Pirates ruining it for the rest of us.

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Vegosiux

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May 18, 2011
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NuclearShadow said:
There is no doubt that it violates the EULA that you agreed to prior to cracking it. It would be reason for them to terminate your right to use it. As far as just how far it could be taken if brought to court, this is not something I would want to chance.
It does, as you mentioned, you have to agree to it to install.

But if I do not get a refund as a consequence of disagreeing with the EULA, then I don't see any obligations on my side. After all, I got ripped off, which means the contract is void and shouldn't have to care if I breach it. Either that, or I get a full refund back, in which case I'll cease and desist.

Still, it doesn't answer the question, is it piracy, or is it not?
 

lacktheknack

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Jan 19, 2009
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Deviate said:
Why should we bag on the pirates? They're the ones who provide the products without overly punishing 'features' that make playing games a fucking hassle. If I could find the guys cracking these games in real life, I'd give them a hug and a solid chunk out of my wallet to support them, because the publishers sure as hell doesn't.
PROTIP: Pirates inspired publishers to implement those "features". The more they crack, the harder the publishers fight back.

I just wish it wasn't illegal to fileshare computer-melting viruses under the guise of a game.
 

Aeshi

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1. So the pirates can crack the DRM that makes the game playable but not the DRM that makes sure the multiplayer is legit?

2. You yourself seem to admit that at best companies can only near-equal pirates for this one, also you know what's even cheaper than a "cheap" game? a "free" game.

3. If they're willing to spend ages waiting for a torrent to download something tells me most won't mind waiting a few more days.

4. Not exactly sure what you're trying to say here, but I doubt a pirated copy is going to be less convenient to carry around than a regular copy.

5. I don't think "Customer Loyalty" counts for much given how the average gamer seems to either believe that game companies have infinite money and just charge customers for games out of spite or defines "loyalty" as "I won't pirate from this company until I can think of an excuse for doing so."
 

nbamaniac

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Robin Hood was shunned by the nobles because he stole from them. However, the common populace loved him because he shared those riches with everyone. Oh, and lets look at the fact that the upper class treated those socially below them like dirt.

OMG how very very relevant! *cough*
 

Moonlight Butterfly

Be the Leaf
Mar 16, 2011
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NuclearShadow said:
You know, after looking through this thread I think xXxJessicaxXx may actually be trolling us and baiting us to start a massive argument.

On her original post she mentions that she does not like to be seen as a thief due to simply being a PC gamer, on another she clearly supports a action where a teacher punishes a entire class because of a single students action. These two things are highly incompatible with each other. Either shes trolling or she is being intellectually dishonest in the discussion willing to bend her own view to simply not appear wrong.
heh. That's my whole point though. I don't like games developers viewing me as being a thief I also wouldn't want the teacher to punish me for being a cheater. The difference is I don't blame the teacher for their reaction I blame the pirate/cheater.

Do you see?

It's pirates not the games companies that PC gamers should look to when a publisher brings out another draconian DRM because they are the reason for it in the first place.

Hope that clears up my views. I'm not trying to start a flame war either honestly I didn't expect so many people to be defending piracy.
 

deadxero

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Welcome to the real world. Assholes ruin things for upstanding members of society... not a new story.
 

Paladin Anderson

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Kopikatsu said:
Phlakes said:
Protip: shut down Pirate Bay. You know, have people who can do something about it actually do something about it.

Sure, there'll be massive fucking rage, but that'll blow over eventually.
Apparently The Pirate Bay isn't actually doing anything illegal. The torrent files they keep don't contain any copyrighted material since it's a P2P thing. However, that just means that copyright laws on the internet are woefully inadequate. But I'm sure that you've seen how people flip the fuck out whenever legislation mentions internet anything. (Patrick Leahy: "Let's make illegal streaming a felony instead of a misdemeanor. It's currently difficult to enforce and the fine used as punishment is negligible compared to the profits generated from illegal streaming making it profitable to essentially bribe the law." Internet: "THEY'RE TRYING TO TAKE AWAY OUR RIIIIIIIIGHTS."

