people and "Rebellion"

[Vault101]

I assume you mean tribalism? In which case, yeah, kinda. Atleast it's a part of it. We aren't very good at living in gigantic groups like Cities, our brains can't really deal with such masses of people. We aren't made for our common diets. We aren't made for repetitive tasks commonly found in the work force. Those things lead to psychological and medical problems.

Just because you can do something does not mean that it is good for you. I can smoke 3 packs of cigarettes a day, doesn't mean it's good for me.

I think Id rather have all my nice things and not get married off to pump out children

And who exactly told you that I disagree with that? I also like having nice things but I'm not a moron, so the less crap I have to tolerate for those nice things the better. I assume that you'd agree with that. Somehow you seem to have gotten it in your head that I want to return to living in fucking tribes just because I told you that it's accurate when people say that some things are inherently wrong in our society. Maybe, just maybe, you should have taken my post as simply what it was and not whatever the hell you would like to interpret into it.

more suited to living in small community then?

mabye I jumped the gun in talking about Tribalism

its just when people start talking about "alternative" ways of living I get suspicious...like all those possible implications

in tribalism/small comunities its not like I'd have a wide range of choice over a potential mate...or that "not having kids" would be accepted...not to mention career options or ownership of personal property

I cant help but think of how comunism turned out

 

[Vault101]

Basically, yes. I'll give you a example that I hope you can work with.

Imagine your Garbage Man. You don't really know him, he doesn't really know you. So, as far as you are concerned, he is little more then a thing that does a thing. You don't care about his emotions, his wishes or dreams, in short, you don't really acknowledge him as a human being on anything more then the most basic level. Ofcourse you aren't stupid, you KNOW that he is, but you won't acknowledge it the same way you would with for instance a actual friend.

For you the Garbage Man, while you know he is a human, is little more then a robot that is supposed to simply function.

soo........wheres the problem?

of coarse I'm not concerned with Gary the Garbage man...I don't know the guy and its not my obligation to know the guy, he (hopwfully) has freinds and a familiy...so why does he need to know me?

I mean if he wants to say high and make small talk I'd oblige because its polite and aside from what cynical twats might say its nice when we are polite to each other

also if he;s in some kind of trouble (like being harrased by thugs) then yeah Id try and help

unless mabye you built some familiary with the guy...like if I saw him every day, like the guy at the comicbook store or the even the guy I buy my soft drinks from we do actually have some familiarity even on a small level


[quote/]The question is, would you really need a wide range or is that just a result of the society we already live in? I honestly don't know what the answer to that would be, but I can tell you that in a small community you would also be inherently closer to the people around you, I guess that could account for alot.[/quote]

I grew up in a small cominty with a quite a close nit group of friends..I know what its like.....mabye I could imagine myself shacking up with one of those guys.....it wouldnt be awful but I don't see why being limited in that way is such a great thing, and to be honest there arent any "like minded" people in that group

not sure I can answer that one eather..to many "what ifs"


Assuming you would even want that option. The thing is that your fears are based on losing things that you know, you however can't know if you would miss such things if they weren't necessary to a life you have always known. Choice is only really important because we live in a society that allows for it. It would be reasonable to be pissed if having the choice would absolutely be a viable option and you aren't being given that choice for no reason. But that wouldn't be the case. I also don't believe that was ever the problem in what our current society once was, but thats a different story.

Like I said, you are assuming you would miss it. Let's be honest here, baring some huge catastrophe, you aren't going to find yourself going from urban to tribal unless it's of your own free will. We aren't just going to all say fuck it and start over in tribes.

Actually, going on the countless documentaries I've watched, I can't say I recall a single tribe that didn't have concepts of personal property.
[/quote]

for me it just seems going backwards for the sake of going backwards, because apparently you think people would be happier like that

like saying people would be happier if we hadn't discovered evoltuion/science and instead everyone belived they were going to go to heaven when they died

its just out modern society and structure is what gives us the things we like....I can't imagine them making computers out in small tribal communities

I dont know if its because I had the Ideas taught to me but I'm not sure Id fit in a society where "feminines traits and staying in the kitchen" is the way I''m expected to be

 

[Vault101]

Since Gary is only a example to illustrate the general way of thinking, he won't necessarily ever be a problem...you know, even if he were real. The problem in and of itself however is pretty simple. If you are incapable of seeing someone as human as you and friends and family are, it's going to be alot easier for you to treat them as less then human when you do have to have meaningful interaction. Basically, we only have a limited capactiy for empathy.

but he is human, I'm not a sociopath, I know I'd be causing suffering to him if I did something bad

its really not hard, I'm pleasant to to people when I need to interact with them, some people aren't....but generally that's what society requires of us

we have a limited capacity for empathy in that..if I see somonone die on the news I'll think "thats pretty bad" and then continue on with my life..thats not because Im a bad person or because of our modern society..thats because of the way our brians are wired...

