Philosophy

[Jenny Creed]

Are measurable scientific achievements more important than happiness? How do you generate validity in your life? Is knowledge more important than imagination? There's some philosophy for ya.

Zen koans aren't valuable to the rational mind. Answering them doesn't get you any points. Searching for answers is the point. It's a whole other ballgame than science, and you'll have to adapt a mindset not based on science for it to begin to have any meaning.

Just throwing it out there.

 

[Adam Jenson]

Does the tree make a sound?

Of course it does. It screams in pain and its brothers and sisters scream with it. They mourn for their sibling and for the life she held within her branches, her trunk, her roots. A microcosm within the macrocosm. She grew throughout the centuries only to fall within seconds.

There is a sound when a tree falls but no one listens. Just the Forest.

 

[Chiasm]

Nicola Tesla > Friedrich Nietzsche
The key to becoming a better person is self-discipline, and the drive to make something more of yourself.

Just a thought.

You do know, That Nietzsche spoke about making something more of yourself right? How every human should seek knowledge as their end goal in life?

All Tesla did was go on about science and a bunch of other useless drivel when compared to a man as great as Nietzsche himself. I doubt very much Tesla ever gave hope to the hopeless and courage to the down trodden.

P.S Science is a useless tool of distraction to the human mind. It corrupts the ultimate destiny of every person, Which should be to acquire knowledge and spread it to others helping them. Not sitting around with your 1's and 0's.

 

[Sgt Doom]

Nicola Tesla > Friedrich Nietzsche
The key to becoming a better person is self-discipline, and the drive to make something more of yourself.

Just a thought.

You do know, That Nietzsche spoke about making something more of yourself right? How every human should seek knowledge as their end goal in life?

All Tesla did was go on about science and a bunch of other useless drivel when compared to a man as great as Nietzsche himself. I doubt very much Tesla ever gave hope to the hopeless and courage to the down trodden.

P.S Science is a useless tool of distraction to the human mind. It corrupts the ultimate destiny of every person, Which should be to acquire knowledge and spread it to others helping them. Not sitting around with your 1's and 0's.

Bah, if philosophy can create microwaveable pizzas then i'll be more than happy to convert.

 

[Rolling Thunder]

Nietsich also advocated mindless self-indulgent violence. Now, on a personal level I'm all for that, but I object to the idea of the majority of people indulging in it, as it would destroy society.

But Tesla did fuck-all.

 

[Seldon2639]

Are measurable scientific achievements more important than happiness? How do you generate validity in your life? Is knowledge more important than imagination? There's some philosophy for ya.

Zen koans aren't valuable to the rational mind. Answering them doesn't get you any points. Searching for answers is the point. It's a whole other ballgame than science, and you'll have to adapt a mindset not based on science for it to begin to have any meaning.

Just throwing it out there.

In fairness, that's one of the major differences between western and eastern philosophies. Neither is necessarily more correct (and it's mostly up to personal tastes). Science and rationalism aren't inherently connected. If one takes the arguments of the Voltaire (among others) to the logical conclusion, happiness born of ignorance isn't real happiness. But, I would argue that you're creating false dichotomies. Does science in and of itself remove happiness, or does it (at worst) change it? Do you have to prioritize knowledge or creativity, rather than holding them both as important parts of the same whole of intellect?

On the "how do you create validity", there's nothing generalizable. For me, it's a question of the influence I have on other people's lives. I don't believe in an afterlife, and thus hold that the most we can hope for is to have had an impact on the world (preferably a good one). Even if no one remembers my name, my mark on humanity will be made by how I change the people around me, and how they change the people around them, for better or worse.

All of that being said, Chiasm:

While we can go back and forth until the day we all die about whether an individual scientist was more or less useful to society than an individual philosopher, but it'd be an unending conflict. Does Newton beat Hume? How about Feynman versus Kierkegaard? But, if we're going to talk about whether philosophy or science is a more useful trade from a societal perspective, it's not cut and dry. First, we'd need to more accurately define the difference between a scientist (I'm including social scientists like economists and political scientists in this class) and philosopher. After we've done that, are we looking at the intent, or the result?