PanYue said:
Kopikatsu said:
Yes, exactly that. I would also say that you should kick them in the crotch, but apparently that's sexual harassment.

It's an industry-wide issue and should be treated as such.
I have tried this 'method' before. It seems to always end up with them calling me of being a "goodie-goodie" or something of the like. Then they go on about how they're broke or they can't buy games or some lame excuse. I somehow manage to scramble a few bucks together for a game when I want it. I think the pirates attitude towards piracy as a whole is linked to the fact that the internet makes it look so damn easy.
I agree. A free game is just a Google away.

If I can't afford a game, then I don't play it. `-` The attitude you mentioned is what put the US into a major recession, actually. Many people took out large loans from the bank that they didn't need, because they wanted a new car or bigger house or whatever.

This can explain it more. It's wrong on one point, though. Federal Reserve isn't private, it's controlled by Congress.
I got off topic, sorry.
Wow.... was anything in that cartoon accurate? I think most of it is plausible, if presented in a sensationalist manner. Except for the Kennedy assassination thing which reeks of conspiracy theory.
 

Athinira

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Aeshi said:
1. So the pirates can crack the DRM that makes the game playable but not the DRM that makes sure the multiplayer is legit?
Multi-player requires a unique serial to register the game to your account in 99% of all cases. Even CD-key generators can't generate a serial that is valid (unless they get lucky). So yes, in most cases pirates ARE compelled to play the single player only. Some games attempt to get around this by emulating the server structure of the real game (so-called 'pirated servers'), but the experience is most often buggy, dumbed down, laggy and often doesn't work at all.

As for the rest.
Aeshi said:
2. You yourself seem to admit that at best companies can only near-equal pirates for this one, also you know what's even cheaper than a "cheap" game? a "free" game.

3. If they're willing to spend ages waiting for a torrent to download something tells me most won't mind waiting a few more days.

4. Not exactly sure what you're trying to say here, but I doubt a pirated copy is going to be less convenient to carry around than a regular copy.

5. I don't think "Customer Loyalty" counts for much given how the average gamer seems to either believe that game companies have infinite money and just charge customers for games out of spite or defines "loyalty" as "I won't pirate from this company until I can think of an excuse for doing so."
...your mistake here is that you take each individual point out of context, and not only do you fail to apply any factual logic to them individually (your logic is quite simply awful), they don't matter individually, they matter in unison. Every single point combined with the others add up to be more than the sum of it's parts. Yes, a free game is cheaper than a cheap game on it's own, but if points 3-5 outweight that, then in many cases people WILL buy instead of pirate.

In fact, if by your logic no person in the world would EVER buy a game (except the really hardcore 'Piracy is 100% wrong' people, and those aren't that numerous).

But to take your points apart one by one:
2) Cheap games is often enough. Valve have shown data to prove that the steam sales are working, dramatically. Decreasing a games cost by 75% during a sale, would typically lead to 3500% the amount of purchases. I'm sure you can do the basic math from there that this adds up to more $$$$$$$$.

3) If people were truly didn't mind waiting, then noone would ever pre-order a game until they read the reviews.

People in general can't wait. Period. That's how we work. We want stuff, we want it NOW and even being delayed one day can sometimes pain people. The "torrent wait" doesn't apply, because that's a waiting time you can't get around in any case (pirate or digital buy).

4) Pirated copies ARE less convenient carrying around than steam copies. I know this, not because i pirate, but because i have backup-games from all my old CD's (which are essentially equivalent to pirated games, except they're bought legally). It IS more convenient to just ask Steam to download something and then go play (or do) something else while waiting.

Then there is the issue of online-piracy being a hassle. It's not much of a hassle, but you still have to search through torrents, figure out of a torrent is real or a fake (of if the bundled crack is working). With the exception of Ubisoft-games, legal purchases typically just WORK.

