penny arcade equates used games to piracy

[Boris Goodenough]

Yeah I understand that, I was referring to the two posters above me who used the "well someone else bought it already, so devs already got money from it" argument.

I don't consider buying used games or cars stealing per se, but it does prevent money from a new purchase from getting to the manufacturer. Gamestop marks up trade-ins by 200%. That's an insane amount of profit, none of which is going back to the developers. Would you mark up a used car by 200%? I don't think anyone in their right mind would buy it if you did.

Depends on the car, certain classics and "classics" go for a whole lot more than their selling price back in the day, corrected for inflation.

 

[jasoncyrus]

check it out here http://www.penny-arcade.com/2010/8/25/

The basic argument is if you pirate the publisher doesn't see a dime, if you buy used the publisher doesn't see a dime.

I would go one step further and say used games are WORSE than piracy. Because with used games you are extracting money from the games market. A used game buyer has money in their pocket, and has shown a willingness to spend it on a game. A pirate doesn't necessarily have money or if they do is not willing to spend it.

In my opinion used game shops (and to a lesser extent rental places) are parasites leeching off of the creativity and risktaking of developers and publishers. You could claim that because someone knows they can resell a game they are more willing to pay the new price but I would argue that the amount is negligible compared to the amount a publisher doesn't get when someone purchases used instead of new.

Of course digital downloads and online purchases are going to murder games retailers just like they did record and book stores so I think the gamestop problem will go away in a few years.

*facepalm*

You are seriously able to say that with a straight face?

So buying used at Gamestop...a games shop...which buys new games from publishers...and new consoles...and new gadgets etc...is taking money out of the games market?

Rrrriiiiigghhhhttt...>.>

EDIT:

Also, the penny arcade guys are just pandering to the corporations. They are cowards who are too afraid to stand up and say screw you.

 

[Alfador_VII]

Seeing as how the original buyer now owns the game the publisher has no right over the item, any argument against used game sales is invalid.

I agree basically, however when you buy a game, you don't actually own it. You own the box, the disc and the manual (or scrap of paper these days), but you only have a licence to use the program itself, not ownership of it.

If the publisher puts a clause in the license agreement saying you can't transfer it to someone else, you can't legally do so. Yes, it's a dick move, but the point is they have the right to do it

Personally I rarely sell my old games, and only tend to buy used if I can't find a copy new, but I'm not against it in principle.

 

[Midnight Crossroads]

It's piracy lite.

 

[Cherry Cola]

Piracy is when one purchased game (if even that) is distributed between several different people.

Used games is when one purchased game is distributed to one other person.

How is used games worse than Pirating?

Frankly, this whole ordeal is stupid. Second hand market have existed ever since... well, since any kind of market existed. It's been around ever since gaming started. It's a logical way to dispose of a product you no longer want that has been universally accepted. There's nothing wrong with it. When you've bought something, that thing is yours. You don't own the idea, you don't own the right to clone or copy that thing, but you own that one object. You are free to sell it on or even give it away if you want to.

This is why I hate anti-used games arguments. It's basically saying "ONLY THE BIG BOYS ARE ALLOWED TO SELL STUFF". If you agree that selling used games is wrong, then you are saying that it's wrong for anyone to sell anything they own.

Need to get money by having a flee market? Nope, sorry, that's morally wrong. Have you grown out of your jeans and feel like selling them to a Second hand store? Sorry, that's morally wrong. Corporations being just as, if note more greedy than the people selling their stuff? THEY ARE UNDERDOGS WE NEED TO RESPECT!

this. its the same with any used market anywhere since the beginning of time.

you dont hear any of those businesses whining like a bunch of sissy girls about it.

piracy is much worse, there is a difference, your making copies for free and giving them out to whoever WHILE keeping your own copy. used is a TRADE

TRADE =/= STEALING

There's also the very important part of nobody having a moral high ground.

I mean, what do you want out of selling a game? You want to make some money. Do you need this money to survive? No. But you want it.

Why do Publisher's want us to buy fresh copies? Because they want money. Do they need this money? No. If their game wasn't a complete failure (which would be their fault anyway, not people buying used games), then it would have made back its budget by the time people feel the need to start selling their games.

So essentially, the Publisher's want what we want. And we are the assholes? We, the people forced to buy over-priced games, who are often on a tight budget and can't afford to buy every new title?

Bullshit. Just like developers are individuals, so are consumers. Nobody has the moral high ground.

