People we see as "evil", are we being ignorant of their brilliance?

[ckam]

"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so." -William Shakespeare

 

[LewsTherin]

Evil is subjective. Whether someone is evil or not depends on your perspective. Hitler was a great speaker, but he did decide to murder a lot of people. A lot of leaders can be construed as evil.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machievelli

I felt this was needed.

Lawful=organization, order
Good= selfless
Chaotic=free-will, disorganization
evil= selfish
Neutral=a balance

Evil suggests negative actions with no motive, other than doing the acts. Of course in the real world there are NO true examples of this. We use evil to suggest something so far outside the law or normal social limitations that it is beyond comprehensions

All 'alignments' placed on actions are, in fact, merely due to perspective. For example, if you were attacked by a group of teenage girls on the street and they were beating you up and you pulled a gun and shot one, that would be considered self-defence and NOT EVIL.

However if you just walked up to a group of teenage girls and shot one, that could possibly be considered EVIL.

In reality the action was the same, you shot a teenage girl. Everything else is perspective.

In your situation, you are committing an evil act in defence of your life, against an evil act.

This was Lews Therin, telling you that morality exists, most people just ignore it.

Your quote was extremely arrogant. Please use some justification for what you are saying so I can constructively reply to it

Your pardon, I use the italics at the end of my posts as something of a signature, it was not directed at you in particular.

I suppose in a way I am agreeing with you, as you did shoot someone, as you stated, and that doesn't change. I added that shooting and killing someone is an evil act, no matter what the situation.

 

[Sporky111]

Many people call Nikola Tesla an evil genius, but he was just a little outspoken. As soon as he said he could split the world in two OOOooooo, hes gone a step too far. Besides, many people who were geniuses ended up going crazy, so the most brilliant people in history are remembered as being evil or crazy or something and not as a genius.

 

[Kevvers]

Lawful=organization, order
Good= selfless
Chaotic=free-will, disorganization
evil= selfish
Neutral=a balance

Were talking about real life not DnD. Its not always obvious what evil acts are. For example it might be selfless to die for your country, but it isn't always good. No doubt all these dictators exploit this.

Are you sure that there is that much of a difference here? Are you certain that doing an evil act for the greater good doesn't besmirch the good brought on by it?

I was simply laying down an example for us all to work with, so we're all on the same page here.

I am sure there is a difference because definitions of being good and evil can vary. The issue is not that "doing an evil act for the greater good" is bad. The issue is what are good and evil acts. We probably will agree on most but may differ on others. The dungeons and dragons thing only works because what is good and evil is decided by a DM or some external arbitrator. Lets just leave it at that shall we?

I don't mean to be iffy, I just resent people trying to reduce the complexity of real world to a d20. This all is off-topic anyway, but the original post was pretty banal really.

 

[Kevvers]

Many people call Nikola Tesla an evil genius, but he was just a little outspoken. As soon as he said he could split the world in two OOOooooo, hes gone a step too far. Besides, many people who were geniuses ended up going crazy, so the most brilliant people in history are remembered as being evil or crazy or something and not as a genius.

Yeah, Nietzsche was a 'genius' philosopher, he went totally crazy, and he was regarded as being evil as he inspired Hitler alot with his whole 'Will to Power' idea (although I think his reputation has been somewhat restored recently).
Or Karl Marx although I don't believe he went crazy, but he certainly is regarded as evil by many.

Philosophers have a lot to answer for really.

 

[Typhusoid]

Evil is subjective. Whether someone is evil or not depends on your perspective. Hitler was a great speaker, but he did decide to murder a lot of people. A lot of leaders can be construed as evil.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machievelli

I felt this was needed.

Lawful=organization, order
Good= selfless
Chaotic=free-will, disorganization
evil= selfish
Neutral=a balance

Evil suggests negative actions with no motive, other than doing the acts. Of course in the real world there are NO true examples of this. We use evil to suggest something so far outside the law or normal social limitations that it is beyond comprehensions

All 'alignments' placed on actions are, in fact, merely due to perspective. For example, if you were attacked by a group of teenage girls on the street and they were beating you up and you pulled a gun and shot one, that would be considered self-defence and NOT EVIL.