5) Customer loyalty matters a lot more than you think. People who love a game from a company typically buys from them again if they got treated will in the process. Blizzard and Valve are both companies that can testify to that. In fact, i can't wait to see the piracy numbers on the Single Player games EA is planning on releasing on Origin Only (like Mass Effect 3) to prove my point.

Your logic has no grasp in reality at all. If it had, then like i said, almost no person would EVER buy a game, even the cheap games. People have a lot of reasons for pirating and a lot for buying games, but in the end they can be attributed down to the five points i made. And yes they matter. You typically can't beat piracy on point 2, but for most consumers, you can beat them on every other point, and if you do that, you have a recipe for a game that will sell well and be pirated less (it will still be pirated, you can never get rid of piracy or the most extreme pirates, but less).
 

Nopenahnuhuh

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xXxJessicaxXx said:
NuclearShadow said:
You know, after looking through this thread I think xXxJessicaxXx may actually be trolling us and baiting us to start a massive argument.

On her original post she mentions that she does not like to be seen as a thief due to simply being a PC gamer, on another she clearly supports a action where a teacher punishes a entire class because of a single students action. These two things are highly incompatible with each other. Either shes trolling or she is being intellectually dishonest in the discussion willing to bend her own view to simply not appear wrong.
heh. That's my whole point though. I don't like games developers viewing me as being a thief I also wouldn't want the teacher to punish me for being a cheater. The difference is I don't blame the teacher for their reaction I blame the pirate/cheater.

Do you see?

It's pirates not the games companies that PC gamers should look to when a publisher brings out another draconian DRM because they are the reason for it in the first place.

Hope that clears up my views. I'm not trying to start a flame war either honestly I didn't expect so many people to be defending piracy.

As I said before, the whole piracy issue is only an issue of this magnitude because the game industry has no idea how to address it. Piracy didn't kill the music industry before, it freaking reinvigorated it and completely revolutionized the way music is handled and distributed.

Same goes for certain TV shows in sites like hulu. South Park has a site where you can watch all, read'em ALL their episodes for free, you only have to suffer through 3 small advertisements mid episode, which to me is no hassle, and people STILL buy the show's DVDs despite it being legally available for free online.

Pirates aren't the problem, they're the symptoms of a much bigger issue that has been around since the advent of floppy disks. As Gabe Newel said, if people are pirating your stuff it means you're doing something wrong. Point to prove this? Russia was one of the world's biggest software pirates, and when STEAM was opened up in Russia the community and a fair number of suits scoffed at Gabe stating that because piracy was so much more rampant in Russia than anywhere else in the northern hemisphere that he'd get nothing but a big profit loss from this venture. It's 2011 and Russia beats Europe entirely in game sales in STEAM alone, and piracy is still as big as it was there 10 years ago.

If you honestly think that piracy is the bottom line issue to this whole "problem" that's hurting you and you alone than you're just being short sighted.
 

Kopikatsu

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Paladin Anderson said:
Kopikatsu said:
Phlakes said:
Protip: shut down Pirate Bay. You know, have people who can do something about it actually do something about it.

Sure, there'll be massive fucking rage, but that'll blow over eventually.
Apparently The Pirate Bay isn't actually doing anything illegal. The torrent files they keep don't contain any copyrighted material since it's a P2P thing. However, that just means that copyright laws on the internet are woefully inadequate. But I'm sure that you've seen how people flip the fuck out whenever legislation mentions internet anything. (Patrick Leahy: "Let's make illegal streaming a felony instead of a misdemeanor. It's currently difficult to enforce and the fine used as punishment is negligible compared to the profits generated from illegal streaming making it profitable to essentially bribe the law." Internet: "THEY'RE TRYING TO TAKE AWAY OUR RIIIIIIIIGHTS."

PanYue said:
Kopikatsu said:
Yes, exactly that. I would also say that you should kick them in the crotch, but apparently that's sexual harassment.

