Pillars of Eternity has "Gone Gold" :-)

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

This is very encouraging! Thank you both! I honestly wouldn't have paid this any mind had KingsGambit not made this thread, and the game looks fantastic. I haven't played a dungeon crawler since Torchlight, and before that, Diablo 2. Looking forward to this now.

I'm glad you're interested in what's looking to be a great, epic RPG. But it's not like Torchlight/D2 particularly. While there will inevitably be some crawling thru dungeons (including "The Endless Paths of Od Nua [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/119909-Project-Eternity-Unveils-Mega-Dungeon]", the project's last stretch goal; a multi-tiered dungeon that grew as more pledges came in...I believe it reached 13 levels in the end!), and it will contain axes and swords with which to hack and slash, it's not a dungeon crawling, hack n' slash like D2. It's closer to Dragon Age: Origins or Divinity: Original Sin insofar as its an epic, SP RPG with twelve classes, NPCs who will join the party of up to six members. Combat is "psuedo real-time" where numbers are rolled behind the scenes for hits, glancing hits, misses, damage done, status effects etc. It is pausable so we can issue commands to party members, reposition them, etc. Presumably the harder the difficulty, the more tactical combat will become, requiring judicious use of pause, tho it can be played out in real time without pausing.

 

[Amaror]

Btw. The embargo on videos was lifted so we just a slew of youtube videos out there. Granted some of them show barely more than the character creation, since it's pretty massive, but there are allready a few follow up videos up.
From what i have seen so far it looks pretty great.
The dialogue is good, the environments are beautifull, the combat looks fun and everything looks very polished. There seems to be a LOT of additionaly options based on your character's traits which seem to be able to influence things quite a bit.
As an Example:

Spoiler

A companion was being threatened by an enemy. While one player managed to get the companion out of the situation without a scratch, another one had the companion get seriously hurt and suffer an injury which incurred a stat penalty.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

Btw. The embargo on videos was lifted so we just a slew of youtube videos out there. Granted some of them show barely more than the character creation, since it's pretty massive, but there are allready a few follow up videos up.
From what i have seen so far it looks pretty great.
The dialogue is good, the environments are beautifull, the combat looks fun and everything looks very polished. There seems to be a LOT of additionaly options based on your character's traits which seem to be able to influence things quite a bit.
As an Example:

Spoiler

A companion was being threatened by an enemy. While one player managed to get the companion out of the situation without a scratch, another one had the companion get seriously hurt and suffer an injury which incurred a stat penalty.

That all sounds very cool! One would hope it is polished...they pushed it back like two or three times for the express purpose of buffing it till it shines I'm very happy that that is the case...would much rather the extra polish and attention to detail and a delay, than a rushed release resulting in a buggy game (KotOR2, Alpha Protocol). Glad to hear there is a lot of things using our character's unique traits...makes for lots of replayability.

Don't want to see any gameplay videos tho. Will see that for myself on Thurs!

 

[BillTheConqueror]

Are they not releasing the keys for the game until Thursday? I was a Kickstarter backer and have my pledge registered on their site but do not see a place for a key anywhere yet; didn't know if there was a preload type of deal or anything.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

Are they not releasing the keys for the game until Thursday? I was a Kickstarter backer and have my pledge registered on their site but do not see a place for a key anywhere yet; didn't know if there was a preload type of deal or anything.

saw it in a thread on their site, as long as you confirmed your pledge via their backer portal (a.k.a. pillars of eternity site, which it sounds like you did.) then the key should be released to your account, I think via "my products" tab in your account. Mine isn't released yet either, but one of the developer admin's did say that hopefully today or tomorrow it'll be released, they are handing those ones out directly to backers so whenever obsidian is ready they should be released.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

Are they not releasing the keys for the game until Thursday? I was a Kickstarter backer and have my pledge registered on their site but do not see a place for a key anywhere yet; didn't know if there was a preload type of deal or anything.

saw it in a thread on their site, as long as you confirmed your pledge via their backer portal (a.k.a. pillars of eternity site, which it sounds like you did.) then the key should be released to your account, I think via "my products" tab in your account. Mine isn't released yet either, but one of the developer admin's did say that hopefully today or tomorrow it'll be released, they are handing those ones out directly to backers so whenever obsidian is ready they should be released.

