People who were more evil than the villain

[scorptatious]

MGS3:

Spoiler

The main villain would technically be The Boss. But she only did the things she did for the good of her country, and she willingly sacrificed (in a way) herself to do it. Even if it meant going down in history as a traitor and war criminal. Volgin, the man who she worked alongside with on the other hand, is a sadist and mad man. He nuked an entire research facility with a smile on his face. He also brutally tortured Snake and ordered his eyes to be cut out. And if he wasn't stopped, he would practically have the world at his fingertips with the power of the Shagohod.

I'm sure there are other details, but it's been a while since I last played the game. So if anyone else has anything to add, feel free.

 

[Sariteiya]

In Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix I hated Umbridge far more than I hated Voldemort. She was just...a horrible person.

Amen to that. I burned with hatred for that simpering little cow. Voldemort was always evil in kind of an abstract way. He just wasn't all that compelling as a villain really.

Is Azula from Avatar technically not the "real" villain? Is Ozai technically the "Big Bad?" If she isn't, then yeah, her.

 

[Berethond]

The Good Witch of the North in Wizard of Oz

-She steals the ruby slippers of the dead witch, which do rightfully belong to the wicked witch assuming she's her only living relative (they were sisters)

- She sets up Dorothy with an object that will make her the focus of all the evil in Oz to attack her, and insures this by taunting the bad witch and getting her angry at Dorothy.

- She lies and says the Wizard is the only way to get her out of Oz and makes her leave the place where the wicked witch has no power (Munchkinland)

- She gets Dorothy to kill the wicked witch because the Wizard claims he needs her broomstick, and the scarecrow says they may have to kill her to do so.

- She's been watching this the whole time and didn't do a thing, and she KNEW that a confrontation at the wicked witch's castle would lead to someone's death.

And only after all this does she tell Dorothy the truth, that she just had to click her heels together to go home. She basically made a little girl from Kansas into an assassin for hire after taking out 2 witches.

The prequel "Wicked" pretty much takes that view, along with playing the "I'm not evil, I'm just misunderstood" card.

 

[Saltyk]

-Shulmph!-

I know what he did as well as you, but I have a slightly different view of things. See, to me, Hojo is brilliant but...like any mad scientist, he has the problem of what happens with his experiments.

The Jenova Project - His experiments on living subjects with Jenova cells, including Lucrecia. Results? A number of failures, a no-reaction (Zack), Sephiroth, and Cloud. The only ones that can be called a success are completely out of his control. One is against him and the company he works for. The other loses his mind and becomes the most powerful psycho on the planet. More than that, the other subjects grow subservient and Hojo then decides later to join the game by injecting himself with Jenova cells, possibly the only way to save his life in any form, should Jenova win.

The Deepground Incident - Upon his death, Hojo's mind is uploaded to the World Wide Network so that when everything blows over, he would have a chance to ultimately get on top again. The whole Omega thing is going on as planned and he has possession of Weiss' body. Good, fabulous. And then...everything goes to shit in an instant, was even a foregone conclusion. Why? Because he made Chaos happen in the first place. Years before any inkling of it might occur, that Chekhov's Gun he planted shoots him in the face - literally - and then even if he HAD beaten Vincent, it seems to me that Nero could have ALWAYS awakened Weiss, shoving Hojo aside as he did.

I believe Hojo underestamated the world at large, and I say that because he is a scientist, through and through, who doesn't believe in the more spiritual themes of Final Fantasy 7's world. His attempts to control Jenova, Sephiroth, and Weiss all failed because he believed he had all the answers, but under the wire...I think they were all watching him and silently snickering.

This is fun!

I think you're confusing competence with evil. Truthfully, no villain is ever really competent. Look at what happened to Light (who I already argued is a villain). He was nearly discovered by L and barely managed to get out of being captured. Once he did manage to get the Death Note back, L was suspicious of the 4th and 5th rules and was out to test them by having a death row inmate write the name of another death row inmate in the book. Really Light owes his success of killing L to Rem. Yes, that was the plan, but it only worked because Rem cared for Misa. And it still didn't save him from Near and Mello.

And how many villains can handle children. In Avatar: The Last Airbender, the Fire Nation can't even stop a small group of children led by a 12 year old boy. Competence isn't in large supply among villains.

I'm thinking of his actions in general and motivations. Experimenting on his unborn son. Experimenting on various other people and even animals (including Red XIII; I always wondered why that wasn't explored more). Taking over a man's body. You called him a mad scientist. And that seems accurate.

And you have a interesting point. Hojo never really saw or believed in the more spiritual elements of the world. And it seems those are the things that ultimately defeated him and Sephiroth.

 

[FalloutJack]

-Villainy!-

I dunno about Hojo, man. Yes, he's evil, but I always figure him to be the mad scientist who's in way over his head. His track record is good for setting alot of this stuff in motion and not giving a damn about human life and so on...but he's second-fiddle to the real threat. For instance, he seemed to set the whole Sephiroth thing in mind, but the truth is that he was dancing to Jenova's tune the whole time, doing effectively what the alien harbinger of doom (and therefore Sephiroth) wanted. And taking in Dirge of Cerberus? It was a nice plan, taking over Weiss and all, but as you saw...it didn't take. Half-baked plan, not seeing the larger designs surrounding him like a web. Hojo's evil but...he's still only human.

