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Emeli

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If there's that kind of loophole in the law, then its the law that needs to be looked at, not the people following it.

I'm against illegal downloading on principal, since I think the gaming industry should be supported wherever possible, but I don't think these guys should have been prosecuted. It is (as far as I know) still legal to download backup copies of games, which means that they have a legitimate purpose, and I really don't see how they broke the law.
 

santaandy

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SmilingKitsune said:
On topic, like many here at the escapist I'm against the illegal downloading of games, you see games are expensive to develop, they take time to develop and if we just download them for nothing, the developers who have poured so much time and resources into the games, are left out in the cold.
Well, games are expensive to purchase, and if I buy a bad game, then I'm out all the time and money I spent on it. I'm not saying unlicensed downloading is the answer, but your reasoning for being against it is flawed. It's not my job to support the developers; it's their job to entertain me. If they fail, the deserve to be left out in the cold. If anyone else did their job badly, they'd be fired or the company would go out of business. Fitting punishments, I say. The entertainment industry needs to realize that they have to play by the same rules and get used to it. It's only fair.
 

iain62a

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Ragdrazi said:
iain62a said:
Ragdrazi said:
iain62a said:
Joos said:
iain62a said:
Ok, fair enough, it doesn't actually host anything illegal, but it's still just exploiting a loophole. Of course the object of the webpage is to get files and programs without having to pay for them, and linking to other pages instead of their own is justs them exploiting this loophole.

The year in prison is a bit much though, they're obviously no danger to anyone else, so I don't think a jail sentence would be right for them.

I think downloading out of print games, like Planescape: Torment is fine though.
Not really a loophole, is it?
The law says that they aren't allowed to host illegal files, so instead of hosting them, they link to places where they are hosted.

How is that not a loophole?
The phone book doesn't pimp out prostitutes. They simply list the phone numbers of "escort services". They "know" full well what these services are. Yet, they are immune to prosecution.

It's not a loophole. It's following the law.
That's the whole point of a loophole.

You do something which is usually illegal, but you do it in a way that's technically legal.

That's what The Pirate Bay did. That's why it's a loophole.
And what the phone book did. But, help me out here, it's ok when they do it?
Well, I'd say that it would be wrong to have the phone number of a pimping agency in the phonebook.

Besides, does the phonebook actually give out the phonenumbers of pimping agencies?
 

SmilingKitsune

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santaandy said:
Well, games are expensive to purchase, and if I buy a bad game, then I'm out all the time and money I spent on it. I'm not saying unlicensed downloading is the answer, but your reasoning for being against it is flawed. It's not my job to support the developers; it's their job to entertain me. If they fail, the deserve to be left out in the cold. If anyone else did their job badly, they'd be fired or the company would go out of business. Fitting punishments, I say. The entertainment industry needs to realize that they have to play by the same rules and get used to it. It's only fair.
But people hardly pirate games that are bad now do they? So what you're saying doesn't make much sense, and pirating a good game to make up for buyijg a bad one hardly seems fair to those who developed the good one.
Let's take Crisis as an example, a big budget game, in development for several years, it was released to very warm critical reception, yet at retail it did rather uninspiringly, partly because the game would only run on extremely powerful PCs, and partly because it was pirated to hell in a hog cart.
If you want to know if a game is for you, do a bit of reading first, read reviews to see not only is it a well developed game, but if it seems like one to your personal tastes.
I for one want to support the developers of the games I love so much, just as I want to support my favourite musicians, film makers etc.
 

JohnSmith

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Ragdrazi said:
JohnSmith said:
piratebay is fail. Whatever my opinions on DRM, or the particular crappy marketing of some companies that doesn't make wholesale theft of intellectual property a right thing to do. I believe that business models need to change but i don't believe an irresponsible approach like that taken by piratebay is morally defensible and whatever trite nonsense they are trotting out this week about them not actually stealing anything can be dumped in the bull#$%^ bin at your earliest connivence.
Well, not only did The Pirate Bay (as opposed to piratebay, whatever that might be) not steal anything, they weren't actually charged with stealing anything.
Please excuse my earlier lazy typing. The Pirate Bay provides a service. This service allows people to obtain illegal copies of software. This is damaging to companies. As I commented earlier I do have a problem with the business models used by a number of the companies affected however, destroying them as going concerns by offering a means to obtain their product without paying for it is an irresponsible and rather silly way to campaign. This isn't just software companies that are effected The Pirate Bay tracks torrents of books and movies as well. Piracy does have consequences it isn't a victimless crime, the fact that the law hasn't caught up with it yet doesn't make it right.