Thanks for this info. I was starting to get quite antsy too, logged in and clicking around, Googling this and that to no avail. I also managed to convince myself today was Wednesday and that I'd be installing the game in a few hours!

So another day and 5 hours and hopefully sometime it'll release our keys TBH, I'm not sure why they aren't already considering that currently it can be bought on Steam (and could be for several days now). If non-backers can get a key via purchase, they must be *out there* so to speak.

Bah, impatience. I preorder things so seldom and of those few that I do, I don't get this feeling. It's quite nice in a way, to be excited and anxious about a forthcoming release, but I don't like waiting.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

Are they not releasing the keys for the game until Thursday? I was a Kickstarter backer and have my pledge registered on their site but do not see a place for a key anywhere yet; didn't know if there was a preload type of deal or anything.

saw it in a thread on their site, as long as you confirmed your pledge via their backer portal (a.k.a. pillars of eternity site, which it sounds like you did.) then the key should be released to your account, I think via "my products" tab in your account. Mine isn't released yet either, but one of the developer admin's did say that hopefully today or tomorrow it'll be released, they are handing those ones out directly to backers so whenever obsidian is ready they should be released.

Thanks for this info. I was starting to get quite antsy too, logged in and clicking around, Googling this and that to no avail. I also managed to convince myself today was Wednesday and that I'd be installing the game in a few hours!

So another day and 5 hours and hopefully sometime it'll release our keys TBH, I'm not sure why they aren't already considering that currently it can be bought on Steam (and could be for several days now). If non-backers can get a key via purchase, they must be *out there* so to speak.

Bah, impatience. I preorder things so seldom and of those few that I do, I don't get this feeling. It's quite nice in a way, to be excited and anxious about a forthcoming release, but I don't like waiting.

yepp, had to do some google-fu before I came upon that exact thread, it honestly was a bit surprising how little was mentioned on such a big thing.

I've been reading up on the kotaku preview/first impressions, and man it's getting me much more excited than I thought it would, I haven't felt like a giddy schoolgirl over a game in nearly a decade, so hopefully this is a game I can sink my teeth into for weeks.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

snip.

snip snip.

slight update: they are having "scheduled downtime" on their website, so perhaps after that, we'll get our keys? One can hope.

 

[beastro]

So far the classes/races are underwhelming especially given how much they've focused on preventing bad builds and forcing people to restart their game half way through.

 

[The Madman]

So far the classes/races are underwhelming especially given how much they've focused on preventing bad builds and forcing people to restart their game half way through.

How so? I haven't played the game yet obviously, but as someone who's been following the games development and is looking forward to playing the game come Thursday the classes look pretty neat and distinctive to me. I also really like what they've done with the stats in order to ensure they're all useful to every class, even if there are still obviously going to be preferred ones.

My first character is probably going to be a chanter for example just because the idea of their class is so novel. You setup a series of chants for your character to sing as they fight that provide group-wide buffs and which allow you, after you've sung enough, to unleash a devastating follow up invocation with a more direct combat effect. That's awesome! Never seen a mechanic like that used in an rpg before and I love how the names of the 'spells' are all lyrics and hymn your character is presumably singing out loud as they fight.

The Cipher class also looks really neat, a sort of psychic attack rogue, and the monk mechanic is nifty as well given how they rely on taking damage to deal damage. The barbarian enrage ability where your character gets a powerful damage buff but their health becomes hidden to the player is also really novel. Sure you're doing more damage but your character is so blinded by rage that there's no way of telling till they either win, collapse unconscious, or calm down how hurt they're becoming. Nifty!

The the mage class having multiple spell books and how the paladin class is tied to roleplaying are interesting as well, so even the more traditional rpg classes have something new and novel to them.