It's an industry-wide issue and should be treated as such.
I have tried this 'method' before. It seems to always end up with them calling me of being a "goodie-goodie" or something of the like. Then they go on about how they're broke or they can't buy games or some lame excuse. I somehow manage to scramble a few bucks together for a game when I want it. I think the pirates attitude towards piracy as a whole is linked to the fact that the internet makes it look so damn easy.
I agree. A free game is just a Google away.

If I can't afford a game, then I don't play it. `-` The attitude you mentioned is what put the US into a major recession, actually. Many people took out large loans from the bank that they didn't need, because they wanted a new car or bigger house or whatever.

This can explain it more. It's wrong on one point, though. Federal Reserve isn't private, it's controlled by Congress.
I got off topic, sorry.
Wow.... was anything in that cartoon accurate? I think most of it is plausible, if presented in a sensationalist manner. Except for the Kennedy assassination thing which reeks of conspiracy theory.
Kennedy Assassination? Wut?

I've only seen up to where it finishes with the ancient bank thing.
 

DracoSuave

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Jan 26, 2009
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NuclearShadow said:
He was asking about the legality of cracking a legit purchased software. The only way he could even get to the step to crack it would be to accept the EULA before the installation.
It doesn't matter. The contract is already fulfilled in whole once consideration exchanges hands. The EULA is not contractually binding, because you've never agreed to the contract before you purchased the product.

It's like if you buy a car, and you sign the contract and all that stuff, and then you get it home, and suddenly some guy comes in and says 'We get to take the car back because you didn't read the End Driver License Manual which we put in the glove box after purchase.'

For a EULA to be legally binding, it has to be presented to you before money changes hands. For games to not be considered a product, it has to say so on the package, AND the EULA. (WoW's EULA is very clear, and the retail package mentions that it is not a product either.)
 

Moonlight Butterfly

Be the Leaf
Mar 16, 2011
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NuclearShadow said:
xXxJessicaxXx said:
NuclearShadow said:
You know, after looking through this thread I think xXxJessicaxXx may actually be trolling us and baiting us to start a massive argument.

On her original post she mentions that she does not like to be seen as a thief due to simply being a PC gamer, on another she clearly supports a action where a teacher punishes a entire class because of a single students action. These two things are highly incompatible with each other. Either shes trolling or she is being intellectually dishonest in the discussion willing to bend her own view to simply not appear wrong.
heh. That's my whole point though. I don't like games developers viewing me as being a thief I also wouldn't want the teacher to punish me for being a cheater. The difference is I don't blame the teacher for their reaction I blame the pirate/cheater.

Do you see?

It's pirates not the games companies that PC gamers should look to when a publisher brings out another draconian DRM because they are the reason for it in the first place.

Hope that clears up my views. I'm not trying to start a flame war either honestly I didn't expect so many people to be defending piracy.
After Pearl harbor innocent Japanese Americans were sent to camps after in fear that they may be spies, even if there was no evidence against them simply because they were Japanese.
So with your logic, putting the Japanese in camps lies completely on the fault of Japan and
America was not at fault for the over-reaction and punishment of innocent people?

Actually, lets make this a little more personal. If you were to call me a nasty name, and I went and burned down your home. You would feel that this situation was completely your fault for you calling me a name? I should not be seen at fault at all of my extreme reaction?

I want to make this clear, is this the stance you are taking?
Nope it isn't because you have blown it completely out of proportion. Frankly I find it kind of worrying that you are comparing it to that sort of thing. It has completely different connotations. Are you seriously comparing DRM with prison camps and burning someone's house down?!

However, you assume that I approve of DRM...I don't and I've made that clear in my previous posts but I blame the pirates for it's existence and pirates are the reason why the publishers view PC gamers as thieves.
 

Snotnarok

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Nov 17, 2008
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No, I don't think game players should do something about it because companies are making a bigger deal over this than they should be. They see pirated numbers as losses when you can't directly equate the two. Even when most titles bomb they still make a profit so their complaint isn't "we didn't make more money" basically. Which is a fair enough complaint till you think about what THEY are not doing.