Also I use the term stealing here because the rather fine difference is somewhat irrelevant. If someone stood outside your house and helped a thief carry your possessions to a truck then then he would still be implicated. Furthermore while the actual item isn't actually taken since it is a digital copy what is taken is money in the form of lost earnings and last time I looked theft of money was most definitely classed as theft.

On a side note thank you for making a comment that was wildly irrelevant to my post. I am aware that they weren't charged with larceny however, what I was trying to get across was that, their actions were tantamount to theft, and if not theft then still criminally irresponsible.
 

santaandy

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SmilingKitsune said:
1)But people hardly pirate games that are bad now do they? So what you're saying doesn't make much sense, and pirating a good game to make up for buyijg a bad one hardly seems fair to those who developed the good one.

2)Let's take Crisis as an example, a big budget game, in development for several years, it was released to very warm critical reception, yet at retail it did rather uninspiringly, partly because the game would only run on extremely powerful PCs, and partly because it was pirated to hell in a hog cart.

3)If you want to know if a game is for you, do a bit of reading first, read reviews to see not only is it a well developed game, but if it seems like one to your personal tastes.

4)I for one want to support the developers of the games I love so much, just as I want to support my favourite musicians, film makers etc.
1) Not only is that not what I said, that's not what I meant. Also, people *do* pirate bad games all the time. Not intentionally, but all games are pirated nowadays, it's kind of like a form of consumer protection where there is a lack of a demo. They don't pirate games *because* they are bad; they pirate games to find out *if* they are bad. I wouldn't pirate a good game to make up for buying a bad one; I simply won't purchase *anything* now until I am *guaranteed* to enjoy it (at least enough to make purchasing it worthwhile). And whose fault is that? The industry, for churning out so much crap and breaking so many promises.

2) Be careful about assuming things; not every download was a guaranteed sale. And some things that get downloaded actually *do* sell well. Besides, what critics say and what consumers feel are two different things. Just because a game got good reviews doesn't mean people would want to buy it. And even a "good" game, that is made well, doesn't always equate to a purchase. We consumers are not wallets full of cash that will purchase anything based on a set of benchmarks the industry provides for us. We purchase things because we both are able to and want to. I thought Crisis was boring so I didn't buy (or pirate) it. And some people think Final Fantasy is boring so they don't buy it. Both games were made well and reviewed well, but not everyone wanted to buy them solely because of it. The industry makes up imaginary sales in this way all the time to make themselves seem like they are losing serious amounts of money. They may have the actual number of downloads, but they can't prove each one is a guaranteed sale in the absence of downloading. So to me, their downloading "losses" are imaginary.

3) Two problems with this: there isn't always information on a particular game (especially true of older or niche titles), and you can't believe everything you read. Which means I have to rely on information provided by other players, which is an equally mixed bag. The game journalism industry is a joke; reviews are either bought and paid for, or do not provide adequate enough detail to get a true sense of what the game is like and how it plays. One member of the game industry even went so far as to try and persuade us that buying reviews is fair because it helps developers get rewarded adequately for their time and effort. Well, I'm sorry, but if the industry has to *trick* us into buying a game, it's not worth it. If the devs do a bad job or the pubs rush them and won't *let* them do a good job, why should I have to take the hit? The point of this whole section is that there is no better way to determine a game's purchaseworthiness other than to experience it yourself by playing it. And if the barrier to entry (price) is too high, more often than not, I'm simply going to walk away without considering the game at all.

4) It's your choice to view it that way, but I disagree. It's not my job to support the industry by buying subpar entertainment products; it's their job to earn my purchase through providing superior entertainment products. If they can't do that, they should lose out. If I didn't do my job well, my boss wouldn't keep me on just to support me; he'd fire me. The entertainment industry should work the same way.
 

SmilingKitsune

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santaandy said:
1) Not only is that not what I said, that's not what I meant. Also, people *do* pirate bad games all the time. Not intentionally, but all games are pirated nowadays, it's kind of like a form of consumer protection where there is a lack of a demo. They don't pirate games *because* they are bad; they pirate games to find out *if* they are bad. I wouldn't pirate a good game to make up for buying a bad one; I simply won't purchase *anything* now until I am *guaranteed* to enjoy it (at least enough to make purchasing it worthwhile). And whose fault is that? The industry, for churning out so much crap and breaking so many promises.