For those who are curious by the way there's a pretty in-depth view of the character creation here:


I also dig how every race has a sub-race that can have all sorts of effects, including visuals ones. Hell, I'll admit it, I'm just generally really excited for this. I backed the game when it was on kickstarter and the dev feedback and backer updates have only made me more optimistic as time went on. It might not end up being a game for everyone, in fact it most certainly wont be, but for me it's looking increasingly amazing!

 

[StatusNil]

My first character is probably going to be a chanter for example just because the idea of their class is so novel. You setup a series of chants for your character to sing as they fight that provide group-wide buffs and which allow you, after you've sung enough, to unleash a devastating follow up invocation with a more direct combat effect. That's awesome! Never seen a mechanic like that used in an rpg before and I love how the names of the 'spells' are all lyrics and hymn your character is presumably singing out loud as they fight.

Well, there was the Bard's Tale series, in which the character class "bard" does the Magic Song thing. Waaay back in 1980s, AKA The Good Old Days. Everything old is new again.

And funnily enough, Brian Fargo of InXile (who was involved in the creation of the originals) is apparently talking about wanting to Kickstart Bard's Tale IV. Now, if that is going to be a true sequel, I hope Mr. Fargo takes it into account that MUH D00DS were made into gods at the end of Bard's Tale III. That should quite obviously be reflected in teh sequel! Perhaps in the manner of... uh, what Godus was supposed to do. (What do you mean "a truly terrible idea"?)

OT: I'm actually a little trepidatious now that it's about to be released. Been 2.5 years since I literally bought into the idea of its awesomeness. And now it's time to see how that idea holds up.

 

[beastro]

How so? I haven't played the game yet obviously, but as someone who's been following the games development and is looking forward to playing the game come Thursday the classes look pretty neat and distinctive to me. I also really like what they've done with the stats in order to ensure they're all useful to every class, even if there are still obviously going to be preferred ones.

There's nothing all that "godlike" about godlike, with their go abilities being of limited value save for the Moon, but it doesn't stand all that out. Fire and Nature are very limited due to working on low health and the Death doesn't really stand out all that much, though got a boost lately.

Compare that to the Aumaua and Orlan abilities that can be very useful while the rest you can take or leave without much consequence.

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/71297-godlike-pointless/

For Pally's: https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/71286-paladins-support-only/

Stat dumping due to the limited impact some play: https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68166-are-there-reasons-not-to-dump-an-attribute-entirely/?hl=sensuki

The main one I have in mind by Sensuki, who's really the main guy picking this game apart and has for quite some time: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68526-how-to-fix-the-attribute-design-in-pillars-of-eternity/

Greetings, all. Today we?re going to talk about the Attribute system in Pillars of Eternity. Traditionally, CRPGs have suffered from certain issues with character attributes that PoE?s Lead Designer, Josh Sawyer, believes detract from the character creation and gameplay experience ? namely, the problem of certain classes being pigeonholed into pumping certain attributes to function properly, and the existence of dump stats. To that end, the attribute system in Pillars of Eternity is designed with a few fundamental design goals in mind:

All attributes should be useful (in some way) for every class.
No dump stats ? that is, no stat should be overwhelmingly better or worse than the others.

These design goals aim to fix some systemic problems with the traditional D&D-based attribute systems. These design goals are admirable and worthwhile, and we believe that if realized, they will make Pillars of Eternity a richer and more rewarding experience. Unfortunately, the current attribute system fails to meet these goals. In particular, Perception and Resolve are simultaneously not useful for all classes/character archetypes, and are also very widely considered to be dump stats in most cases. However, this can be fixed. I (Sensuki) came up with a solution about two weeks ago and after many days consulting with Matt516 on the mathematical, logical, and balance issues with this solution, we have produced this paper.



https://dl.dropboxus...bute_Rework.pdf

His channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLDoful0qkygJxzwo7UC-gQ

You link Quill's vid, which I have watched and paid attention to, but he's new to this (albeit digging into the nuances more than most - compare to the usually in depth Arumba who dissected Skylines to bits, but just jumped into this game.. and wound up pretty much making the same Lat'S play as Quill).