I cant cry for the suffering of the millions in the world like I would for somone close to me

and those hundred or more peopel in my "circle" are the same regardless of if Im living with them directly or if they are part of the millions in my city (well kind of anyway)

and its the same in a tribal setting...."foregners" or unknowns from a rivial or unknown tribe I'm certainly not going to see as "human" like my own tribsmen..racism and distrust of others is a natural thing



[quote/]I'm not thinking along the lines of "that would be great", more along the lines of "it would be different if that's all you ever knew".[/quote]

yeah it would....but I dont think its a 100% garuntee that everyones happy


[quote/]I'm really not sure where you are getting the notion that I think that way. For the record, I'm an atheist and it wouldn't surprise me if I actually know more about evolution then you do, in my experience I tend to know more then average about that stuff.[/quate]

wha?...well gee...congrats that you know more than me...don;t see what that has to do with- oh wait

I dont think you think that way..I was using it as an example of "ignorance is bliss" which may not be the basic Idea you were getting at but it came across to me a little like that if youre saying "well you woouldnt know if you were born like that"



[quote/]
Like I already implied, I think differently about the whole feminism thing. Maybe we can talk about that per PM? I don't really want to derail your Thread anymore then it already has been.[/quote]

think differently

is that another way of saying...."women are natually inclined to be "in the kitchen?"" not saying you are thats just a guess

 

[AnarchistFish]

You're gonna hate my ideals then.

Don't believe the governments here are inherently evil, but the system they've been built around, politically and economically, is extremely flawed. Which has led onto a shitload of the problems we now have. Rebellion is really just change outside of the accepted (but not necessarily right) way of doing things.

Unsure if the world is ready for it yet though. Especially with so many parts of the world at completely different stages of development. I think it suffers from apathy too. People accept there are issues, but they're too scared to accept that it means a complete overhaul in how we do things. Maybe people are scared of change, or maybe they refuse to see it.

Oh and don't even get me started on the media. And that's not just newspapers, Rupert Murdoch blah blah. But you say "Communism" to someone and immediately they think Stalin, control, poverty, genocide. And whose fault is that? All throughout their lives people are influenced by these beliefs, and because they've been told them from the beginning they don't question them. And because they don't question them they carry them on.

 

[RedLister]

The government simply do not care for anyone that it's not "profitable" to care about. That's how to run a business, when you're talking about goods and services.

But we are not talking about goods and services. We are talking about people. Human lives.

I'll accept they make tough decisions, but after a while, you see the pattern emerging that they always screw over the little guys. That's how it is in britain, these days.

Besides that, I feel personally wronged by every one of the leaders in my memory. Tony blair was the first prime minister I remember. He opened the scheme of schools that led to me suffering for the majority of my childhood. He even came to our one in particular, one of the first and biggest, saying right there and then that it was a safe place to learn. He's a fucking liar, and a fucking murderer. It'll catch up to him eventually. I've no doubt of that.

Gordon Brown was next. He sold our futures to the banks. Simple as. Never mind the fact that we never voted for him, that he simply came in when blair went out. He showed particular disrespect for young people's needs. He ignored the youth unemployment problem for ages before the recession, ages before older people were added to the dole queues.

Then there's nick clegg and David Cameron. Clegg sold us out. He betrayed us all. He promised a lot, and ended up letting in the complete opposite, just for a bit of power. He's not got any real power, though, so he isn't a threat. Cameron however...Cameron's an eton brat. He's for the rich, by the rich. Worst still, he's completely prepared to sacrifice the future of britain's youth rather than pursue stricter banking laws and actions against tax dodgers.

All of them are morally bankrupt, none of them listened to the public. I've got every right to be angry.

