Pirates ruining it for the rest of us.

[Samus Aran but a man]

Unfortunately I can only see piracy going away if the government censored the internet, removing The Pirate Bay and so forth.

If only more people watched Extra Credits...

 

[babinro]

No pirating is not

Or modding would be too
Or at least people who crack game engines in want of modding would be

Pirating is not hurting the platform in any big substantial way, sorry but it's just how it is

yes, game developers are being cheated out of a cut, but guess what pirates do? They buy games they deem worth it

If your game is not worth it, then they're not buying

The brunt of pirates are just gamers who have no money to keep on buying AAA titles on release
And NO you are not going to compare video games with the "real world"
You can't , why not?
Because video games are a vibrant media

The demand for video games is the only reason they exist, that demand remains active thanks to pirates too

I think Pirates are like Ryanair for the gaming industry

They advertise a shitload, they mod like crazy to work around fix, and perfect the games they take as their own and then advertise some more

With all the advertising be it mouth to mouth or forum based these pirates do
They attract at least 2 people who will buy the game based on their fandom/biases

This sets into motion a chain of events where a pirate is actually worth more to a game developer than a consumer


But nobody ever thinks of that!

Your regular consumer will mostly whine about how bad a game he got for his money
A pirate will just tell you clean and simple what the game is and what's wrong with it (and if there's people looking to fix that)
Settings mapping and fine tuning gear to have games played best
that's what pirates do


Now sure you can clasp me in irons but I'm giving you the truth here
Most people who pirate games won't go heralding that they're pirates, they will however herald games they thought would be worth the money, and if they knew those games would be they'd save up for it

Because people are people and not everyone is filthy rich

According to your logic, The Witcher 2 a game which has sold over 1 million but has been pirated by an estimated 4.5 million+ is set to reach roughly 9 million sales based on the word of mouth advertising. Or did that game not qualify as being good enough for legitimate purchase?

At least among the people I know...if someone pirates a game and likes it, they will tell their friends about it and then provide them the links to get it for free. In their eyes, it would be a jerkish move to expect your friends to pay for something they got for free.

While I'm sure a small percentage of piracy leads to sales, I would sooner call the act itself a snowball effect that simply costs more and more potential revenue as time goes on.

 

[masterbazza]

Protip: shut down Pirate Bay. You know, have people who can do something about it actually do something about it.

Sure, there'll be massive fucking rage, but that'll blow over eventually.

EDIT: Okay, seriously, people, stop quoting me. I have better things to do with my life than all this-

you told me not to so i did
(you should have seen this coming)

 

[Xanthious]

You have a guy in this very thread stating that the reason pirates pirate is because he has no buying power.

Having no buying power kinda counteracts the 'we buy more' argument, because you CAN'T.

You are right one single person represents every single pirate walking the Earth. I know I for one . . . . errrrr I mean I have a "friend" that buys a fair amount of PC games and also isn't afraid to hit up Usenet or torrents for other PC titles. My "friend" supports companies like Mojang, Stardock, Runic Games etc. However, this "friend" will be damned if he is going to spend a fucking penny on ANYTHING with EA's logo or Ubisoft's or a few other select publishers logo on it. But he doesn't let his refusal to pay stop him. Instead he finds other, possibly less savory, means.

Ya see these companies like EA and Ubisoft have taken to playing this game where they want to get as much of gamers' money as they can while giving as little as humanly possible in return. Well my "friend" thinks that's fair enough but if they get to play that game he thinks he should get to play back and get as much of their product as he can while giving as little of his money as he can get away with. It turns out he's a LOT better than they are at the game.

To the point at hand though, pirates are in general people interested in the medium. Sure there are casual pirates and pirates in third world countries that don't know any other way but most pirates not living in a third world country are what we'd classify as gamers. I'd wager most gamers, if they are being honest (and we know that can't happen on these forums) fall into a mix of piracy and legitimate purchasing. Just because a person pirates one game you'd have to be a helmet wearing simpleton to make the assumption they pirate everything just as you can't assume someone that buys one game buys all of their games. The majority very likely fall in the middle. So, if the majority of gamers are pirates to varying levels it stands to reason that pirates indeed spend more on games than non pirates.