 

[Kagim]

P2P File sharing concerning media such as games, movies, and music constitutes unlawfully replicating and distributing an IP of which you do not have the representation to do so. In other words, you do not have the right to copy and distribute the product(s) at hand whether you purchased it or not. You have no right to put a copy of Starcraft 2 or S.T.A.L.K.E.R you purchased online for people to download anymore then the people who put Halo Reach online for people to download without even an initial purchase.

Copyright infringement would mean selling or in any way making a profit off those illegal reproductions.

Piracy means committing acts of violence and theft agaisnt vessels at sea. Even in international waters.

While the used game industry may be damaging to the video game industry, to what severity or whether it is worse or not for the developers is not truly know to either side. To say one is more damaging then the other is a weak stance since no one will ever know.

I would go one step further and say used games are WORSE than piracy. Because with used games you are extracting money from the games market. A used game buyer has money in their pocket, and has shown a willingness to spend it on a game. A pirate doesn't necessarily have money or if they do is not willing to spend it.

I never buy used games, however i do avidly trade in video games. If it wasn't for the ability to trade in games i wouldn't be able to buy any of the games i own. Starcraft 2, Bioshcok 2, Re5, LBP, Infamous and Darksiders alone i have used trade ins to purchase brand new.

The difference between me and the person who downloads games without ever paying anyone a dime?

I have the right to barter my property to anyone willing to barter. Trading in my used games at EB isn't much different then selling my games on ebay, with fliers around my town, at school as a kid, to my friends.

This is my property once i purchase a copy of a game, and i have the right to relinquish it for cash or credit if the price is right to me.

I have the right to give away my property for free or for a price. (trade ins)

I do not have the right to infinitely reproduce my property at no cost to me and give away to thousands of strangers. (Uploading to P2P)

I have the right to sell or give my friend my copy of Fallout 2.

I do NOT have the right to burn him a copy of said game, whether i charge him for it or not.

I have the right to have a garage sale and put my games or consoles up for sale.

I do not have the right to emulate and release console emulate and games available for download, whether i charge people for it or not.

Game companies might not like the fact trade ins exist. Game companies have the right to be upset and pissed and try to work around and gain money back from trade ins, such as the THQ 10 dollar fee, and Sony and Microsofts subscription fees. Or DLC products, or making straight up digital distribution more attractive/cheaper.

It is there right as publishers and developers. However it is my right to sell my physical property to others. If the day comes where a law is created that specific details selling video games to anyone is a crime i think we have more to worry about then the profit margins of publishers.

Games are not drugs, alcohol, or cigarettes, and as long as i am paying for the physical disk (Which is part of the cost of you $60 game) then i have the right to exchange it anyone willing to trade me.

 

[Daveman]

Well I think games developers need to realise then that their games depreciate in value. This is why new release DVDs are like £15 at least but I can still pick up The Shawshank Redemption for £3 in HMV. What's more the evolution of gaming is much faster hence they should DEPRECIATE much faster as games get outdated.

What's more it's much easier to prevent used game sales by MAKING THE GAME WORTH KEEPING. I've kept all my great PS2 games rather than sell them on even though I don't have a working PS2 because they were so great I'd keep them on the off chance a new PS2 falls out of the sky!

 

[MR.Spartacus]

Second bubble in the second panel. This ought to be common sense, yes? When you buy used you give the creators nothing and therefore they owe you nothing. You want to complain about project ten dollar? That's just too bad.

 

[Azure-Supernova]

No they only saw the money ONCE for TWO sales of the game, cutting the profit they WOULD have made in half. Thats like one person buying and one person pirating. Half possible profit.

I still stand by the fact that pircay is ok if its a game you would never ever ever buy ever. I pirated a rom of pokemon mystery dungion. I wouldnt buy that game even at gunpoint. I would pay a penny for it ever. No potential sale is lost, i was never a customer. If the option of piracy wasnt there i wouldnt buy the game to make up for it.
That way you dont take away a potential sale.

In this case the guy has money, and wants the game but buys it second hand and so gets a game sale for NO money to the publisher when he could have got it new. Piracy is much much better if you stand by my rule of "If you want it buy it, if its a passing interest or for a cousin (my case) pirate it, you were never going to buy it anyway"

Well here's the thing, that second sale might have been non-existant if it were a new product. I'm not sure about in the US, but over here in GAME or GameStation, the difference between a brand new PS3 game (£34.99 to £39.99) and a previously owned copy of the same game (£29.99 - £34.99) can be quite significant.