TBH, I really dislike the "no bad build" idea. It restricts in different ways than what they sought to correct, and above all, prevents unbalanced builds which are the fun of these games.

Note about the last bit: I'm not a DnD or IE lover and am fair bit outside of that circle, however I loved Everquest to death and at it's heart it was a DnD game where in early release you could really messed up your character and many did such as casters putting all their starter stats into strength to carry more when as much should go into Intelligence as possible to max mana early and ignore strength entirely (I personally went 25 INt, 5 Str for casters except for Necros and Shamans which could use the extra 5 points into Stamina for their HP to mana spells.

My first character is probably going to be a chanter for example just because the idea of their class is so novel. You setup a series of chants for your character to sing as they fight that provide group-wide buffs and which allow you, after you've sung enough, to unleash a devastating follow up invocation with a more direct combat effect. That's awesome! Never seen a mechanic like that used in an rpg before and I love how the names of the 'spells' are all lyrics and hymn your character is presumably singing out loud as they fight.

They're pretty much Everquest Bards (which ticks me off since most EQ classes are in this with the Necro/Shadowknight being a massive hole) who twisted songs that lasted only a few second, but could be more powerful that caster spells in ways, especially since many cost little to no mana. The downside was massive micromanagement and a unique class system that was programmed into the game almost randomly and is so complex modern emu developers can't crack it.

Bards could usually twist two songs without any player input, but since you could start a new song before one would wear off you could manage to eek out a third and, iirc, good players could do a fourth.

Again, both Bard and Chanter here have their roots in DnD, and damn I wish I could be a Necro or SK. When it comes down to it, Pallies are just buff bitches that have very limited offence and only do big DPS if they focus almost entirely on that at the expense of their support abilities while Barbs fill something of the role I have in mind, I just dislike the aesthetic of them and their skills. I love EQ Necros/SKs for their high offence, life leeching and huge survivability, evil bent which the Bleak Walker Pallies in PoE may seem to be at first glance but are really just inflexibly focused on their ideology that they're assholes.

 

[Slorgn]

Nice thread, but if OP is a superb writing, past constantly shows again and again that it is providing solid lessons. Obsidian always been used to release games with a higher amount of bugs than the average. Moreover the game has ambitions, this is meaning a complexity level that will trigger more bugs. It's hardly a small publisher like Paradox that will change that.

So gold release is just a word, and it makes sense because the game will have a physical distribution. But don't put your expectations at release too high, the game will have many bugs at release, including some game breaking bugs, problems of balance, quests broken, incoherent dialogs chains, more.

The second point is the old school approach is nothing new on multiple layers:
- Firstly old school RPG with a big budget and fans funded already been released, Divinity Original Sin, Wasteland 2, Shadowrun Dragonfall Director's Cut, perhaps few more I don't remind.
- The second point is Dragon Age Origin already tried real time party RPG and it never worked as well than in Balgur's Gate or Icewind Dale series.

About the second point my opinion is the difficulty comes from the evolution of characters design. Nowadays it's bizarre to have some fighter character with just some buffer, a main attack and eventually a secondary action with a cooldown of some limiting mechanism. But that design weakness was why games as Baldur's Gate series, or Icewind Dale series was working roughly well with party real time with pause. You hadn't to constantly control 6 characters, or rely on some AI managing most characters of your party. DAO shown the evolution and how it doesn't work as well than it did. I don't see how Pillars could solve this base problem. Still waiting the game and have good hope about it, but I don't except it have so good combats, in my opinion, party RPG with real time with pause is an obsolete design.

 

[The Madman]

Well, there was the Bard's Tale series, in which the character class "bard" does the Magic Song thing. Waaay back in 1980s, AKA The Good Old Days. Everything old is new again.

Never actually played Bard's Tale, much to my eternal shame since it's always looked like something I'd enjoy. Sadly it's pretty much become a staple of my 'series I need to get around to playing' list.