 

[M-E-D The Poet]

No pirating is not

You should probably not do this:

yes, game developers are being cheated out of a cut, but guess what pirates do? They buy games they deem worth it

If your game is not worth it, then they're not buying

...state that piracy has an economic gain...

The brunt of pirates are just gamers who have no money to keep on buying AAA titles on release

....then follow it up with an argument stating that pirates have no economic power.

You can choose one. Both stances are contradictory.

The demand for video games is the only reason they exist, that demand remains active thanks to pirates too

I think Pirates are like Ryanair for the gaming industry

The demand to buy video games remains active because of a black market that charges nothing?

Learn what 'supply and demand' is and how 'basic fucking economics' works. By putting out a product for free, you've created a competitor for the same product that is not free. You're not 'creating demand' for the product that is not free, you're 'taking demand away' from the product that is not free.

This is how economics works on a fundamental level. Your failure to understand this undermines any argument you could possibly make about the economic viability of piracy and benefits to the producer.

They advertise a shitload, they mod like crazy to work around fix, and perfect the games they take as their own and then advertise some more

With all the advertising be it mouth to mouth or forum based these pirates do
They attract at least 2 people who will buy the game based on their fandom/biases

Is this arugment based on faith or fact? Are you insinuating that people who economically invest in a game are less passionate? Are you actually going to fucking suggest that a guy who likes a publisher or francise enough to actually open his wallet rather than piratebay.org is somehow less invested?

This sets into motion a chain of events where a pirate is actually worth more to a game developer than a consumer

Except those 2 people are then given a torrent by the pirate, so that they don't have to buy the game. The same pirate then tells them how not to pay for it, so that their friends can enjoy the same experience they had.

Piracy breeds further piracy, more than it breeds sales.

But nobody ever thinks of that!

Because it's batshit insane, counters the laws of how economics works on a fundamental level, and doesn't actually happen.

It's a myth, a fantasy, that occurs occasionally in anecdote, but DOES NOT ACTUALLY HAPPEN ENOUGH TO MEAN A FUCK.

Your regular consumer will mostly whine about how bad a game he got for his money
A pirate will just tell you clean and simple what the game is and what's wrong with it (and if there's people looking to fix that)

Because people who pay money for a game are predisposed to hating a game? You're going to have to provide some sort of evidence to that, because most people who spend money on things will actually try to rationalize their decisions and are more likely to defend their commerce. It's called "Post-Purchase Rationalization". It's an actual thing.

You should, like, try to research this.

Settings mapping and fine tuning gear to have games played best
that's what pirates do

Modders != Pirates. Some modders are pirates and some modders are not. You're confusing two completely fucking different terms here.

Now sure you can clasp me in irons but I'm giving you the truth here
Most people who pirate games won't go heralding that they're pirates, they will however herald games they thought would be worth the money, and if they knew those games would be they'd save up for it

So, if they knew the game they stole would be worth the money, they'd have paid for it.

This implies that they do not pay for it after the fact.

This is truly the mindset of the "white-hat pirate." See, once you've stolen it, and enjoyed it, and had your fun with it, and you make a positive review... you have no need to purchase it. So you don't.

Because people are people and not everyone is filthy rich

Basically THIS is the entire crux of your argument. You don't steal because you need it. You don't steal because it's required for you to function.

You steal because you're fucking cheap. You can't afford something so you feel entitled to have it. That's it. Everything else is bullshit rationalization, and people can fucking see right through it.

Now come on, no one believes you're so naive as to believe the fucking crap you just spouted. This is just the aggrandizing rationalization pirates blatantly lie about to sell their world view.