However if you just walked up to a group of teenage girls and shot one, that could possibly be considered EVIL.

In reality the action was the same, you shot a teenage girl. Everything else is perspective.

In your situation, you are committing an evil act in defence of your life, against an evil act.

This was Lews Therin, telling you that morality exists, most people just ignore it.

Your quote was extremely arrogant. Please use some justification for what you are saying so I can constructively reply to it

Your pardon, I use the italics at the end of my posts as something of a signature, it was not directed at you in particular.

I suppose in a way I am agreeing with you, as you did shoot someone, as you stated, and that doesn't change. I added that shooting and killing someone is an evil act, no matter what the situation.

Ok, no harm done anyways

 

[s0denone]

Hitler at least knew how to spell ignorant.

But no, what kind of idiot jackassery is suggesting that we are ignorant of Hitler's brilliance. Rallying a nation to imprison, torture, enslave, and kill an entire religious culture is not genius, I think the fact that it lead to his ultimate destruction and universal hatred of his ideals in less than thirty years we can safely conclude that it was really fucking stupid.

It is also hugely disrespectful to the people who suffered through Hitler's regime, and people who still suffer today because of his actions to suggest there is hidden brilliance in Hitler, which is why you don't do it.

Crap like this, this is the reason I don't play WWII styled games. These type of games dilute the reality and lessons of a truly horrible event and turn it into something "fun". And goofs like our OP come up with cool ideas like how brilliant the cruel or insane is.

That Hussein guy, wasn't he awesome? If only people gave him a chance. Slavery, man the U.S. wouldn't be in the economic situation it's in right now if it just kept to its guns and kept on trading black folk about like they were yugi-oh cards... Doesn't sound so nice when you put it that way does it?

If these madmen were truly brilliant, they would be able to make their differences on the world without the suffering and death of thousands (millions!) of other human beings, and that is the ultimate point anyone with ideas worth anything would make on the subject.

You should be ashamed of yourself, andy, and I am not backing off from that, it is not OK and I'm not about to sugar coat it, you have gone so far as to seriously say "Hitler had some good ideas, it was just the execution that was a little off"

Well, I'm sure there are a ton of Neo-Nazis that would agree with you. Hang out with them and don't post here if you're going to follow that train of thought.

You said what I said, you just said it better.
Salute.

 

[JonnWood]

I don't believe in "evil". There are only opposing views and possibly mental confusion/derangement. The concepts of good and evil belong in the worlds of fiction and religion, not attributed to humans or any other sentient being.

You don't get the concepts of "good" and "evil" at all, do you?

Laws are nearly universal worldwide, because our worldwide perception of Good/Evil is universal.

Do you mean the ability to see good and evil, or specific concepts?

 

[s0denone]

Laws are nearly universal worldwide, because our worldwide perception of Good/Evil is universal.

Do you mean the ability to see good and evil, or specific concepts?

Specific concepts, regulations and laws are almost identical worldwide. Committing murder is a crime in every single country in the world, because it falls outside the norm.

Evil means "That's not what a normal person would do." or "That's wicked and vile of you".

But since general morality is depicted in the same way worldwide, as such the laws throw the "That's not what a normal person would do" people in prison.

While we could easily enter a philosophical debate on the good/evil expression, what they mean, I'm not up for it, I'm on a huge hangover, sorry

Laws throw people that do not act like the norm in prison. These people are "Evil" because they are outsiders, because they aren't like anyone else.

There's a lot more to this discussion though, like for instance if invading a corrupt country (Like Iraq was at the time, with Hussain) is "Evil"? The U.S killed thousands of civilians in the process, as they bombed cities because "They're hiding there". How about killing a robber? Killing someone that assaults you? How about killing a rapist?

"Evil" is doing something out of the norm, out of our general perception of morality, and since this is almost identical worldwide - I claim that what is Evil in my country, Denmark, is also evil in the US, England, Romania (Or wherever you're from).

