Personal Opinion on Religion (Atheist View)

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Mr_spamamam

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Amarok said:
NubletInc said:
Oh and its 4 in the morning and I'm being kept awake by a now half-empty 2 litre of coke.
In other words, 1 litre of coke ;)

I'm atheist too but some people enjoy religion and I just let 'em get on with it.

As for the question of why God would allow suffering... well, I'll leave that one up to a religious fellow.
maybe because without suffering and pain, how would you know how amazing joy was.

I've never really belived that god causes things to happen. mostly its either humans or just the way that things pan out.

Personally I've always thought that god just created the universe and then sat back to watch the show
 

LilGherkin

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I'm not religious I'm atheist in every sense of the word. The only thing most religions give us is a good standard to live our lives, and lay the ground rules. Except for the rules that are contradicting or just plain odd. That's enough for me to be neutral to the whole subject so long as no one drags me into it by bashing what I say.
SODAssault said:
Baby Tea said:
SODAssault said:
lacktheknack said:
So how about the people who claim that God said "stop living off your girlfriend and do something useful", and went off and did something useful?
Name two.
Micheal W Smith and Myself.
Fair enough.
P.S. That made me laugh so hard for some reason.
 

The Young One

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Mr_spamamam said:
maybe because without suffering and pain, how would you know how amazing joy was.
I couldn't agree more with that statement, you need something to differentiate between.
 

cannot_aim

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I wonder the same things but I go up to people I know who are religious and watch them squirm, I love that part.

But back on topic I dont really believe in a higher power and I know what religious people would say. They will either say:

1. That god moves in mysterious and incomprehensible ways.
or
2. That we were given free will by god and that we have to deal with the consequences.

Now isnt that a load of crap. If god gave us free will and saw us screw up time after time and seeing us constantly trying to exterminate one another why not get rid of that freedom? and if this is all part of his great master plan what kind of sick, twisted, sociopathic god are we worshiping and why?
 

cuddly_tomato

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cannot_aim said:
1. That god moves in mysterious and incomprehensible ways.
or
2. That we were given free will by god and that we have to deal with the consequences.

Now isnt that a load of crap. If god gave us free will and saw us screw up time after time and seeing us constantly trying to exterminate one another why not get rid of that freedom? and if this is all part of his great master plan what kind of sick, twisted, sociopathic god are we worshiping and why?
When eagles kick their young out of the nest and watch them attempt to fly are they doing wrong?

When your parents asked you to leave your house was it because they didn't love you anymore and were sociopathic?
 

mike1921

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the1ringer said:
For a sinner (and I think we all, if we are honest, are sinners), a perfectly Holy and Just God who watches your every move is a very disturbing and uncomfortable thing! He even knows sins you've committed when you didn't know it, and he always knew it. And yet He has promised that He will withhold from you no good thing. It is important to remember it's not what you think is good for you, it's what He thinks is good for you. But I would say this is comforting, because He is all-knowing and infinitely wise.
If I can't decide what's good for me I'll be disturbed. I don't see why I wouldn't be.
Also, according to christianity, god is a complete asshole. I would never feel comforted knowing that someone who sends everyone who doesn't think he exists, even when they have no reason to think he does, with them to burn in hell for eternity is watching me.
cuddly_tomato said:
When eagles kick their young out of the nest and watch them attempt to fly are they doing wrong?

When your parents asked you to leave your house was it because they didn't love you anymore and were sociopathic?
If the eagle kills their young in the process then yes.

Also, you're equating the whole human race to one single organism. Unless you're saying an individual human is useless and only the human race as a whole matters than this is totally different.
 

Theguywithhat

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I've been in and out of Religion, i.e. christianity, many many times and I can never be satisfied with it.
I feel pretty much exactly as you do on this matter. Why is there suffering? Why is there intolerance? Better yet, if god really is omnipotent and all powerful and can therefore control everything and everyone, then why are there so many other religions and gods?
My answer is simple, there's no god. If i'm wrong, and there is a god, then the state of our sad world proves that he/she/it/whatever doesn't give a shit about us and never has.
As for a "if there's nothing waiting for us after life's over, then what's the point of living?" question I say this: you should count yourself lucky that you are even alive. Some people don't even make it past birth and yet everyone wants to complain that life's too hard or depressing. Look, the way I see it is that you exist, you'll never exist again and you should be damn happy that you are allowed to walk around and feel pain, because sad and happy go hand in hand. As a young Butters (the one from South Park) once said, "I must have felt something really good to have felt this sad, it's really beautiful in its own way." ( I know I completely misquoted that but I think you get the point)
Eh, I think i'm just ranting at this point. Oh well I've said what I want to say.
 