Either you're smart enough to realize how fucking wrong you are, and are lying to get away with theft.... or you're so fucking naive you need to wake the hell up because this shit is detrimental to society, and yourself.

Think about it.

And no, even if there where no pirates at all, there would still be a shitload of DRM simply because the companies like to control how you use your product and "just in case if some pirates appear".

1) Before there was DRM, there were people pirating. Stealing is so fucking old it's mentioned in the bible. SPOILER ALERT: They thought it was bad.

2) There's no 'Just in case if some pirates appear.' Every game is pirated. Every. Single. Fucking. One.

Does this mean that I want harsh DRM in every game? Hell no. It was annoying when the game would stop just so I could look up some code in some code wheel based on amorpheus images... or worse... try to find an image that matched it in the manual... and while it's less bothersome now, it's still annoying.

But pirates are not blameless. They came first, not the DRM. They have no fucking leg to stand on in this. No, you're not here because of DRM. You're here to get free shit. The DRM issue is just your fucking propaganda, and smart people know that. You know that.

Urgh did not take the time to read your entire post

Yes I know how "basic economics" work

Do you know what contra-economy is?

Or the deeper roots behind economy?

Our economy isn't just as simple as " demand and supply" anymore

that would be the same as saying we're still trading pigs for cows

oh wait.. a deeper argument evolves here, that's exactly what we can discuss

But anyway ,yes piracy is theft, no it's not ruining the industry for all of us

Developers can still exist with the sales they get these days, otherwise they would have long shut down

Piracy does not start DRM, developers do
Piracy does not bankrupt developers/gamestudios. shitty investments and bad banking do

 

[votemarvel]

I don't have a problem with publishers wanting to protect their product. I have trouble with those publishers treating me like a thief just because I choose to game on the PC.

I've bought the two current games in the Mass Effect series many times over. Mass Effect I own six times (five copies on the 360, one for the PC) and Mass Effect 2 three times (once for the 360, twice on PC). Yet on the PC I am accused of being a thief even though I've bought the games because the DRM makes me prove I own the game. Yet a person who has pirated the game has to prove nothing.

To stop piracy they need to start providing a better service than the pirates provide. This is never more true than in Ubisoft's case where the only people who suffer from the DRM in their games are those who have bought them.

 

[Jingle Fett]

Piracy is the cancer of gaming since the early 80s, jet the gaming industry managed to grow into a multi-billion industry.

Either medicine found a way to cure cancer for real, or you have some explaining to do.

And no, even if there where no pirates at all, there would still be a shitload of DRM simply because the companies like to control how you use your product and "just in case if some pirates appear".

The Witcher 2 numbers where obviously pulled out of their asses, jet the guy said he still thinks that no DRM is the way to go and they still made a decent profit.
Valve's policy is to have only the minimal level of DRM (1 time activation).

Read this [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/114391-Valves-Gabe-Newell-Says-Piracy-Is-a-Service-Problem] and you will find out what is really killing the PC platform.
You should also go on "The Word of Notch" (minecraft's creators blog) and look at his opinion about piracy. Piracy can in fact have a positive impact on the medium.

Piracy is not good, but neither is it the source of all evil. The publisher are (at least most of them). Trust me on this one.

I agree. I'd say piracy is often a direct result of publishers being total dicks. Just look at Spore. Uncrackable they said. Only 5 installs per person, must be online to play, etc. Pirated months before release; breaks piracy records. Problem? [insert troll face]
Piracy is the customer's way of fighting back, of keeping publishers in check. Generally, when piracy rises, something is often wrong with the game. Either it costs too much, has bad DRM, or...it's a crappy game (which means it's overpriced).
This is why I think the indie scene is doing so well. New unique games at $60 are risky but at $20? $10? Less? In other words if the game is cheaper, it's not a big deal if it's a crappy game. If a $60 game is crappy however, that hurts the wallet. I mentioned in an earlier post that I've bought loads of games on steam that I haven't even played, for the sole reason that they were cheap.