2) Be careful about assuming things; not every download was a guaranteed sale. And some things that get downloaded actually *do* sell well. Besides, what critics say and what consumers feel are two different things. Just because a game got good reviews doesn't mean people would want to buy it. And even a "good" game, that is made well, doesn't always equate to a purchase. We consumers are not wallets full of cash that will purchase anything based on a set of benchmarks the industry provides for us. We purchase things because we both are able to and want to. I thought Crisis was boring so I didn't buy (or pirate) it. And some people think Final Fantasy is boring so they don't buy it. Both games were made well and reviewed well, but not everyone wanted to buy them solely because of it. The industry makes up imaginary sales in this way all the time to make themselves seem like they are losing serious amounts of money. They may have the actual number of downloads, but they can't prove each one is a guaranteed sale in the absence of downloading. So to me, their downloading "losses" are imaginary.

3) Two problems with this: there isn't always information on a particular game (especially true of older or niche titles), and you can't believe everything you read. Which means I have to rely on information provided by other players, which is an equally mixed bag. The game journalism industry is a joke; reviews are either bought and paid for, or do not provide adequate enough detail to get a true sense of what the game is like and how it plays. One member of the game industry even went so far as to try and persuade us that buying reviews is fair because it helps developers get rewarded adequately for their time and effort. Well, I'm sorry, but if the industry has to *trick* us into buying a game, it's not worth it. If the devs do a bad job or the pubs rush them and won't *let* them do a good job, why should I have to take the hit? The point of this whole section is that there is no better way to determine a game's purchaseworthiness other than to experience it yourself by playing it. And if the barrier to entry (price) is too high, more often than not, I'm simply going to walk away without considering the game at all.

4) It's your choice to view it that way, but I disagree. It's not my job to support the industry by buying subpar entertainment products; it's their job to earn my purchase through providing superior entertainment products. If they can't do that, they should lose out. If I didn't do my job well, my boss wouldn't keep me on just to support me; he'd fire me. The entertainment industry should work the same way.
I think this is a clear case of immovable object meets unstopable force syndrom, so I won't drag it out much longer.
I accept what you're saying as your oppinion, but I stand by what I said to begin with, If I enjoy a game, I feel it's only right to give the developers of said game my support, I can see the logic in downloading a game to try it and then buying it if you do like it, but simply downloading everything for free I do not, and will never agree with.
 

santaandy

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SmilingKitsune said:
I think this is a clear case of immovable object meets unstopable force syndrom, so I won't drag it out much longer.
I accept what you're saying as your oppinion, but I stand by what I said to begin with, If I enjoy a game, I feel it's only right to give the developers of said game my support, I can see the logic in downloading a game to try it and then buying it if you do like it, but simply downloading everything for free I do not, and will never agree with.
I never disagreed with this sentiment. Of course you should purchase games you like and enjoy, I do too. Of course you should support companies whose efforts you enjoy and whose purchases have proven to be worthwhile, I do too.

I thought you had meant that we should give companies money for bad games when they don't deserve it just so developers could get paid for their efforts, despite said efforts being subpar. Maybe that's not what you meant, but I don't agree with that sentiment. I've already explained why I feel that way earlier, so I'll just leave it at that. Suffice it to say, the electronic gaming industry is really greedy right now, and I'd hate to see us consumers get suckered out of our money outright.

Also, I would never suggest that someone simply freeload off the world for no reason other than to not have to spend any money of my own. I totally agree with you, that *is* terrible.
 

SmilingKitsune

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santaandy said:
I never disagreed with this sentiment. Of course you should purchase games you like and enjoy, I do too. Of course you should support companies whose efforts you enjoy and whose purchases have proven to be worthwhile, I do too.

I thought you had meant that we should give companies money for bad games when they don't deserve it just so developers could get paid for their efforts, despite said efforts being subpar. Maybe that's not what you meant, but I don't agree with that sentiment. I've already explained why I feel that way earlier, so I'll just leave it at that. Suffice it to say, the electronic gaming industry is really greedy right now, and I'd hate to see us consumers get suckered out of our money outright.

Also, I would never suggest that someone simply freeload off the world for no reason other than to not have to spend any money of my own. I totally agree with you, that *is* terrible.
Looking back now I realise it may have seemed as though I were saying people should support developers regardless of the quality of their products, which certainly isn't the case, I hate sloppy cash-ins just as much as the next person, so I think we're pretty much in agreement then.
 

santaandy

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SmilingKitsune said:
Looking back now I realise it may have seemed as though I were saying people should support developers regardless of the quality of their products, which certainly isn't the case, I hate sloppy cash-ins just as much as the next person, so I think we're pretty much in agreement then.
Yeah, I think we are too. Now if we could just convince the industry to feel and behave that way too, we'd really be getting somewhere! :)