

 

[Arcticflame]

Allmänt ordbajsande

Wall O' Text

Yes games come a cheap for PC because it isn't a locked plattfrom, old news. It still doesn't answer the question why PC Gamers shouldn't pay for DLC. As much as we'd want it everyone isn't as generous or loyal to the customer as Valve is.

Did you even read my post?
I already addressed why PC gamers shouldn't pay for DLC. Valve aren't just being generous or loyal. They are creating a steady flow of sales through their DLC. The sales gotten through an action are just as much a form of income as putting a price tag on an addition. Through free DLC they generate interest in their games, creating a new spike in sales.

Unfortuantely consoles have more difficulty with this, especially on consoles such as xbox where microsoft forces you to pay for DLC, even if the developer wants to give it away.

Developers do not need to get payed if the DLC and games they release are terrible. The games released in the past few years have been definitely worse than in the past. And the reason I put this down to is publishers being less about enthusiasts and more about management shuffling their hands between clients and developers. Same thing happened to the music industry, same thing happened to the film industry. Video games are no different, the effect of publisher's growing this large has only been felt relatively recently.

 

[TheComedown]

I think that you are missing a key issue - That of publishers stealing money through employment of useless middle men, forcing ridiculous policies and pushing idiotic decisions. All of which screw around the consumer and the developer.

Take one look at the regional pricing fiasco of 2k games and you can see where the problem is. We don't have the right to free or cheaper content, but I'm also not paying for games which are so horrifically overpriced due to idiotic publishers.

Game pricing is too expensive, DLC is not so much overpriced as content is spread too thin.
Large publishers throwing their weight around (See infinity ward vs activision) stuffs around everything.

i dont know about the 2k pricing thing. but the thing is that a LOT of developers dont have the means to publish their own games, they simply aren't big enough or dont have the resources, im sure many developers out there would love to be able to cut out the middle man but they simply cant afford it.

 

[brumby]

excellent point at arctic flame. Just look at Team Fortress 2; every time Valve release another update, there's often a free weekend, and a massive surge of new players. Best moneymaking strategy ever.. oh and I get a better and better game. Win - Win.

If DLC wasn't free. I wouldn't buy it. Simple. DLC for most of the games I own have been rubbish anyway. Only ever heard good things about GTA4's DLC.

tell me; which DLC's are actually GOOD??

 

[TheComedown]

excellent point at arctic flame. Just look at Team Fortress 2; every time Valve release another update, there's often a free weekend, and a massive surge of new players. Best moneymaking strategy ever.. oh and I get a better and better game. Win - Win.

If DLC wasn't free. I wouldn't buy it. Simple. DLC for most of the games I own have been rubbish anyway. Only ever heard good things about GTA4's DLC.

tell me; which DLC's are actually GOOD??

i dont quite understand what your saying.. im not for or against free dlc, it depends on the context as to what price should be placed on it. but no i wouldnt pay for anything unless it was a substantial addition. like the tf2 updates, i would actaully have payed for those if they had done them all then released them all together in a $15 - $20 dlc (many players still prefer the original items to the new ones in many cases so it wouldnt unbalance it that much at all, just a matter of learning a different play style)

IMO the dlcs that are good are the dlcs that actually do something to the experience or add something to the story, not just extend the play time, and on that i think the passing dlc for l4d2 did that, it added to the story, the character cross over, didnt really add anything new to the gameplay but thats not what the goal was, the passing was made to enhance the story, and thats what it did, the tf2 updates, can you call those dlc? if you do those are good, they add to the experience, more options, more play styles, and all without unbalancing the game.

 

[TheComedown]

...

Actually PC users feel they're being punished with the removal of content and features (editing tools, dedicated servers) that had become standard simply because consoles lack the infrastructure to support them. A proper solution is to make better consoles, rather than neuter games.

Then when assholes start charging $15 for two new maps and three copypaste ones, content that used to simply exist as a result of devs releasing map editors, everyone is being abused. I don't know if you realize it, but this is less than a megabyte worth of content and only a couple hours worth of work, as the maps simply reuse preexisting assets... and its $15 fucking dollars.

DLC is a fucking scam. Period. Horse armor may have simply become a joke, but the practices haven't changed... and they aren't going to. Publishers know are pretty convinced they have console users by the balls. The problem is every time they assert this fact, droves of console users lick the boot that kicked them and beg for more. So... enjoy paying $5-$15 for what everyone could be getting free. Enjoy taking publisher cock deeper and deeper up your ass, because any time anyone implies you're getting fucked, you cry "elitism."

I'm not even mentioning how shitty shooters in general have become since halo.

the removal of modding tools and dedicated servers is only a small part of this debate, and one im not addressing here, the threads i pointed out were mainly about pricing, thats why im not talking about the other to issues.

as for the mw2 dlc, it was 3 new and 2 re-used, i havnt bought the dlc and i wasnt going to, yes it is over priced for very little content, but thats not my point, im talking about those that feel they shouldnt have to pay for it at all.

 

[Theo Samaritan]

So people are realising that both gamers (of all kinds) and publishers are greedy assholes. Big whoop. In the end, its the Publisher that decides what to charge, and by the time they do the developer has already seen the majority of the pay they are likely to get from it (I must stress that Infinity Ward was a singular example, and most developers don't have that style of "low pay high royalty check").

I also laugh at the amount of PC/Console fanboyism that gets attributed to this argument(not this thread particularly, in general). It is nothing to do with a platform, its to do with the service. PC gamers are used to a better service, and currently they are being shit on. Console gamers are not used to it, so they are content.

If Microsoft suddenly removed a chunk of features everyone used from Live, 360 owners would be fucking pissed. Well, welcome to the state of PC Gaming currently.