Following that logic then the real villain of the game was Jenova, everyone else including Sephiroth himself was just Jenova's puppet.

A fair point. I'm sure there's contention on the fact as well. My thinking continues along lines that the alien and the identity of Sephiroth have now merged.

Except for the fact that Sephiroth kept referring to Jenova as 'Mother' ...of course that was only during the flash backs, so by the time the game happens you could be right.

Thing about Jenova is that it is a gestault being. Every piece is a whole that can operate alone, but has that invisible mental tether strapping them all together, binding them as a single being with a purpose and a power source. You inject it into a person and that person may become more powerful...though degenerate into lunacy because the call of Jenova tries to supplant the consciousness. You inject it into an unborn child and you create a being who evolves on his own and, in the right setting, grows up to be exceptionally powerful in his own right and not even properly awakened. He probably became the central intelligence - the nexus of Jenova - simply because he was the strongest piece.

-Brain Powah!-

Now there, I think you've got me. Light is such an idiot, but he did almost have the world in the palm of his hand. If he had any sense at all, he would've sniggered at the first L transmission because it was obvious bait. So yes, evil is not always the brightest bulb in the universe. Granted, this happens to good often enough (Spaceballs!), but...well...you know.

For Hojo, I would actually say Deepground was his better moment because he set his goals a little higher than normal. The thing about that plot that bugs me is that...okay, they used Midgar's reactors to make the planet believe it was going to expire, yes? Hence why Omega would even show up? Right... I seem to recall the planet having an avatar, a conscious being in the middle of the Lifestream that uhh...isn't stupid. So, why did it work?

 

[Saltyk]

Kratos fits this bill perfectly. Zeus is a dick, but Kratos has a much larger Body count over the course of the games.

I read the plot of the God of War games (I only payed the begining of the first) and all I could think is "Kratos is a prick". I mean, at first you could have sympathy for him, but after that it is just selfish, mindless rage for no good reason, yet they still try to make him seem the good guy. He is the definition of Chaotic Evil (DnD alignment) at its most extreme.

In God of War, Kratos wasn't so bad. He was brutal, but not the biggest prick in the game. Which I think Yahtzee pointed out once. Personally, in God of War 2, I saw it being the story of the Gods and the Titans and Kratos was merely the harbinger of the Titan's revenge. He was a tool for them perhaps. I actually found it interesting that way and was more interested in the story between the Gods and Titans than anything Kratos did.

God of War 3 kinda made Kratos an unnecessarily huge jerk. I started having an issue with it the moment he killed a guy to get the bow that he would have given Kratos for freeing him. It just felt unneeded. If they made it so that the guy tried to kill Kratos upon being freed and Kratos killed him in self defense in a brutal fashion that would have been fine. I really started to wonder what the game's point was around that time. I wasn't even sure why Kratos was here anymore.

The game was still fun, but it just seemed like Kratos had become too inhuman.

 

[Saelune]

Kratos fits this bill perfectly. Zeus is a dick, but Kratos has a much larger Body count over the course of the games.

I read the plot of the God of War games (I only payed the begining of the first) and all I could think is "Kratos is a prick". I mean, at first you could have sympathy for him, but after that it is just selfish, mindless rage for no good reason, yet they still try to make him seem the good guy. He is the definition of Chaotic Evil (DnD alignment) at its most extreme.

In God of War, Kratos wasn't so bad. He was brutal, but not the biggest prick in the game. Which I think Yahtzee pointed out once. Personally, in God of War 2, I saw it being the story of the Gods and the Titans and Kratos was merely the harbinger of the Titan's revenge. He was a tool for them perhaps. I actually found it interesting that way and was more interested in the story between the Gods and Titans than anything Kratos did.

God of War 3 kinda made Kratos an unnecessarily huge jerk. I started having an issue with it the moment he killed a guy to get the bow that he would have given Kratos for freeing him. It just felt unneeded. If they made it so that the guy tried to kill Kratos upon being freed and Kratos killed him in self defense in a brutal fashion that would have been fine. I really started to wonder what the game's point was around that time. I wasn't even sure why Kratos was here anymore.

The game was still fun, but it just seemed like Kratos had become too inhuman.

Most of the time he was being used, he showed no sign of morality. He still is terrible for what he did, regardless if he was being used.

Also...all 3 of us have user names begining with Sa...

 

[torzath]

In Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix I hated Umbridge far more than I hated Voldemort. She was just...a horrible person.

I agree with Umbridge being worse than the Dark Lord. Bellatrix too. Voldemort will kill you straight out for being in his way, but Bellatrix is just sadistic.

 

[renegade7]

The galactic federation in the metroid prime games. They mutate their soldiers with phazon, they were actually the first to try to use the metroids, and then they risk the destruction of civilization with the X parasites. It's never really explained how they're better than the space pirates.

 

[Rayne870]

Reaver of Fable 2, he sacrificed people to stay young, and if i remember right killed the inventor and the sculptor just because he's a vain jerk. The one feature I wanted in Fable 3 was to kill him, and that didn't happen.