 

[Dele]

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Let me get this straight, you're so but hurt over something that happened over 60 years ago, something that a lot of people have gotten over, that you will report someone for their beliefs? That would be like me reporting you because you thought that George W. Bush was the greatest man alive. Yes Hitler was bad, he did bad things but reporting someone over their beliefs is not very intelligent in my opinion.

The fact that you have a German family is irrelevant to the topic at hand, its like saying "I have a Southern Family" or "I have a Russian Family" in an argument about whether or not the South was right about slavery or whether or not the Stalin was a good guy, that just doesn't carry any weight in an argument.

There is also a reason that most video games and movies are depicted as having all Germans from WWII being evil, look at their target audience, people who have been told from the begging that any one who was in the Wermacht, Waffen SS, Luftwaffe, or Kriegesmarine was evil, and that they were all Nazis, enemies of the World that must be destroyed. Its also like that because of ignorant but hurt people like you that would rather complain, protest and report anyone who tries to say anything that goes against what you believe. Grow up and learn to see from other points of view.

You're right.
And I can't debate this subject without seeming like a hippie-style lover of all beings, I know that, and my apologies.

But if you do not condemn acts of vicious murder as "Evil", then there's something wrong with you.

I MUST STRESS that I do not say that Hitlers beliefs are bad/evil, and you can debate that good/evil are in the eyes of the beholder in that case(his ideals) all you want, but if you do not see ACTUAL BUTCHERING OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE as "Evil", then there's something terribly wrong with you, wouldn't you agree?

Sure Hitler had some "Good" ideas, and he did what he did because he believed it would make German a better place to be, that doesn't mean that his murdering of people are as good as why he does it.

Have you read "Mein Kampf"?

(And me talking about my German family in my original post was merely to underline that I am most likely much closer to this issue than any of you Americans, it was to stress the fact that I - probably - know more about this issue than the people reading my post. It was ethos, to make it known that I have ground to speak about the subject, as I rarely get involved in a serious debate in matters of which I have no prior knowledge.)

Just so youre not the only one who gets to boast with your ties to the issue I will give you this backround info: I come from Finland, a country which was an ally of Germany on WW2 and that still maintains much of Soviet era socialism and leftist movement and geographical location between Notorious Alliance Towards Oblivion and Putinocracy federation. I also own Mein Kampf from 1941 and have read it several times and I fail to see anyone as "evil" or "good" since I find the terms too vague and polarized towards the views of the ones pronouncing such words. I also think that murder, torture, rape and even genocide are sometimes necessary to accomplishing certain things. Seeing how that sentence makes me look like a neo-nazi I must state that it does not necessarily mean I like or support such deeds but to me it seems ignorant to say that they have no positive outcomes (I will leave "1 death vs 100 deaths" -dilemmas to other people) and thus have no functions.

Murder is bad, murder is evil, period. The reason that one kills may vary, one might have "Good" intentions, that still doesn't make the murder "Good".

This is the part in your post where you close your mind to objective reasoning and begin fanboy arguing, period. Dont limit your options with fundamentalist ideologies as you might have to contradict them someday. Heck Russia is turning more and more fascistic every year and the warfare around the world is far from over even though in the lovely Europe it might seem that way.

 

[s0denone]

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Just so youre not the only one who gets to boast with your ties to the issue I will give you this backround info: I come from Finland, a country which was an ally of Germany on WW2 and that still maintains much of Soviet era socialism and leftist movement and geographical location between Notorious Alliance Towards Oblivion and Putinocracy federation. I also own Mein Kampf from 1941 and have read it several times and I fail to see anyone as "evil" or "good" since I find the terms too vague and polarized towards the views of the ones pronouncing such words. I also think that murder, torture, rape and even genocide are sometimes necessary to accomplishing certain things. Seeing how that sentence makes me look like a neo-nazi I must state that it does not necessarily mean I like or support such deeds but to me it seems ignorant to say that they have no positive outcomes (I will leave "1 death vs 100 deaths" -dilemmas to other people) and thus have no functions.

Murder is bad, murder is evil, period. The reason that one kills may vary, one might have "Good" intentions, that still doesn't make the murder "Good".

