Philosophy versus Science, the ultimate experiment.

[7moreDead_v1legacy]

You can be as certain of having free will as you can be certain of existing. When you choose something it's fairly obvious that you have chosen it... At least you as in, what you have become.

But how can you prove that that decision is anything other than the direct product of everything that makes us up, and hence not a 'choice' per se, but a pre-programmed result?

So what your saying is that we are kind of like an idling Car? Without something to push the buttons (so too speak) we've no ability to move or choose direction?

So you've got everything there to move and go about the place, but without the driver (driver being/giving your pre-programmed order/result (freewill?)) you have no choice.?...I even confused myself with that o.0 I cant be arsed deleting this now I have gone to far!

 

[Labyrinth]

So what your saying is that we are kind of like an idling Car? Without something to push the buttons (so too speak) we've no ability to move or choose direction?

So you've got everything there to move and go about the place, but without the driver (driver being/giving your pre-programmed order/result (freewill?)) you have no choice.?...I even confused myself with that o.0 I cant be arsed deleting this now I have gone to far!

What I'm saying is that we function as really (REALLY!) complex machines with many different layers of programming much of which runs without our knowledge. Hence the subconscious mind as opposed to the conscious one. We can no more deny the function of these mechanisms than we can spontaneously grow wings and fly. What it comes down to is degree, the difference between an instinctual decision and a moral one. An instinctual decision is pre-programmed such as the removal of a hand from a hot stove. A moral one, such as objecting to slavery, may also be seen as a result of social, ethical programming. Whether we have choice to follow that programming is also an issue of some contention. As I said before, we can't know for sure, and if we're happy with the delusion we have, does it matter?

 

[Synek]

I dont think the rats will do the same because you forgot one this and thats chaos.
Everything goes towards chaos , so the rat behavior will not be the same due to chaos (umpredictle nature).

 

[BlindTom]

I'm currently redrafting a novel i wrote on just this subject... Alternate History in which a guy in the 1930's gets posessed by Laplace's demon on a boat trip with various people who will be swept up in ensuing events, and debates how to save/punish etc them.

 

[Alex_P]

First you have to state a fact, (unless you count skynet from the terminator franchise) no company or scientists has ever made an AI with ability to create it's own patterns or change them by themself and therefore:

If a robot is given a task it will solve the problem the same way everytime assuming it "forgets" it has done it before. Another identical robot will also do it the exact same way.

Where do you get your facts?

We can create things that "create their own patterns" and "change by themselves", as you put it.

With an embodied AI, you really can't escape the fuzziness of its physical input, so copying one software brain into two robot bodies isn't going to create something that's "identical" to your exacting standards.

-- Alex

 

[ILPPendant]

I'm pretty sure a living organic entity is about as non-deterministic as they come so surely two clones would grow up differently even with identical stimuli.

So in other words, exactly what everyone else in this thread has already said.

 

[Xvito]

You can be as certain of having free will as you can be certain of existing. When you choose something it's fairly obvious that you have chosen it... At least you as in, what you have become.

But how can you prove that that decision is anything other than the direct product of everything that makes us up, and hence not a 'choice' per se, but a pre-programmed result?

It is made up of the same things that make us. Hence it is our choice. The question one has to ask is: What am I. Not : What is choice.

 

[Xvito]

That's not really proving that free will doesn't exist. We aren't ourselves, we are what we've become. Some things are obviously not like this, some things we are born with. But my point is that there is no you. Because of this, your actions aren't necessarily your actions but you still chose to make them...

Do we now? How can we tell? On that note, if we are content with our delusion of free will, does it matter anyway?

You can be as certain of having free will as you can be certain of existing. When you choose something it's fairly obvious that you have chosen it... At least you as in, what you have become.

Choice is an illusion. If you were to live your life over & over again, with no memory of the previous times, you would make the same choices each and every time.
So really, do you have choice? Or do you simply have a set path you will follow each & every time?

No I wouldn't... It's called Random Chance. Because unlike God, nature does play with dice.

 

[Labyrinth]

It is made up of the same things that make us. Hence it is our choice. The question one has to ask is: What am I. Not : What is choice.

If it's nothing but a direct result of who we are, then how is it choice?

 

[Xvito]

It is made up of the same things that make us. Hence it is our choice. The question one has to ask is: What am I. Not : What is choice.

If it's nothing but a direct result of who we are, then how is it choice?

What are you going to base your choices off if not from yourself?

 

[Xvito]

That's not really proving that free will doesn't exist. We aren't ourselves, we are what we've become. Some things are obviously not like this, some things we are born with. But my point is that there is no you. Because of this, your actions aren't necessarily your actions but you still chose to make them...

Do we now? How can we tell? On that note, if we are content with our delusion of free will, does it matter anyway?

You can be as certain of having free will as you can be certain of existing. When you choose something it's fairly obvious that you have chosen it... At least you as in, what you have become.

Choice is an illusion. If you were to live your life over & over again, with no memory of the previous times, you would make the same choices each and every time.
So really, do you have choice? Or do you simply have a set path you will follow each & every time?

No I wouldn't... It's called Random Chance. Because unlike God, nature does play with dice.

Your mind doesn't work with random chance.
If you were to pick either red or blue, you would pick the same each time if the situation was repeated and you were unaware of the past situations.
If you had to save either a group of doctors or your girlfriend, whichever choice you made, you would always make. There is nothing random about a persons decisions, well the large one's anyway, as you will always come to the same conclusion.

The same situations would not be repeated.

 

[Labyrinth]

What are you going to base your choices off if not from yourself?

My point is that it's not choice at all.

 

[bjj hero]

If you were to live your life over & over again, with no memory of the previous times, you would make the same choices each and every time.
So really, do you have choice? Or do you simply have a set path you will follow each & every time?

Wheres your evidence for this? If thats your opinion then say so, don't state it as fact. If you have evidence I'd be interested in reading it.

 

[bjj hero]

If you were to live your life over & over again, with no memory of the previous times, you would make the same choices each and every time.
So really, do you have choice? Or do you simply have a set path you will follow each & every time?

Wheres your evidence for this? If thats your opinion then say so, don't state it as fact. If you have evidence I'd be interested in reading it.

Common sense and a bit of thought says so.
If you were to live your life again, with everything being the same and no memory of a past life, why would your pattern of thoughts change?
If I decide to drunkenly drive home one night, in the exact same situation with no memory of the past, I'd do, somewhat blatantly obviously, exactly the same.
It's because of this you have no choice in life, just a set path which you will take every single time.

Common sense said the world was flat, that the sun moves around the earth and that no one could run a 4 minute mile. You can say you believe that but you don't know it and there is no evidence to support it.

 

[mdk31]

Fairly certain that the randomness inherent in the universe would lead to separate results.