-Competitive pricing. Not every game needs to be full price, changing the price or having sales often have proven in gaming to make sales jump. Do they do this? No some companies just charge more instead. And the biggest gripe, paying 60 dollars for a 5-6 hour game, that's stupid, charge less.

-No invasive DRM. They should protect their games, really they should however I've yet to see a decent DRM besides steam that doesn't fuck it's customers instead of fucking with pirates. This is something Ubisoft could stand to learn, pirates ALWAYS get the game and that only leaves the customer with their shitty online only DRM. Which, by the way is ALSO on consoles so don't think anyone is free of this bs.

-Have sales. No game company, like steam and origin does solid sales. It's 60USD no matter what and we'll make more money per-game than anything. Except steam has taught us that games on sale profits jump up to 1200%, that's profits not sales.

-Charge sane prices for DLC. 5 dollars for a new gun? Does that sound like it's a decent price or is something you'd buy? You have companies like Bethesda putting out DLC that is hours long and has all new stuff for 10 (On sale for 5 or 3). Then you have other games charging $3 for a shirt for xbox avatars and CoD charging $15 dollars for 4 maps (sometimes maps from older games).

It's not my problem the industry doesn't see that there are things they can do but won't because despite piracy numbers because they still THEY TURN A PROFIT. If they really were hurting they'd change their tune and do something, instead they try little things that piss off the customers that actually by their games by doing shady illegal crap (Putting DRM in games and not listing it, they've gotten better, but even Dragon Age 2 has had it.). So let THEM actually try to do something.
 

Aeshi

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Athinira said:
[trimmed for tidiness]
1. Then why doesn't "Always Online" DRM just do that? last time I checked they both ran on the same principle of "Server verifies legitness"

[2. You yourself have admitted that you can't really beat the Pirates at this and I don't really have anything more to say, so I'm going to let this point be]

3. And are the pirates the people who are going to pre-order? No. My point was that the people who will/are going to pirate the game probably aren't going to care if it takes a few days for a pirated copy to become available, considering they're willing to wait hours (or longer for a larger game) for the Torrent to do its work anyway. There are always going to be people to impatient to wait, but pirates probably aren't those people (also: Pre-Order bonuses)

4. As opposed to starting a torrent and going to do something else while waiting? (plus this point really depends on how much you travel/change machines.)

5. Blizzard and Valve have (what is basically) the most popular MMO and the most popular method of digital distribution going for them respectively. They can basically do whatever they want at this point.
 

Twilight_guy

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Nov 24, 2008
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I would say that's a good idea except pirates are the kind of people who are so entitles that they use the argument, I couldn't pay therefore I should get it for free. No, you can't pay therefore you don't get it at all. Games are not part of well-fair you are not entitled to own games. They also say that pirating would stop if games were "better" and the absolute rock stupidity of that statement speaks for itself. How do you stop piracy when some subset of the group that pirates is that far gone into their own twisted logic?
 

BOOM headshot65

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Kopikatsu said:
If I can't afford a game, then I don't play it. `-` The attitude you mentioned is what put the US into a major recession, actually. Many people took out large loans from the bank that they didn't need, because they wanted a new car or bigger house or whatever.

This can explain it more. It's wrong on one point, though. Federal Reserve isn't private, it's controlled by Congress.
I got off topic, sorry.
What the frick?! This started out good, but then it had to go all conspiracy thery on us. Oh well, it was good for a laugh. =3

Paladin Anderson said:
Wow.... was anything in that cartoon accurate? I think most of it is plausible, if presented in a sensationalist manner. Except for the Kennedy assassination thing which reeks of conspiracy theory.
To answer your question. No, not really. The thing they explained at the beginning about banks loaning out money they dont have is accurate, but if you didnt know they, you obviously dont know how a bank operates. Everything else...one of the oldest conspiracy theorys in the book, thought up most likely by people who put themselves in huge debt for things they didnt need, then blamed the banks when they became S,OL.