Beat me too it! I am one of the betrayed British youth. The forgotten Generation. Pretty much i just want an actual future without being trampled on by the greed and corruption of the rich and being forced to work for just over £1 on there so called work experience for big fat cat corperations which can easily afford to pay me a living wage but are too tight fisted and greedy to do so. Big corperations are the true "something for nothing" culture. They arn't paying for these work experience people. The taxpayer is and when that individuals placement is over. Just replace him/her with another one instead of giving the person on the work placement a paid job at the end (which i stress again they can easily afford if you go by yearly profit gains from such exploiters like Tesco)

Our government even endorces this taxpayer funded slave labour instead of giving the people real jobs with a real proper wage. Government and the DWP on a regular basis massage the figures to keep the public in the dark about this exploitation Success rate of the work program is like 3.5% at the momment or at least roughly around that. Thats alot of wasted taxpayer money and alot of jobs being filled by workfare placements.

 

[Meatspinner]

I just want to put this here since these kind of threads always end up debating some narrow view of what anarchism is

Anarchism: A political theory holding all forms of governmental authority to be unnecessary and undesirable and advocating a society based on voluntary cooperation and free association of individuals and groups

OTid this train of thought start after you saw The Dark Knight Rises?

 

[Twilight_guy]

Teenagers have a rebellious streak because they have grown up with parents defining them for a long time and wish to become independent and free since they will have to leave the house soon. I think a large amount of the stupid talk with regards to 'the man' comes from them. There are also people who never outgrown this line of thinking and come to hate every form of largish organization on principle since any large group must inherently be evil. I don't like these kinds of people since there prejudice (yes that word is valid here) can blind them to the truth. I have a brother that thinks all cops, every single one of them, is corrupt and dirty. No exceptions. I hate that. I hope one day he sees what a stupid thing that is to say. The way I deal with it is by ignoring it though since trying to argue would inevitably not get me or him anywhere. I think sometimes, when people make snap arguments, you just have to let them sit and cool because often times they are mad and arguing just makes them madder.

 

[Shadeovblack]

The government tells people what to do. + People do not like being told what to do. = Rebellion.

 

[Moth_Monk]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactance_(psychology)

Reactance is a motivational reaction to offers, persons, rules, or regulations that threaten or eliminate specific behavioral freedoms. Reactance occurs when a person feels that someone or something is taking away his or her choices or limiting the range of alternatives.
Reactance can occur when someone is heavily pressured to accept a certain view or attitude. Reactance can cause the person to adopt or strengthen a view or attitude that is contrary to what was intended, and also increases resistance to persuasion. People using reverse psychology are playing on at least an informal awareness of reactance, attempting to influence someone to choose the opposite of what they request.

 

[Chased]

Not everyone who wishes for the apocalypse expects to be a survivor. Just saying.

This quote is packed with win.

I have nothing to contribute that hasn't already been said, just wanted to give an interwebz cookie to Aris.

 

[Vault101]

Society does not require that you be pleasent. For the most part society only requires that we not kill each other.

so some people are dicks...its a sad but true fact of life, you cant except everyone to be nice to eacch other..but if the true assholes are not hurting me and I don't have to deal with them (anymore than certain situations might require) then thats fine with me


[quote/]Let's take the ending of this post of yours. You are assuming (whether you are claiming I an saying that or not is irrelevant, the question alone shows you are assuming it) that when I say that I think differently about feminism that what I think, regardless of what that may or may not be, it is something you will consider negative. With that, that part of your post has a sort of confrontational air to it. All I have however said is that I think differently about it. It's to be understood as "I think differently (then most people would) about it." nothing positive or negative, it's neutral and yet you aren't really treating it neutrally.[/quote]

phrases such as "I think differently" set off little alarm bells in my head thinking "this persons veiws are *controversial*" (controversial obviously being a "nicer" word than I would otherwise use)
I admit thats a guess....but I can only assume if you dont tell me the specifics

[quote/]That's not being pleasent, that's just not being a super-*****. You remained ambitious, but what you are actually thinking is relatively clear. You may for instance take this as me being a dick. I can only say so much as that it certainly isn't my intention.[/quote]

so....what are we talking about?..is it my interaction with others on a day to day basis or is it feminism now? or feminism in regards to your opinion

Correct, that however does not negate my point. I do not claim that modern society is the source, of our limited capacity for empathy, I claim that because we have a limited capacity for empathy, our current society which does not take that into account leads to symptoms that we would not experience in a different society. That also does not mean that said different society would not have problems of it's own.