Not to mention he stole my kill on the end boss because I was curious about the rest of the dialogue and therefore robbed me of my revenge.

 

[Silk_Sk]

This guy.

It's pretty much a race for second place in the anti-hero contest when Alucard is involved.

 

[Saltyk]

Kratos fits this bill perfectly. Zeus is a dick, but Kratos has a much larger Body count over the course of the games.

I read the plot of the God of War games (I only payed the begining of the first) and all I could think is "Kratos is a prick". I mean, at first you could have sympathy for him, but after that it is just selfish, mindless rage for no good reason, yet they still try to make him seem the good guy. He is the definition of Chaotic Evil (DnD alignment) at its most extreme.

In God of War, Kratos wasn't so bad. He was brutal, but not the biggest prick in the game. Which I think Yahtzee pointed out once. Personally, in God of War 2, I saw it being the story of the Gods and the Titans and Kratos was merely the harbinger of the Titan's revenge. He was a tool for them perhaps. I actually found it interesting that way and was more interested in the story between the Gods and Titans than anything Kratos did.

God of War 3 kinda made Kratos an unnecessarily huge jerk. I started having an issue with it the moment he killed a guy to get the bow that he would have given Kratos for freeing him. It just felt unneeded. If they made it so that the guy tried to kill Kratos upon being freed and Kratos killed him in self defense in a brutal fashion that would have been fine. I really started to wonder what the game's point was around that time. I wasn't even sure why Kratos was here anymore.

The game was still fun, but it just seemed like Kratos had become too inhuman.

Most of the time he was being used, he showed no sign of morality. He still is terrible for what he did, regardless if he was being used.

Also...all 3 of us have user names begining with Sa...

Well, in GoW, I only remember him killing the ship captain being completely unnecessary. The only other people I remember Kratos killing were either actively preventing him from his journey (by preventing the release of a bridge) or a really evil sacrifice design as part of a temple door. And while sacrificing a person to open a door did make me pause for a moment, I hardly think you can blame Kratos for it. Dropping the ship captain down the throat of a dead hydra after effectively saving him? Yeah, that was a dick move.

Looking back on GoW2 and GoW3, it's really hard to think of Kratos as the hero. Yes, Zeus did trick him into giving up his godly powers and kill him, but Kratos was murdering everything with a Spartan army. Like I said, I always viewed GoW2 as being about the Gods and Titans with Kratos in the middle. And I only remember him killing people that tried to kill him. He killed a young Spartan by accident (they fought in a dark room) and actually seemed upset about it. In GoW3, while I enjoyed the game, I couldn't really remember why we were doing this. When Kratos stopped working with the Titans, I felt that the only ones with a real complaint had been effectively removed from the story. Though, they did betray him.

Hmmm. We all have Sa- in our names. I didn't notice that. What a coincidence.

 

[Jakub324]

Lara Croft. Always. See Yahtzee's review of Tomb Raider: Underworld to see why.

 

[Da Orky Man]

In Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix I hated Umbridge far more than I hated Voldemort. She was just...a horrible person.

Amen to that. I burned with hatred for that simpering little cow. Voldemort was always evil in kind of an abstract way. He just wasn't all that compelling as a villain really.

Is Azula from Avatar technically not the "real" villain? Is Ozai technically the "Big Bad?" If she isn't, then yeah, her.

Voldemort is one of the most pathetic big bads ever. What was he? A serial killer. Fair enough, that's not bad, but compare that to Saren, or Andrew Ryan, or Khan.

 

[twistedmic]

Well, in GoW, I only remember him killing the ship captain being completely unnecessary. The only other people I remember Kratos killing were either actively preventing him from his journey (by preventing the release of a bridge) or a really evil sacrifice design as part of a temple door. And while sacrificing a person to open a door did make me pause for a moment, I hardly think you can blame Kratos for it. Dropping the ship captain down the throat of a dead hydra after effectively saving him? Yeah, that was a dick move.

It could be argued that Kratos dropped the Captain because he ran away and left the women (and possibly children) hiding in the hold to die horrible, unspeakable deaths.

As for my choice of people who were more evil than the villains; I vote Eragon from the Eragon books. Eragon has murdered unarmed guards who have surrendered, has effectively tortured people (Sloan definitely, and possibly others that I can't remember right now) and has generally acted like an entitled, arrogant prick.
While Galbotrox, the 'evil emperor' hasn't been all that evil. To date (from what I can remember) he killed the other Dragon Riders, took control of the land and uses magic to force the loyalty of his Army (though I can't remember if the army is volunteer or conscription based). The closest thing to true evil that he does is magically forcing the loyalty of his army, but that can be explained away as a fail-safe to prevent any of his troops from going rogue, turning to banditry or just becoming evil baby-murdering assholes (look at how often that has happened in real life).

 

[CountryMike]

Knights of the old Republic

HUGE SPOILER

Spoiler

Revan from Kotor. After al he was the Sith Lord who caused the war before he was captured, brainwashed and turned to the light sight again. Malak was 'only' his sidekick