Interesting to hear it's comparable though.

There's nothing all that "godlike" about godlike, with their go abilities being of limited value save for the Moon, but it doesn't stand all that out. Fire and Nature are very limited due to working on low health and the Death doesn't really stand out all that much, though got a boost lately.

See I thought it was quite the opposite, not only are the godlike weird and cool as hell looking, but their unique abilities are also pretty damned nifty. The fire ones for example growing 'hotter' as they take damage is a very cool idea even if in terms of min/maxing it's probably not terribly useful. Mostly though I'd be tempted to try one out just for the inevitable novelty of some of the dialogue you're sure to get playing as a godlike, the individual race perks are just icing on top.

And really I think that right there is where you and I most disagree. I'm not particularly concerned about the balancing or min/maxiness of the classes, I'm more just interested in what sounds like a novel concept and what could be fun to play, which to me at least PoE certainly does.

For example the link you give for paladins seems to be mostly people arguing about paladins effectiveness in dealing damage in combat, whereas my first thoughts on reading about the class were "Oh cool, so it encourages roleplaying with gameplay incentives? Neat!". I also couldn't care less about the paladins effectiveness as a soloing class because, well, why would I ever want to play one of these sorts of games solo? Interacting with your companions is half the fun, in which case having the paladin as a supporting class works just fine. I've got a number of other characters I'll me micro-managing in every battle anyway.

Same story with the other links you provided, including the Sensuki post. It's mostly debating and arguing the minutia of gameplay balance which is simply not something I care about, whereas the idea of something like the Chanter class's novel take on spellcasting really intrigues me. The way stats in PoE work also intrigues me just because while it might not be perfectly balanced, it at least isn't like D&D's notorious penchant for dump-stats where some stats like charisma are just outright completely useless to certain classes save for roleplaying reasons. With PoE from what I've read they're just as useful for roleplay reasons with a fair number of dialogue checks, but also provide something tangible for the players character gameplay-wise as well, even if it isn't always terribly much.

It's also kinda weird that you're a proponent of the games ability to make 'bad builds' but also link to a massive post that debates the stat balance in order to ensure everything is equally useful to everyone.

In any case I think it's interesting and I'm looking forward to playing PoE. Frankly even if I thought the combat looked shit and the classes dull (Which I don't thankfully) I'd still be interested in playing it for the simple reasons that such elements are rarely my favourite part of an rpg. Planescape: Torment had crap combat after all and I thought it was great, meanwhile Kotor 2 is one of my recent favourite rpg for roleplaying reasons and that a number of the people who made that AND Mask of the Betrayer are working on this is sure to have my attention.

I like the idea of how souls are manipulated in this setting and I'm intrigued how it's going to tie into the games story.

Nice thread, but if OP is a superb writing, past constantly shows again and again that it is providing solid lessons. Obsidian always been used to release games with a higher amount of bugs than the average. Moreover the game has ambitions, this is meaning a complexity level that will trigger more bugs. It's hardly a small publisher like Paradox that will change that.

The last two games Obsidian released; Dungeon Siege 3 and Stick of Truth, were relatively bug free.

I don't doubt the game will likely have some bugs on launch but I think you might be over-dramatizing things a bit here.

 

[Slorgn]

You seem quite negative about Pillars, but in my opinion it's a lot too soon for a game not released and that you never played. It's not that easy to build a real opinion on base of trailers. Moreover chain only negative points is bizarre.

I think that party RPG with real time and active pause system is an obsolete design. But I firmly hope it won't mean crap combats for Pillars. I'm playing Arcanum and it could have many good points but the combats are a total crap and I don't think I'll be able play it much more without to die from boredom.

 

[Slorgn]

Madman: You seem quite negative about Pillars, but in my opinion it's a lot too soon for a game not released and that you never played. It's not that easy to build a real opinion on base of trailers. Moreover chain only negative points is bizarre.