But, I'm a little confused. You say that science interferes with our "destinies" (which sounds a little more religious than Nietzsche would have approved of), but that our destinies are to disseminate knowledge. But what is the accumulation and dissemination of knowledge if not science?

 

[Jenny Creed]

Now, I wasn't particularly trying to contrast eastern and western thoughts with the first part of my post. Just opening up some generic questions. I don't really know how it went from that to the other thing about zen. It could probably have been more clear. Especially seeing as I barely understand what I wanted to say myself. . .

 

[Chiasm]

Bah, if philosophy can create microwaveable pizzas then i'll be more than happy to convert.

But whats better, microwaveable pizzas, Or homemade pizzas in a stone oven?

Nietsich also advocated mindless self-indulgent violence. Now, on a personal level I'm all for that, but I object to the idea of the majority of people indulging in it, as it would destroy society.

But Tesla did fuck-all.

Nietzsche urged knowledge through experience and action,But also filled his works with many pit falls that most minds would fall into to. Why reading Nietzsche is a life time of work in itself. Every rereading of every word gives you a better insight into his mind and what it means to be human.

That mindless self-indulgent violence is just one more layer with many more behind it.Unlike Hume or Plato or any of the small little "what is/if" ideas Nietzsche reached into the soul of what a human is and should be.

 

[Rock Avich]

Philosophy: The most wonderful thing ever.

Seriously, FIND me a more interesting topic. (Quantum Mechanics don't count.)

 

[AndyFromMonday]

what is the sound of a falling tree?

what exactly is reason?

people (i.e. YOU) often get fooled that there is a reason behind everything, and that logic dominates the universe. logic was conceived by the human mind. what we see is the world we perceive as logic, but we don't know. we can't know.

we see things through the eyes of humans. we cannot tell how a bird sees the world or how possible aliens see the universe. we can't tell how a sound of a falling tree sounds for a wildcat or how a dog feels after a dog whistle has been used. we can only see that through reactions that we interpret.

the world is subjective through every being's perception. a true objective reality only exists in abstract thought. if one were to acquire it for our world, then that would truly be a power worthy of a god.

Seriously? Logic does dominate the universe. Everything in this universe happens, has happened, and will happen because of rules. It's the ones we don't know about yet that confuse the hell out of us (the human race as a whole) and trick some people (i.e. YOU) into thinking that the universe doesn't operate on logic.

Beyond that, we can't KNOW how other beings are perceiving the universe, but what we can do is make educated guesses. fMRIs can tell us how similar our brain activity is to that of other beings when exposed to certain stimuli, and if they match ours pretty closely we can guess that they see it about like us. An organism's reactions are how that organism interacts with the rest of the world, so if it reacts in a certain way consistently, that implies that it is perceiving it in pretty much the same way as me. The interpretation really doesn't matter. End of story.


Now, on-topic: Yes. To beat a dead horse, the falling tree would create vibrations which may or may not be picked up by some organism's auditory sensory equipment. Doesn't matter.

Indeed, what you are saying here is true. Well said mate.

 

[iain62a]

Nicola Tesla > Friedrich Nietzsche
The key to becoming a better person is self-discipline, and the drive to make something more of yourself.

Just a thought.

You do know, That Nietzsche spoke about making something more of yourself right? How every human should seek knowledge as their end goal in life?

All Tesla did was go on about science and a bunch of other useless drivel when compared to a man as great as Nietzsche himself. I doubt very much Tesla ever gave hope to the hopeless and courage to the down trodden.

P.S Science is a useless tool of distraction to the human mind. It corrupts the ultimate destiny of every person, Which should be to acquire knowledge and spread it to others helping them. Not sitting around with your 1's and 0's.

First of all, I have a lot of respect for Nietzsche. He was a very intelligent man, and we can all learn a lot from his philosophy. You however, have turned him into a religion, and are worshipping him as your god. He was a human being, like you or me, no better or worse than anyone else.

I don't need anybody to give me hope or courage. I can find that strength within myself. I don't need others to help.

I have a lot more respect for the achievements of Nikola Tesla though, without his discoveries and inventions, we wouldn't have the internet, among other things that we consider neccesities. He was a genius, and almost completely insane. He was just a man too, it has to be remembered; same as Nietzsche, you and me.