Deacon Cole

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the1ringer said:
Ah, but some that I have met do not wish this. There are some who wish for there to be no controlling power so they can do whatever they want whenever they want with no guilt or eternal consequences attached. Christianity is the most uncomfortable and yet comforting religion I know of.
So, it's a manipulative guilt trip? Good to know.
 

cannot_aim

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cuddly_tomato said:
cannot_aim said:
1. That god moves in mysterious and incomprehensible ways.
or
2. That we were given free will by god and that we have to deal with the consequences.

Now isnt that a load of crap. If god gave us free will and saw us screw up time after time and seeing us constantly trying to exterminate one another why not get rid of that freedom? and if this is all part of his great master plan what kind of sick, twisted, sociopathic god are we worshiping and why?
When eagles kick their young out of the nest and watch them attempt to fly are they doing wrong?

When your parents asked you to leave your house was it because they didn't love you anymore and were sociopathic?
actually yes :) not really of course I just think that if god wants us all to hate and kill one another why not just save us the trouble and wipe us out with his ominipotent I can kill everything in the cosmos without even waving my hand powers? Or at least less us all die in a semi-interesting way like let us get invaded by aliens or zombies attack or something.
 

cuddly_tomato

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cannot_aim said:
cuddly_tomato said:
cannot_aim said:
1. That god moves in mysterious and incomprehensible ways.
or
2. That we were given free will by god and that we have to deal with the consequences.

Now isnt that a load of crap. If god gave us free will and saw us screw up time after time and seeing us constantly trying to exterminate one another why not get rid of that freedom? and if this is all part of his great master plan what kind of sick, twisted, sociopathic god are we worshiping and why?
When eagles kick their young out of the nest and watch them attempt to fly are they doing wrong?

When your parents asked you to leave your house was it because they didn't love you anymore and were sociopathic?
actually yes :) not really of course I just think that if god wants us all to hate and kill one another why not just save us the trouble and wipe us out with his ominipotent I can kill everything in the cosmos without even waving my hand powers? Or at least less us all die in a semi-interesting way like let us get invaded by aliens or zombies attack or something.
Or alternatively, give humans a world to live in that contains everything they need. Food, water, shelter, love, the sun, the moon the stars...

...if humans then fuck it up for themselves then do we really have a right to go running to god screaming about his non-existence if he doesn't just show and clean up the mess we made ourselves? Very bad reason to not believe in God.
 

mike1921

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cannot_aim said:
I wonder the same things but I go up to people I know who are religious and watch them squirm, I love that part.

But back on topic I dont really believe in a higher power and I know what religious people would say. They will either say:

1. That god moves in mysterious and incomprehensible ways.
or
2. That we were given free will by god and that we have to deal with the consequences.

Now isnt that a load of crap. If god gave us free will and saw us screw up time after time and seeing us constantly trying to exterminate one another why not get rid of that freedom? and if this is all part of his great master plan what kind of sick, twisted, sociopathic god are we worshiping and why?
Nah, I'd prefer to live with freedom than safety.
Although , I'd imagine god would be able to make some exceptions and kill the biggest assholes, like Hitler and the like. Unless God is such an awful parent he doesn't mind millions of his kids being slaughtered.
cuddly_tomato said:
cannot_aim said:
cuddly_tomato said:
cannot_aim said:
1. That god moves in mysterious and incomprehensible ways.
or
2. That we were given free will by god and that we have to deal with the consequences.

Now isnt that a load of crap. If god gave us free will and saw us screw up time after time and seeing us constantly trying to exterminate one another why not get rid of that freedom? and if this is all part of his great master plan what kind of sick, twisted, sociopathic god are we worshiping and why?
When eagles kick their young out of the nest and watch them attempt to fly are they doing wrong?

When your parents asked you to leave your house was it because they didn't love you anymore and were sociopathic?
actually yes :) not really of course I just think that if god wants us all to hate and kill one another why not just save us the trouble and wipe us out with his ominipotent I can kill everything in the cosmos without even waving my hand powers? Or at least less us all die in a semi-interesting way like let us get invaded by aliens or zombies attack or something.
Or alternatively, give humans a world to live in that contains everything they need. Food, water, shelter, love, the sun, the moon the stars...

...if humans then fuck it up for themselves then do we really have a right to go running to god screaming about his non-existence if he doesn't just show and clean up the mess we made ourselves? Very bad reason to not believe in God.
Yet again, you're not thinking about individuals. This isn't one kid breaking his toy, this is 10 kids breaking a toy that 100 could use.
 

Theguywithhat

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cannot_aim said:
cuddly_tomato said:
cannot_aim said:
1. That god moves in mysterious and incomprehensible ways.
or
2. That we were given free will by god and that we have to deal with the consequences.