Plus, like you mention, piracy does have its benefits. If only because it increases the popularity of the game; if nobody buys the game but everyone is playing it, you know you have a market; it's just a matter of developers finding out how to tap into that market. Which is more than doable considering all the successful free-to-play games out there that turn a profit. Just look at League of Legends; I highly doubt piracy is a problem for them at all.

 

[Esotera]

And that assumes that piracy is actually bad for the industry.

No need for the assumptions. It is factually bad for the industry; not just for the Publishers and Developers, but ultimately for the customers as well.

[/quote]

There's surprisingly little evidence for this. The most prolific music pirates also spend more than their peers on music, I'd be willing to bet that's the same for games. Creating a digital copy of something doesn't actually cause the developer/publisher to lose money spent on producing a box, CD, etc, and helps spread good reviews of a game, so that more people might buy it.

I don't support or advocate piracy, but I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing for the industry. I'd also say that the number of pirates is vastly over-estimated.

 

[votemarvel]

An addition I'd like to make is that I know far more people who pirate games for their consoles and handhelds than I do who pirate PC games and yet little to no effort seems to be made by the publishers to stop this form of piracy.

They often think I am an idiot because I buy my games, then again I am a sucker for the new game smell and manuals make good toilet reading material.

 

[Atmos Duality]

The most prolific music pirates also spend more than their peers on music, I'd be willing to bet that's the same for games.

How do we know that? Did we go around asking pirates how much they spent on music that year?

Creating a digital copy of something doesn't actually cause the developer/publisher to lose money spent on producing a box, CD, etc, and helps spread good reviews of a game, so that more people might buy it.

Singles sell albums, yes. That's been true since the dawn of the modern music business.
However with a video game, you either get the whole experience, or nothing (don't say "demo"..nobody pirates those when the real thing is available). Spreading good reviews can indeed be done by word of mouth, but so does the knowledge of how to pirate that game.

I've seen plenty evidence of that at my college alone.

And in all cases, once the pirate has the game, they have no (read: ZERO) rational reason to pay for any of it later.

I don't support or advocate piracy, but I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing for the industry. I'd also say that the number of pirates is vastly over-estimated.

I'd say that the numbers (whether it be over or under-estimated) are unreliable at best.

 

[dfphetteplace]

The Swiss government recently conducted a study on how unauthorized downloading impacts society, and found that illegal downloading doesn?t necessarily hurt the copyright holders.

Entertainment industries have complained of losses stemming from illegal downloading, and the study was to determine whether the country should change its copyright laws.

The study found that about a third of Swiss citizens over the age of 15 illegally download music, movies, and games, but do not spend less money on entertainment as a result of the downloading. The money budgeted for entertainment doesn?t change, meaning that any illegal downloading activity is complementary.

A similar Dutch study also found that people who engage in illegal downloading attend concerts more frequently than those who don?t, and people who downloaded games actually bought more games than their counterparts who do not.

The Swiss government came to the conclusion that the copyright laws do not need to change because there is no proven negative impact from downloading.

 

[TokenRupee]

Please note that I am not talking about second hand sales, I personally think that the consumer should be allowed to treat their own property as just that as long as it doesn't violate the IP and copyright laws. I don't trade in games myself but I can at least see the argument there.

They do nothing to support for the game designers; same as the pirates don't. As such they can never be considered fans. Should be okay on general gaming forums, but not on fan sites.

But it's still their right to do so. If I don't think a company's game is worth $60 and a store is selling it for half, you'd better believe I'm going to buy it used. It's that kind of attitude that it promoting the whole online pass/$10 crap.

As far as the topic, I'll start doing my part and reporting pirates when I'm not treated like one simply because I would rather buy a used copy of a game than a brand new one without being punished.

 

[Vrach]

Shouldn't the legit PC gamers say to the pirates out there that 'Enough is enough'. They are going to ruin our gaming platform with their shenanigans. I personally hate being lumped in with people who steal just because I am a PC gamer.