Shall we run through some of the useless scientific drivel that Tesla made?
I think we should.
1. AC current - Without this, the national grid wouldn't be, and we wouldn't be having this
argument on the internet.
2. AC generators(Rotating magnetic field) - You need them to make AC
3. FM radio - Yep, radio too
4. Remote Control systems
5. Fluorescent lights - Pretty handy things
6. Spark Plugs - needed for petrol cars
7. Wireless energy transmission - We lost the secret of how to do this on his death, and we
still haven't figured it out.
8. The Tesla Coil(Obviously) - Used to make high voltage, low current, high frequency AC
power
9. Logic Gates - Necessary for advanced electronics, like computers
10. Voltage Multiplication circuitry - Again, necessary for advanced electronics
11. Dynamic Theory of Gravity
12. Polyphasic systems - needed to make efficient electric motors
13. He also theorised a death ray, although he never built it, in case it fell into the
wrong hands.

Tesla did fuck-all.

^^You were saying?^^

The list goes on, and there are better things to do than type out everything he made. You
get the idea anyway.

I find it terribly ironic that you're berating me for sitting about with my one's and zero's on a computer based on the two-state system. I don't think we have any particular destiny, apart from one that we give ourselves. Science built many of the things that you use every day like electricity, medicine etc.

For someone who says it's useless, you seem to use it quite a lot.

Science is all about acquiring knowledge, and then putting it into practise, and then helping others with it. Philosophy has its place, and it's a very useful place, but science is what's going to allow humanity to truly progress.

Bah, if philosophy can create microwaveable pizzas then i'll be more than happy to convert.

Good shout.

 

[MCJazz77]

Ok, I'm gonna throw my metaphorical "two-cents" into this conversation. I hate philosophy, I hate it to no end but not for the reasons some people hate it. Actually, let me rephrase, I don't hate philosophy itself, philosophy is very usefull to people to get through their lives, I hate philosophers and philisophical debates.

I hate philosophers for one very simple reason, they are unabashedly selfish! I mean come one people! You stick a bunch of exceedingly bright people in a room debating questions with no real answers! Who CARES if the tree actually makes a sound? Will it effect my life in any significant way whether it does or does not? Hell no! You may want to think it does but in the end what you perceive is all that matters. The philosophers sit around debating this and similar questions for hours all the while making no head-way while they could be out doing something useful! Hell, they'd be more useful and would contribute more if they were garbage truck workers. They sit around and waste their intellect and time on a question they can't answer cause they enjoy it? That seems selfish to me.

As for philosophical debates, what's the point. There truly is no right or wrong answer. It isn't like debating a fact or even religion. There is no even slightly provable answer, even if you want there to be one. And even if you could end up answering them, as I said before, does it matter? What you perceive is who you are so even if what you perceive is wrong does it matter? Will it effect your life if you know it's wrong and you can't change it? No! If anything it will make you go crazy because you KNOW it's wrong and there is nothing you can do about it!

 

[KingPiccolOwned]

Yes it will, it'll still cause vibrations in the air which will make sound, even though noone's there.

But what is sound if no one hears it? Maybe it only causes vibrations, but they don't become "sound" until they are heard. And truly, if no one hears it you can't really know. Maybe when there's a sound and absolutely no one is around, it makes some kind of wormhole that sucks the sound away? Obviously that probably doesn't happen, but the point is that if it's a situation that can't be proven, you can't be 100% sure.

A similar argument came up in computer engineering today. Basically things are "true" when the masses of the trusted sources (i.e. scientists in these days) believe something. But they could all be wrong. I mean, why does gravity "work" as a theory? Because people believe it does. Maybe we're just all horribly wrong, and there's some other reason. But we're right because more people believe it to be true than not.

Yes like with say smoking.
But to get off of the argument train, I think that the relavance of philosophy is dependant on its content. For instance I tend to perscribe to Plato's notion to question everything, especially the motives of others, and think of why something may be as to just leaving it up to some unseen bogeymen.

 

[Skeleon]

Considering ultrasound (sonography) can't be heard either (we need a computer to translate it into pictures) and it's still a form of sound (just ask a bat), not hearing the waves does not make it not be sound anymore!