 

[Wolvaroo]

I know this forum is a huge Valve wankoff, but maybe some of you little'uns are just too new to gaming to realise it, but:

Before this generation of consoles nearly 100% of additional official content was free on the PC.

Consoles have become the main detriment to PC gaming. I'd be all fine with a "Let's just all get along and play our own games" policy if every game wasn't skinned down so it can be multi-platform. I rarely buy non PC exclusives nowadays because they almost always suck.

 

[TheComedown]

...

Actually PC users feel they're being punished with the removal of content and features (editing tools, dedicated servers) that had become standard simply because consoles lack the infrastructure to support them. A proper solution is to make better consoles, rather than neuter games.

Then when assholes start charging $15 for two new maps and three copypaste ones, content that used to simply exist as a result of devs releasing map editors, everyone is being abused. I don't know if you realize it, but this is less than a megabyte worth of content and only a couple hours worth of work, as the maps simply reuse preexisting assets... and its $15 fucking dollars.

DLC is a fucking scam. Period. Horse armor may have simply become a joke, but the practices haven't changed... and they aren't going to. Publishers know are pretty convinced they have console users by the balls. The problem is every time they assert this fact, droves of console users lick the boot that kicked them and beg for more. So... enjoy paying $5-$15 for what everyone could be getting free. Enjoy taking publisher cock deeper and deeper up your ass, because any time anyone implies you're getting fucked, you cry "elitism."

I'm not even mentioning how shitty shooters in general have become since halo.

the removal of modding tools and dedicated servers is only a small part of this debate, and one im not addressing here, the threads i pointed out were mainly about pricing, thats why im not talking about the other to issues.

as for the mw2 dlc, it was 3 new and 2 re-used, i havnt bought the dlc and i wasnt going to, yes it is over priced for very little content, but thats not my point, im talking about those that feel they shouldnt have to pay for it at all.

Yes, they are part of the issue, as DLC as a concept was created to charge people for what they used to get free.

And it was all free. You bought a game, it was good, you made stuff for game, people liked it. Eventually your love of the game generates, by today's standards, entirely new games (tf2, counterstrike), then those games generate new games(day of defeat, oh christ that one with aliens), and so on.

Now? Publisher: YOU WILL PAY $15 FOR FIVE SHITTY MAPS MADE IN TWO HOURS BY A KOREAN AND YOU WILL LOVE US FOR IT THERE ARE NO OTHER OPTIONS

The golden age is dead, but instead of people mourning it's passing, people like you are pissing on it's grave. Angry, it seems, because anyone actually remembers a better time.

i still dont see what the fact that half the new games not having modding tools and the lack of dedicated servers has to do with your point, an they have been releasing paid for dlc since quake. also if every single game released modding tools there would be a crap load of wasted material, not every games modding tools will be used to the extent that its even worth the time and effort to put in the game.

 

[Treblaine]

Last week there where two threads. this one [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.191120-Did-Modern-Warfare-2-break-the-all-important-PC-rule-as-set-by-valve-so-you-know-its-legit?page=1] A news story about Alan Wakes day one FREE dlc that has been designed to encourage new purchases rather then buying used.
Now in the PC elitists thread he says no it(the mw2 map pack) should be free, receiving some support from other such PC elitists and the console players come in and say why should you not have to pay but we should? then pointing out that not every developer can afford to do what valve does.
The Alan Wake thread was the same, but in reverse, a lot of console gamers started complaining that their $5-$10 cheaper used games would be a thing of the past, again some pc people piped up and said hey get used to it we haven't had it for ages, and that's how is should be, if you buy used it should feel used (the missing dlc).

Now both platforms have advantages over the other, and it seems that these are getting less and less, and i find it silly that people are complaining about not getting their cheaper dlc or cheaper game etc. PC gamers have gotten to complacent with valves generosity, and console gamers may now be seeing less and less used games to buy, or at least find themselves with out the dlc goodies that came with a new copy. So what. The way games are being sold and traded is changing, not all developers can be as generous as valve and don't have the resources to hand out dlc for free (or are just greedy pigs) and developers would like you to buy new so they can see more of the profit, to buy new is to support the developers and there is no reason that they shouldn't introduce stuff like this day one free dlc as to give more reasons for consumers to buy new.

So i guess the point of this is vent my frustrations at those that refuse to see that both platforms have their advantages and disadvantages and those PC elitists and the console fanboys that feel they have a right to free/cheaper content really should stop complaining as this is bread and butter for the developers.

So what are your thoughts? on the platform war, and more specifically the pricing for games and dlc on the different platforms.

Ahem, the Developers have ALREADY BEEN PAID, and are not guaranteed a single penny of the profits from the sale of their the games or DLC.

This is ALL about the publishers getting paid, paid not just to break even but make massive massive profits.

Yes the Publishers pay their Developers but they pay them up front at the beginning of the games project with a set salary for work done. The game could end up being 10x as successful as expected but the developers are NOT guaranteed 10x the pay!!! And look how well Activision treats their developers once the job is done... West and Zampella thrown out of their own office by hired goons.

And the problem is not the price of Modern Warfare 2's DLC, premium expansion packs are VERY common in PC gaming and have been for decades. The problem is the content, only a few not very imaginative maps and several rehashes. That is so underwhelming, that should be so cheap it isn't even worth the effort of putting a price on it. It makes more sense to release it free just to spur more sales of the host-game.

People ARE willing to pay $15 for a map-pack/expansion... IF it is bloody well worth it.

(PS: I don't care about Alan Wake, magic 8 ball says all signs point to a DX-10 PC release in the near future which is the only version worth getting)