Game companies treating you like pirates and you blame the pirates? That's like getting beaten up by a cop for no reason and saying it's all the criminals' fault...

People who are going to buy a new game are going to buy a new game.

The people who pirate a game are not people who were going to buy the game, but are now not going to buy the game because they pirated the game. They're people who will wait for the game to be in a bargain bin before even considering buying it.

Yeah, sure, I've pirated games. It's not illegal in my country. But never a game that I was planning on buying, and if I like the game after playing it pirated, I always fork out the money for it so I can support the company and get more games like it made. Most pirates are just like me.

Pirates aren't ruining PC gaming. Those 4.5 million pirated copies of the Witcher 2 DO NOT equall 4.5 un-sales. Thinking that they do is a basic misunderstanding of this market. Piracy won't end until games get reasonable try-before-buy policies, stop having DRM, and stop region locking. It's companies that are ruining PC gaming based on their outdated and hilarious ideas of who and what pirates are, not the pirates themselves.

Look at Valve. They're PC-only, they're anti-DRM, and are THEY hurting for cash? Hell, no.

The fact is, after buying a legal copy of a game, I often still pirate it. Why? Because pirated copies are more flexible, lack DRM, and can be used on any machine. It's an issue of convenience.

^Also, this. A thousand times this^

 

[AngleWyrm]

Hey, you remember how just a month or two ago, it was Used Games are ruining the game industry? Yeah, wake up.

 

[Solo-Wing]

SOLUTION. Make it for PC. And sell it ONLY on Onlive. No way in hell they can pirate then

 

[kcjerith]

Protip: shut down Pirate Bay. You know, have people who can do something about it actually do something about it.

Sure, there'll be massive fucking rage, but that'll blow over eventually.

EDIT: Okay, seriously, people, stop quoting me. I have better things to do with my life than all this-

But how can you ever get enough of your mailbox being full?

 

[Zakarrum]

Creating a digital copy of something doesn't actually cause the developer/publisher to lose money spent on producing a box, CD, etc, and helps spread good reviews of a game, so that more people might buy it.

Singles sell albums, yes. That's been true since the dawn of the modern music business.
However with a video game, you either get the whole experience, or nothing (don't say "demo"..nobody pirates those when the real thing is available). Spreading good reviews can indeed be done by word of mouth, but so does the knowledge of how to pirate that game.

I've seen plenty evidence of that at my college alone.

And in all cases, once the pirate has the game, they have no (read: ZERO) rational reason to pay for any of it later.

Not true, pirates can later buy the game to support the devs or because the game was ACTUALLY worth paying for and they feel guilty for pirating it or because they buy it for the multiplayer,or buy it for better patch support and less bug issues.

The fact of the matter is publishers publish games that are shit most of the time with god awful support, until publishers can come up with something better than what the pirates are providing the issue won't be solved. Such solutions include; make games of good quality, don't fuck your consumers over with DRM and online passes, better support, provide frequent updates that are easily implemented, provide a community with your game (similar to what steam does or even battlelog), and lower prices (most games priced at $60 aren't worth it, remember when the standard price was $50?). Valve and the games it sells on steam somehow manage to make a shit ton of money buy selling games for 25% and 50% off, hell sometimes games are even 75% off or higher- they wouldn't continue with these sales if there were no profits to be made.

 

[Thoric485]

The only companies that truly suffer from piracy are those who push bad games that rely on marketing and payed reviews. They recieve a huge drop in sales once word of mouth gets around and they want to delay that for as long as possible.

Good examples this year would be Dragon Age 2 and Crysis 2 - both big letdowns compared to their predecessors. They still sold around 1.5-2mil on consoles. Yet while DA:O and Crysis sold 1.5 mil and 3 mil on PC respectively, DA2 and Crysis 2's PC sales barely broke 300k each.

The way i see it piracy is just much-needed quality control.