The difference between pirating a game and buying it pre-owned, is that whilst the money from the sale of a pre-owned game won't go to the developers, it does go to the shop which they will use to pay wages and to buy in future stock. I worked at my local GAME for a couple months, the sales for New vs Pre-Owned titles was so vastly in favour of the pre-owned because of how cheap they are.

 

[sir.rutthed]

I have to ask: what is the difference here between buying used games and buying used dvd's, books, or cd's which are all accepted practices? By this same logic getting a book at the public library is similar to piracy. The point is they were bought in the first place, so everyone got their cut off that particular disc's sale. Any used sale is just a bonus for the retailer. Seems to me this argument has probably been made before for each of the aforementioned medias and we can all see how they ended up. This is just more anti-pirate hype, and while I hate pirates as much as the next non pirate, this argument is just stupid.

 

[Good morning blues]

For the reasons that people have listed here, re-selling games or buying used really is not something you can equate to piracy, but that doesn't mean that publishers shouldn't be offering incentives not to do so.

 

[PhunkyPhazon]

Alright, time for me to come clean here. This entire used games debate is stupid. I think both sides are overreacting and exaggerating the truth by quite a bit. Yes it's true that not a single dime spent on a used game makes it back to the developer, and all in all I agree with the idea of having to pay for something like a new license to pay online, or giving new purchases exclusive content that used copies don't get. And I always recommend buying new, but if someone doesn't want to spend full price on a game, then who am I to tell them what to do with their hard-earned cash?

But a surprising number of people seem to want to make it downright illegal to sell used games, or at least make it just as looked down upon as piracy. I mean come on now, really? I don't know how much money retailers make supplying and selling new games, but would they make enough to stay afloat? Would people visit game retailers as often if you couldn't get used games at discount prices? And what about older games that you can only buy used? Should it become impossible for people to experience older classics that might never see the light of day on download services?

Personally, I think things are pretty much working fine the way they are. Developers make money off of new purchases when people buy them at stores, stores make money and stay in business by selling the games that get traded in. And another thing, what about all this speculation that games might one day only become available through download? Apparently, Gamestop has tried to come up with a way to remain relevant if that happens, and it already looks like they would be screwed. [http://www.destructoid.com/this-is-how-gamestop-will-tackle-digital-distribution-182276.phtml] (Seriously, would YOU still go there?) Obviously, Gamestop won't last long one way or another if this happens, but couldn't we at least still go there to get the older games for those retro Xbox 360 games that aren't showing up for online resale? Or will we have to resort to buying over-priced rare copies of old games off of eBay just to play them? (Assuming no one bitches about that, too)

And where did this sudden hatred of used games come from, anyways? I don't remember people debating this a year ago.

 

[Brandon237]

Once you have bought the game, you can damn well sell it, thank you very much,

*Big, RICH corporation, let me introduce you to capitalism, I buy it, it's mine, I can sell it, because IT'S MINE!
I can buy it from someone else who is not selling it too, it's legal, and really, you're rich enough as it is, focus on making your crap worth the money I have to pay at a "proper" retailer, one who got the game from you, and I might be tempted to actually get it from said retailer as opposed to a second hand store.*

 

[Cherry Cola]

selling your mistaken drunken purchase of Glee season 1

Uuugh, I hate that show.

It's so stupid and cliche. And who's bright idea was it to make a show around making shitty High School Musical covers on awesome songs? KILL THAT PERSON.

Or, you know, just fire him.

 

[Kagim]

No they only saw the money ONCE for TWO sales of the game, cutting the profit they WOULD have made in half. Thats like one person buying and one person pirating. Half possible profit.

I still stand by the fact that pircay is ok if its a game you would never ever ever buy ever. I pirated a rom of pokemon mystery dungion. I wouldnt buy that game even at gunpoint. I would pay a penny for it ever. No potential sale is lost, i was never a customer. If the option of piracy wasnt there i wouldnt buy the game to make up for it.
That way you dont take away a potential sale.

You cared enough to look for, download, and play a video game that you apparently had absolutely no interest in.

"I want no chocolate cake!"
"But your eating chocolate cake..."
"yeah! But i don't want it, and never ever did!"
"But.. Your EATING chocolate cake. RIGHT NOW."
"But I DON'T WANT IT!"

Out of curiosity, because i would never ever buy a Fresca should I be able to just take bottles of the junk for free? After all if they never gave me it for free i would never have purchased it to make up for it?