Precisely. You simply can't care. But not being able to care doesn't only manifest itself as you not crying over the deaths of people you do not know, it also makes it easier for you to be a dick/***** (whichever you prefer) to people that you don't know, yet are standing face to face with. But it also won't necessarily be the extreme in which you are doing it on purpose, the contrary actually, you won't even notice because you lack the empathy to do it.

Sure, but in contrast to now we aren't living with said "foreigners".

yeah..but inter tribal conflitct is pretty much that...very easy to go to war againsts somthing when you see them as te "enemy" rather than human


[quote/]And I only mentioned the whole "I may know more about it then you" thing to dispel this notion that I am saying anything about overall happiness or that I believe we should adopt a tribal system.[/quote]
ok..so you don't belive that....fine then

[quote/]You are presenting me as having antiquated beliefs,[/quote]
not antiquated....just...."extreme"....I veiw those who think they have a "better" systm as extreme...[b/]BUT you already pointed out you didnt exactally belive that..so ok then [/b]

[quote/]yet you keep talking to me as if I were telling you that we should all move to the jungle and eat dirt to survive.[/quote]
I apologise...its just somtimes you get people ranting about the current sysmt who don't realise that THATS what they would be doing in their poorly thourght out "perfect world"

reminds me of a little "documentry" that was on TV years ago.....about a family who lived on an island with tribes people...like "full on" tribes people..the dad, an eccentric guy was really into it and thourght their culture was great and all (so much so he may have even wanted to live there on a more or less perminant basis) they had a traditional tribal marrage and everything, and discussed the pro's and cons surround tribal vs modern life

but in the end they left to go back to the suburbs, because of the kids schooling and everything, my (right winged inclined) mother had a little rant about it saying they were "typical lefties" who would ramble about the evils of modern society but at the same time were unwilling to give up its benefits...and I kind of agree

the kind of one sided veiw we are fed by Hollywood out of all things....."money isnt important" "that high end career isnt as important as spending time with your dipshit family (this is hollywood, familys are usually dipshits)" "babys make you happy" "the poor man in a 3rd world country is actually happyer and more spirtualy enlightented than you" "working in an office IS AN UNBARABLE HELL!!!!!"


Im probably getting off track here...I'm not saying modern society is perfect...or a "take it or leave it" attitude is really helpful to anything..I honestly don't know

I mean I look around and it seems youve got so many people who are unhappy....who don;t know what they want, or they only think they want things because they are told they should want things...

but on the otherhand, I think freedom to do as you wish is very important...yeah, youre going to get crap for doing certaint hings (like being gay) but that freedom is what allows for the pursuit of happyness

and I'm gett off track....again

[quote/]It's far too complicated for me to give you a yes or no answer here because both would equally represent and misrepresent my actual opinion. It's relatively clear that no matter what the answer is, unless I go into great detail to explain my reasoning, you are going to flip your shit.[/quote]

no really...I'd like to know

[quote/]Just so you realize that you can cool down about it. I am a fan of equality.[/quote]

I once saw I guy say he wasn't against women and then follow that with the most mysoganist bullshti I;ve ever seen

so I'd have to see your opinion to agree or disagree.....I't not automatically assuming you are or arnt sexist

but just because you don't think your sexist doesnt mean you aren't...that Angryman101 (may have seen him on the other thread) belives in somthing called "benevolent" sexism..where basically

[b/]"the belive in being sexist...because its in the womenas best interest because they are naturally happyer in that role...and if she says otherwise she doesnt know any better" [/b]<- in a nutshell, and he thinks its totally ok because its not coming from a palce of hate and its totally not horrifyingly awful (which it kind of is)

 

[Vault101]

Not everyone who wishes for the apocalypse expects to be a survivor. Just saying.

then should they just kill themselfs and then everyone is happy?

otherwise its the ultimate act of douchebaggery

 

[Aris Khandr]

Not everyone who wishes for the apocalypse expects to be a survivor. Just saying.

then should they just kill themselfs and then everyone is happy?

otherwise its the ultimate act of douchebaggery

Perhaps so. But I can say that when one is faced with hardship and overwhelming uncertainty about the future, there is a level of comfort to be drawn in the idea that the end is coming, and thus the hesitance and worry is ultimately pointless. Is it selfish? Absolutely. But selfishness can be comforting at times.