I think that party RPG with real time and active pause system is an obsolete design. But I firmly hope it won't mean crap combats for Pillars. I'm playing Arcanum and it could have many good points but the combats are a total crap and I don't think I'll be able play it much more without to die from boredom.

The last two games Obsidian released; Dungeon Siege 3 and Stick of Truth, were relatively bug free.

I don't doubt the game will likely have some bugs on launch but I think you might be over-dramatizing things a bit here.

Dungeon Siege 3 is simple linear game, I found it fun but it's not at range of more complex games. Never played Stick of Truth so I can't comment.

Well perhaps I anticipate more problems than there will be, we will see soon.

 

[beastro]

See I thought it was quite the opposite, not only are the godlike weird and cool as hell looking, but their unique abilities are also pretty damned nifty. The fire ones for example growing 'hotter' as they take damage is a very cool idea even if in terms of min/maxing it's probably not terribly useful. Mostly though I'd be tempted to try one out just for the inevitable novelty of some of the dialogue you're sure to get playing as a godlike, the individual race perks are just icing on top.

The issue for me is my hatred for buffs tied to low health. As a lover of Trolls it kept me from picking one at WoW release and that kept my from the awesome albino raptor mount, all the while I kept seeing guildie Trolls try to play with their racial only to get dropped like a stone until they learned to just ignore it (no idea if it was better used later on, I quit after 6 months when PvP was sucked out of the world and shoved into Battlegrounds).

I'm not a min/maxer in the least, my tension headaches and childhood loathing of math keep me from doing that and I'm too casual to do it even if they weren't in my way, I just don't like when a good hunk of class/race choices are underwhelming and make me feel either not unique or not powerful. When Orlan get crits or good defence and the Aumaua get stun resist or as third weapon set while everyone else is passable, even the ones that give up an item slot, I feel like it's a lot of shuffling and game design without much coming out of it.

This is where I wish the game were imbalanced and it harkens back to Everquest where almost all classes had their niche, most in group PvE, while Druids, Necros and a few others were solid soloers. Even if a class wasn't great (at the time at least, there was always the constant patch turnover that overtime that buffed weak classes into the new OP ones... expect for Necros, they were and are insanely powerful) they were unique enough and strong enough to stand out - case in point with Pallys in EQ, they were focused early in the game history on stuns and such even if their DPS was crap, they could hold aggro very well spamming them, as could SKs with their dots and had very important utility spells most melees lacked like invisibility and were only one of three classes that could feign death, even if they were the worst at it.

I don't see enough variety in this game to really want to mess around with all and that's exacerbated by the really strong ones like Chanter, Cipher and Druids being unappealing to my pure melee/light support and Necro affinity.

I will still play the game a bunch, and I will pick a Death godlike on a second play, I want try a Barb Elf more for RP reasons that are balanced with a decent armoured dps melee, I just wish the others were more desirable for more than their neat head graphics (or in the case of Nature, nothing at all - sorry, never been a fan of the living tree look)

For example the link you give for paladins seems to be mostly people arguing about paladins effectiveness in dealing damage in combat, whereas my first thoughts on reading about the class were "Oh cool, so it encourages roleplaying with gameplay incentives? Neat!".

I don't like support classes without at least a good side focus elsewhere, be it healing or dps. This comes from playing a Druid in Classic Everquest where we could solo well with a very limited range of spells, had great utility, but were useless in raids besides porting people to them and tagging along getting gear because we were guildies but not really starting out as contributing much to deserve it.

Instead every other class had some niche and shone, if not for being great, but for being unique. By the time this sank in, given the games level arch back then, it was years too late to reroll and my deserve to play couldn't stand it even if the game allowed it.