Now isnt that a load of crap. If god gave us free will and saw us screw up time after time and seeing us constantly trying to exterminate one another why not get rid of that freedom? and if this is all part of his great master plan what kind of sick, twisted, sociopathic god are we worshiping and why?
When eagles kick their young out of the nest and watch them attempt to fly are they doing wrong?

When your parents asked you to leave your house was it because they didn't love you anymore and were sociopathic?
actually yes :) not really of course I just think that if god wants us all to hate and kill one another why not just save us the trouble and wipe us out with his ominipotent I can kill everything in the cosmos without even waving my hand powers? Or at least less us all die in a semi-interesting way like let us get invaded by aliens or zombies attack or something.
If an eagle kicked its young out of the nest and it fell to the ground and died, it would most likely try again. But you would think that after the fourth or fifth child died from the same mistake the eagle would figure out a different way to get the little baby chickies flying. (not saying that it works AT ALL like that but comparing it to what the other guy said about free will)
I can see this from both sides, but I just don't understand why god would watch his "children" murderously wrench each other apart and not step in and do something about it. I don't agree with having free will taken away that would suck ass but it's obvious that god IS the parent who sent their child away because he/she/it/whatever no longer cared for it.
 

Northpaw

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I haven't read through all six pages of this stuff, so hopefully I won't only say things that have already been said.

I guess first and foremost, the loving God argument. This is a tricky one that I don't believe anybody fully understands. My belief is God created everything and has a plan for everything (fate) that still allows for choice (free will).

Before anybody goes off to tell me this is a contradiction, it's not. If there's a snake in a glass case, and I put a mouse in there, everybody knows what will happen. The snake, whether immediately or when it gets hungry, will eat that mouse. By manipulating the situation (using a plan) but allowing the snake to choose what to do (not ramming the mouse down its throat) there exists both a certain fate and free will. I believe God manipulates circumstances so that we will react in a very exact way because he knows our hearts and minds completely. People will argue that this isn't total freedom, and they're right, but neither is it a total lack of freedom. Thus, both exist in a balance.

It's very confusing when you think of the enormity of it (whether you believe it or not) and I don't claim to understand everything. I don't know exactly why God allows things such as rape and murder to happen, but it's important to remember that God only allows it and certainly does not want it. Since God also allows us to be good to one another, it is therefore up to us to how we act. It's easy to fall into a trap of why there is such suffering caused by people, without also looking at how God uses other people for good. And when I say God uses people for good, this is most certainly not exclusive to people who believe in God, Christian or otherwise. (However, doing good works does not make somebody saved. I'll elaborate shortly.)

By giving people the choice to do good or bad, God is basically the same as a parent. Parents will only harm children by sheltering them too much, because then the child will not learn or otherwise grow as a person properly.

God is not only loving, but also just, which means that people have to be held accountable for laws broken. Any law broken is a choice made for one to separate himself from God. So ultimately, people choose to separate themselves from God. (And that's what hell is, an eternity separated from God.) Since breaking any one law at any time during life make somebody a sinner (sin in Greek meaning "missing the mark" like in archery, meaning anything short of perfection or goodness, basically). God knew that people would screw up, and the law was in place to let people know how they fell short. The law never saved anybody, it was faith.

Romans 4: 1-3

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about, but not before God. What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

The short version is that God planned to save all nations through the descendants of Abraham, the Jews, but at any time any other person could have faith in God and be saved. As an example: Rahab, a prostitute living in Jericho, showed a faith in God and hid Jewish spies from the king of Jericho. She is a direct ancestor of Jesus, though she was not a Jew herself.

Now then, since the Jews failed miserably in sharing God with other nations, God sent Jesus so that through him all nations might know God, giving the Holy Spirit freely to anyone who accepted it through baptism.

This is a very short version and contextually there's much more to it than this, but this explains what I believe spiritually and historically. I hope this helps give people an understanding. I'm willing to answer any comments or questions as well.
 

the1ringer

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cuddly_tomato said:
the1ringer said:
With this outlook I can give much more freely, because I am simply giving back to the rightful owner and who gave me everything I have anyway. If anything i think the Christian world view allows you to give more than most people do.
Not at all. There are many good Christians out there, but equally many good Buddhists, Muslims, atheists, and Eskimos. What allows some people to give more than others is their own level of altruism balanced with their level of greedy douchebaggery. I wouldn't even try making a case that such things are dependent on religion.

the1ringer said:
So you believe that nature gave us a conscience so we could evolve complex societies? Why do we need complex societies? You said yourself we are equal with animals and plants, but they don't need nations, boundaries, government or as far as we know, consciences to survive.
I mean equal in "life", not equal in "ability". There is a clear advantage in being social, ask any wolf. And having a conscience makes having larger and "less personal" social groups more possible.