This is the part in your post where you close your mind to objective reasoning and begin fanboy arguing, period. Dont limit your options with fundamentalist ideologies as you might have to contradict them someday. Heck Russia is turning more and more fascistic every year and the warfare around the world is far from over even though in the lovely Europe it might seem that way.

You say I limit my options with fundamentalist idealogies, I say you're a cynic.
I have had death much too close to home, as my father passed away earlier this year (Now last year) and as such I am currently a huge "There is no way the ends can justify the means" fanboy, at least not in this case, as there is absolutely NOTHING worse than death. And thinking about - for instance - how many people Hitler is the reason got killed, it's absolutely appalling.

Yes, I realise that trees don't grow into heaven, but since I don't have to mastermind a plot to overthrow the government, or try to justify any means, I am free to any opinion. "What if you had to choose..." I don't, not currently anyway, and hopefully not ever.

I'm clinging to beautiful idealogies, knowingly that it will never work.
You're a cynic.

We could argue all we want, it would get us no-where.

I respect your point of view, but I believe that in order for us to make this world a "better place" we need to realise morality, try to resolve things peacefully to all means. Turn the other cheek.

I understand if you're against that, completely, I had your point of view not long ago.

What is Good and Evil? It's Right and Wrong.
I believe we should do what is Right no matter the price, at least in the subject of our current discussion.

 

[Andalusa]

We've achieved what Hitler wanted, a united Europe, he just wen't about it the wrong way.

 

[s0denone]

No I haven't had the opportunity to read Hitler's book, I have how ever read several biographies about the man, along with several books about the Second World War, in school I even wrote a paper describing how from a certain point of view how he could have been considered a hero for certain things he managed to accomplish before the war and the mass exterminations.

I agree with you there, he accomplished a vast number of things, only benefitting the Germans, but a large count indeed.

I could see how you might think that having a German family might make you know more about a subject than others, but I resent the use of "you Americans", I may be American by around one forth of my heritage is Dutch, my grandfather having moved to the United States after the war . He escaped a Japanese occupation only for a German one, I think he'd know a thing or two about them, plus coming from a military family I like to know a thing or two about history.

The "You americans" article was both uncalled for, generalizing and outright cheesy. My apologies.

I would not condone rape at all, but what is the point of the murder? Is it just some psycho out looking for his next victim? Or is it for what people view as the greater good, like the elimination of a cruel dictator or an oppressed wife beaten by her husband and unable to get help from the out side?

A good cross-claim on my murder-claim. I quickly retract it, and ask you this instead:

Will you condone genocide? The killing of millions?

 

[Lazzi]

People that treatin the world evil i belive are brillant.

However some "brillant' psycologist are jsut sick.

 

[Flying-Emu]

I think there are plenty of people just as evil as Hitler was, it's just that Hitler, due to special and coincidental circumstances, managed to get into a position of power.

Like Vlad the Impaler.

Anyway, I think it's possible that Hitler was evil AND a genius, but not that we're just misconstruing him. That applies to every evil genius, by the way.

 

[oopsdidn'tmeanto]

Interesting thread.

To quote/paraphrase Kratos Aurion of Tales of Symphonia upon his opinion of the war: "Which came first; the chicken or the egg?" (This will appear in context for those who have played the game)

In my opinion, how you view evil really depends upon whose side you are on.

Oh, and I must say that your response to the leader thread was beyond profound. While I disagree entirely with all that Hitler stood for, I must admit that the man was flawless when it came to grasping the support of the populace. Few people peer that deep into a situation.

Coming from the keyboard of a Christian, (feel free to groan or roll your eyes; I honestly do not care), I believe that the only TRUE evil exists in Satan and his subordinates. The world never was, and never shall be, black and white. Before I am attacked by Satanists, I would like to say that they may very well view my God and I as evil. It is in human nature to do so.

 

[s0denone]

At this time I could not condone genocide for any reason, I simply do not see how it could be a viable option politically or even militarily.

Then we seem to agree after all I was making the point that Hitler was unjustifiably evil, as in his campaign of death (million dead) could not be justified.