Since then I've always wanted to be classes that contribute something, mainly dps in a melee focus (outside of Necros I now loath pure casters and wish more games had hybrids, I don't think I could have played Dragon Age Origins without the Arcane Mage since Mage Mage was a pure caster and the two melee archtypes paled in comparison to the mage in classic RPG fashion and I found Wynn or Morrigan being the "leader" of a group while my main guy tagged along as a support). For this game my first pick was to be a Pally until I found out they either go full defence and support spells and you send them in to main tank, absorbing damage while doing very little or give up a lot to flesh out their fire spell which still doesn't stand out compared to other melee classes (this adds to my further hatred of Druids since PoE is the WoW kind which are both very very flexible with their morphs allowing them to be both melees and heavy casters with very little penalty).

 

[The Madman]

Madman: You seem quite negative about Pillars, but in my opinion it's a lot too soon for a game not released and that you never played. It's not that easy to build a real opinion on base of trailers. Moreover chain only negative points is bizarre.

I think that party RPG with real time and active pause system is an obsolete design. But I firmly hope it won't mean crap combats for Pillars. I'm playing Arcanum and it could have many good points but the combats are a total crap and I don't think I'll be able play it much more without to die from boredom.

Negative? And here I thought if anything I was letting myself get a wee bit too fanboyish for this game. I'm not ashamed to admit I'm pretty excited about Pillars of Eternity.

And what else can I say except that I disagree with you about real-time w/ pause gameplay? I loved it in the old Infinity Engine games, I've loved it in a handful of games released since (Temple of Elemental Evil for life yo, best D&D combat in a game ever!), and I look forward to seeing it again in the future including with Pillars of Eternity.

I'm also pretty damned fond of Arcanum seeing as I've played the game to completion twice now. Guess we just have different interests in gaming, no shame there.

I'm not a min/maxer in the least, my tension headaches and childhood loathing of math keep me from doing that and I'm too casual to do it even if they weren't in my way, I just don't like when a good hunk of class/race choices are underwhelming and make me feel either not unique or not powerful. When Orlan get crits or good defence and the Aumaua get stun resist or as third weapon set while everyone else is passable, even the ones that give up an item slot, I feel like it's a lot of shuffling and game design without much coming out of it.

See, I would think the novelty of being able to play as a short fuzzy guy or some Avatar lookin' blue gal would be unique in and of itself even without some added gameplay ability. I also think Cipher's and Chanters look novel as hell to play as (Not super keen on the druid, but then I never have been in any druid incarnation) and as mentioned before will probably be trying Chanter as my first class. But again as with the poster above I think we might just have different priorities with these sorts of things. It happens.

 

[beastro]

See, I would think the novelty of being able to play as a short fuzzy guy or some Avatar lookin' blue gal would be unique in and of itself even without some added gameplay ability. I also think Cipher's and Chanters look novel as hell to play as (Not super keen on the druid, but then I never have been in any druid incarnation) and as mentioned before will probably be trying Chanter as my first class. But again as with the poster above I think we might just have different priorities with these sorts of things. It happens.

I need more than the Rule of Cool to get me into a class of race. Maybe this is showing me being a cRPG fan who never got people's love of board games and such like DnD when so much left to the imagination that there weren't hard rules when you had someone be a GM that could alter whatever they wished. I've always loved practical, grounded solid rules in a built world like Tolkien's than DnD where math and dice fill the meat of the mechanic side while you're at another persons whim for the world that could change unrealistically (unrealistic in this case not being like reality so much grounded in the rules of the world - the anathema being Star Trek's ungrounded technobabble saving the cast this week from an ungrounded technobabble danger).

I'd rather have some real semblance of power to back it up. If the only long term appeal for godlike are their strange heads, then I find that a terrible gimmick that needs patching.

 

[beastro]

I'm also pretty damned fond of Arcanum seeing as I've played the game to completion twice now. Guess we just have different interests in gaming, no shame there.

Arcanum has so much potential and a awesome world, I hope they return to it and do it justice.

What it suffered from was incomplete world building, too much history and not enough physically fleshed out in the world. It feels like half the game is centered around 1/4 of the world map and most of that is one massive city that leaves the rest of the world "unnaturally" bare that reminds you that you're in a game and that it was most likely left very incomplete (which looking back is a early taste of Obsidian's crews overly ambitious aims).