So, yes, a tree falling in the forest still creates waves of vibration in the air and these are still sound. Even if no ear is around to catch those vibrations and translate them into our interpretation of sound. Since that's all our brain does: Create an interpretation of what we heard in our brain.

Sound itself is very real. If anything, our interpretation of it is not.

 

[JimmieDean]

How did the tree fall down?

I'm a lumberjack, and I'm ok! I sleep all night and I work all day!

Yes it will, it'll still cause vibrations in the air which will make sound, even though noone's there.

But what is sound if no one hears it? Maybe it only causes vibrations, but they don't become "sound" until they are heard. And truly, if no one hears it you can't really know. Maybe when there's a sound and absolutely no one is around, it makes some kind of wormhole that sucks the sound away? Obviously that probably doesn't happen, but the point is that if it's a situation that can't be proven, you can't be 100% sure.

Does the light in your fridge come off when you close the door? Yes it does.
It's logical that the tree will make sound, because based on all the other times a tree has fallen, the sound of a falling tree would occur, therefore, it's reasonable to assume that it would make a sound even if noone's there.

Words like logical and reasonable are just words to make an arguement sound more credible. When the whole point of philosophy is that there are questions that can not be answered.. that there is no "truth". Just because logic says everytime I'm around and a tree falls it makes noise so therefore when I'm not there it must as well... but that isn't fact or truth. There is no fact or truth. Logic and reasonable probability doesn't prove anything. That is the point. Experience + Logic =/= Fact.

 

[JimmieDean]

Ok, I'm gonna throw my metaphorical "two-cents" into this conversation. I hate philosophy, I hate it to no end but not for the reasons some people hate it. Actually, let me rephrase, I don't hate philosophy itself, philosophy is very usefull to people to get through their lives, I hate philosophers and philisophical debates.

I hate philosophers for one very simple reason, they are unabashedly selfish! I mean come one people! You stick a bunch of exceedingly bright people in a room debating questions with no real answers! Who CARES if the tree actually makes a sound? Will it effect my life in any significant way whether it does or does not? Hell no! You may want to think it does but in the end what you perceive is all that matters. The philosophers sit around debating this and similar questions for hours all the while making no head-way while they could be out doing something useful! Hell, they'd be more useful and would contribute more if they were garbage truck workers. They sit around and waste their intellect and time on a question they can't answer cause they enjoy it? That seems selfish to me.

As for philosophical debates, what's the point. There truly is no right or wrong answer. It isn't like debating a fact or even religion. There is no even slightly provable answer, even if you want there to be one. And even if you could end up answering them, as I said before, does it matter? What you perceive is who you are so even if what you perceive is wrong does it matter? Will it effect your life if you know it's wrong and you can't change it? No! If anything it will make you go crazy because you KNOW it's wrong and there is nothing you can do about it!

There is a point.. to open one's mind and self to all possibilities and ideas. Remember without Philosophy we would not have science. Philosophy is a good tool and brings people closer to wisdom and acceptance of all people and ideas that are not their own experience.

 

[JimmieDean]

Bah, if philosophy can create microwaveable pizzas then i'll be more than happy to convert.

But whats better, microwaveable pizzas, Or homemade pizzas in a stone oven?

Nietsich also advocated mindless self-indulgent violence. Now, on a personal level I'm all for that, but I object to the idea of the majority of people indulging in it, as it would destroy society.

But Tesla did fuck-all.

Nietzsche urged knowledge through experience and action,But also filled his works with many pit falls that most minds would fall into to. Why reading Nietzsche is a life time of work in itself. Every rereading of every word gives you a better insight into his mind and what it means to be human.

That mindless self-indulgent violence is just one more layer with many more behind it.Unlike Hume or Plato or any of the small little "what is/if" ideas Nietzsche reached into the soul of what a human is and should be.

You my friend have not studied Plato. To say that Plato was a "little what is/if" philosopher is insane. Plato spoke deeply about the soul of man and the origins of belief and perception. About the ideas of beauty, heat, love, etc.. and the way we perceive all things and why.

I suggest re-reading.