The larger the group, the greater the ability to survive. In the distant past humans had some nasty enemies stalking them, worst of all was other humans.

the1ringer said:
I think you just changed your position on Scripture... before you implied it was definitely wrong. Now you say you think so? Do you have a particular reason you doubt Scripture?
Yep. The Bible is self contradictory and is extremely convoluted. I am not someone who thinks it is "evil" or anything... rather I think it is a mirror for the soul. An evil person will find evil there. A good person would see the good things. Because frankly it contains both. The Bible is not something that appeals to me personally though, and while I don't reject it, I find it just "doesn't work".

the1ringer said:
If I may respectfully pose another question: Why is it we can debate philosophy? Why is it we, as humans, have multiple religions, why is it we invent, why is it we craft art? Why can we be intelligent? Are these all absolutely necessary to survival? Is a soul, as you said you believe in, also necessary?
I believe a soul is necessary to define the difference between a living entity and a simple lump of non-living matter. What is the real difference between a tree and a rock? A tree lives.

As for the rest...? I believe that if any one being wanted us all to believe one particular thing, he or she would have made damn sure what that thing was. As the various religions and faiths of human history is not consistent with that, diversity is obviously being favoured by whatever driving forces are at hand, whether it's human creativity, an evolutionary advantage in religiousity, or supernatural entities bombing around making our lives difficult.

What the truth is, that is anyones guess.
You make accusations on Scripture such as its being convoluted, but I can hardly defend my beliefs when you make such a generic statement. I need examples if I am to help you with problems you have.

I don't think saying what you believe God would have done differs from reality is a valid objection. If you were God and you were perfect holy just infinitely wise and had all the attributes of God in Scripture you would have done the same thing God did, according to the Bible. So you can debate the reliability of the Bible but saying God did something wrong when you are a fallible human being is poor logic, as far as I can see.

Robinkom, if you have any specific passages of Scripture that make you think it is less than what it claims to be, please tell.
 

Spacelord

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the1ringer said:
Many, many, many things
First of all I'd like to say that - even though I only know all of you Escapists as merely avatars, false names, and many many written words - I'm profoundly proud that we've actually made a BIG bunch of progress in the way of understanding and tolerating another's opinions. Something that is, to my experience, unheard of online, if at all!

tl;dr: I love you guys in a heterosexual way.

Now, the1ringer: it's interesting that you're here because from what I've read from your posts (which isn't everything, so correct me if I'm rong) is that you're a christian with a very fundamentalist approach. If you take offense to that please substitute literalist with fundamentalist.

The reason I find this interesting is because from what I've read so far on these forums, most followers of christianity (as well as followers of plenty of other denominations) are quite moderate in their religious experiences: they meet the gamut of other forum members half way, if you will.

Your hesitant introduction to this thread included that you were an 'evangelical calvinistic christian', and you admitted as well that you weren't quite comfortable admitting that you were as much initially. You also stated that though you were quite put off by earlier comments on this forum, you finally felt comfortable enough to confess your denomination.

This is really weird for me, because just when we as Escapists finally found a base for mutual tolerance, you come along with a bit more of an extremist/literalist view. Part of me wants to grab you by the collar and shake you around and say "but we were doing so well!!!", but the prevailing sentiment is that this might be the next step.

So basically - and this is coming from quite the atheist - I'm trying to welcome you, and to tell you: please bear with us. You're probably going to catch a lot of flak for being so candid, and we won't all agree with you (I sure don't!), but you're doing well here, and given time you're sure to fit right in with the rest of the Escapists. :)

tl;dr: WELCOME TO THE ESCAPIST FORUMS :D :D :D


ps. Holy shit, I wrote a lot here.
 

cuddly_tomato

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the1ringer said:
You make accusations on Scripture such as its being convoluted, but I can hardly defend my beliefs when you make such a generic statement. I need examples if I am to help you with problems you have.

I don't think saying what you believe God would have done differs from reality is a valid objection. If you were God and you were perfect holy just infinitely wise and had all the attributes of God in Scripture you would have done the same thing God did, according to the Bible. So you can debate the reliability of the Bible but saying God did something wrong when you are a fallible human being is poor logic, as far as I can see.

Robinkom, if you have any specific passages of Scripture that make you think it is less than what it claims to be, please tell.
I suppose the closest thing I have to a religion is a non-theistic Pagan/Wiccan. As you can imagine, that means I have little time for some passages of the Bible. I found them convoluted whenever I read any of it. Besides, there are passages about animals being around just for the benefit of humans and about 'creation' and other such things aren't there? That contradicts my own belief systems. My own being radically different to yours. That isn't a failing of mine, nor of yours, but it is not your job to 'educate' me into Christianity. I am not 'wrong'.