Please define Good & Evil

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Lust

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tellmeimaninja said:
I personally think things are Beyond Good And Evil...

What I'm saying is that there are many shades of gray, and that is where most, if not all, real world situations fall. There is no black and white to see the world in.

Personally, I think in the most basic form, Good is doing something to help others despite what harm it may cause you, and evil is the inverse. This is the most basic, it has plenty of excpetions, and only allows for one factor, which there never truly is.
This best explains what I want to say. Ninja'd.

However, I've never fancied the gray scale, though. Just because there are a lot more colors out there. People start saying, "shades of gray", I say, "what about the others'. The reds, blues, greens, yellows, purples, and oranges." Mmmm....
 

Benefactor

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Mr. Grey said:
Benefactor said:
Mr. Grey said:
Perspective.

It's all shades of grey, there really isn't a good and/or evil. It's what people say by majority that's accepted or what you accept yourself.
Unless, of course, you're playing any game with an actual morality system, where you're either an angel that descended from the heavens to bring joy to all, or the kid who picked on Satan in high school with a trail of destruction in your wake.
Who said I accepted this petty morality system? It's a joke and accomplishes nothing. How the hell is someone supposed to know I'm evil? Do they sense it? Use the Force? Have a Scouter? What is it that makes them know I'm evil? The tales that are told? How do they know that's true if they never witnessed it? Could just be spiteful rumors told by a villain to impede my progress because I was kind enough to spare him his life but destroy his goals.

What they need is a means of Representation which is not too unlike the Reputation in Fallout. Karma be damned, it accomplishes nothing and isn't even using the true purpose behind the name. Just keep a reputation; I'm a saint that grieves when an innocent is killed in the crossfire, but I press on to stop the madness. This tells people I may be a hero or on their side, but I don't care who gets hurt so long as I stop the madman which is obviously not true as I have a lonely drink in the hotel room every night before I put my mask back on in the morning.

I know who I am, but do I care what they think? That is a better question to answer for gaming.

Sorry for the tirade, but to be honest I'm kind of fed up with the half-assed morality system and was greatly appreciative of Dragon Age: Origins abandoning it and Alpha Protocol adapting a consequence to every action you make instead. And you were probably sarcastic to begin with, but I've had that bottled up so long it was driving me bonkers.
I was being sarcastic, and I have to agree with your tirade. I don't think I really would have enjoyed Dragon Age as much with some sort of morality system. Was it probably evil to cut a deal with a desire demon to teach me blood magic? Considering it depends on your outlook, and asking questions like you have really makes a strong argument against things like this.

While I feel Alpha Protocol had it's share of problems, and a few of the choices were fairly obvious before they happened (I'm looking at you, Museum mission in Rome), simply having consequences and no game-created system to tell you if it was good or evil actually made you think about your actions, rather than thinking, "Oh, I'm a good character, so I should always choose the obvious "good" dialogue options and choices.

I think the worst part about it is the jarring contrast between good and evil in most games. Using Fable as an example almost feels like cheating, but it even sounds like the third game will continue this path. Do I make a city full of flowers and bunnies, or a city full of evil industry that profits on war?

The only thing I will say about these games is that I feel that going the "good" route is often more of a challenge. I'm sure I would have been flowing in caps and had an easier first runthrough of Fallout 3 if I stole everything in sight, but I didn't. Some games, perhaps like Red Dead Redemption (the first thing that came to mind) do balance this by giving you bonuses for having a high amount of honor, but most games with a morality system don't have balanced bonuses.

It seems like there might be a trend towards removing such obvious systems as of late, but I can't say for sure.
 

Stuntcrab

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Good: Those who do things to help others

Evil: Those who do things to piss off others
 

Azriel Nightshade

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There is no such thing as good or evil,only perception and opinion.In one mans eyes committing such a cruel act can be classed as evil.In another mans eyes,it can be classed as just.
-Soulja'Boy Tell'em
 

Darth Caelum

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Batsamaritan said:
Good and evil are social constructs, they are defined by a consensus between human beings...

simply put, the human race as a collective decideds what is good or bad and labels them as such, the whole concept falls apart as there a clear moral grey areas that are hard to define.

I had this argument with fundie christians on imdb many moons ago, as they believe morality exist seperate to humans and is defined by god... yet not one could sufficiently account for the differences in certain moral standards between civilizations and nations over mankinds long history...
for example...sex and marriage between 13 year olds would be considered immorral today but look back to shakespears time where romeo and juliette were just 13. Even today in america if a 22 year old has sex with a 16 year old its breaking the law, while in the uk its totally legal...
Outside a roman brothel archeologists recently uncovered a mass grave of infants... when the prostitute would inevitably become pregnant (no birth control) she would carry it to term and then kill it, this was not seen as immorral or 'evil' as new born children were not considerd fully formed human beings, today this would provoke mass outrage and some lynchings..

This is not to say morality is a bad thing however, as the definitions of good and evil are useful for society to define acceptable behaviour and keep society functioning..
Agreed. Couldn't say it better myself.
Good and Evil vary among Societies. Period.
 

Erana

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Good is like the warm, cuddly feeling that draws people to God. the idea of the "Good guys" is that there are people who congregate around this sort of idea- ultimately like a fanbase. And something's fanbase isn't the same as the thing itself, right?
At least, that's how I view it.

Anyway, it doesn't help that we tend to use "Good guy" and "protagonist" interchangably.
 

zehydra

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Lol, is this a troll thread? People have spent eons trying to understand the nature of good and evil.

My Opinion?

Evil is just a word to represent actions/people that people should feel anger/resentment towards. my understanding of it of how it is currently most often used, is that it means that an evil person is someone who intentionally does harm to another without remorse, without reason, or for pleasure.
 

Adrian3670

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I would say that in a conflict between two sides, determining what one is good would probably just mean figuring out what one is acting on the moral high ground. That way, even if they believe that killing little timmy's mother in front of his face is the right thing to do, as long as the other side was trying to save timmy's mom that makes them the good guys.
 

The Austin

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I could full this thread with the whole "good and evil aren't real things, man" argument, but instead I'll actually contribute and give my theory:

Good: The given label to one who works to improve mankind.
Evil: The opposite.

The most important part: Their are a million shades of gray in between.
 

Booze Zombie

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Good is seen as serving the group with your needs on the side-line and evil is seen as serving yourself at the expense of others.
Neutral, I suppose, is serving yourself whilst being mindful of those around you.

But this is if the world is in black, white and grey.
IRL, it tends to be a lot more grey.
 

Chamale

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Before you define Good and Evil, you must consider context. For your young nephew to understand whether a Big Daddy is a Good Guy or Bad Guy, he must understand the context of Bioshock. Of course, a fully competent understanding of Good and Evil in the context of Bioshock, one must have a solid understanding of the background of Objectivism and Collectivism in modern socioeconomic development, and how the history of these philosophies has affected popular culture.

For a young nephew, there's no need to spend 2 weeks studying Atlas Shrugged to ensure a competent understanding of the role of the individual will and group mindset in the foundation of moral judgments. I recommend a one-week primer, primarily focussing on Ayn Rand's 752-page individualism-defining novel, The Fountainhead. Be sure to focus on the fundamental conflict between various religious philosophies and Objectivism, and I'd recommend studying the works of Marx to establish to your young nephew the concept of collective Good or Evil.

If you intend to give a more satisfactory answer to the question of whether Big Daddies are Good Guys or Bad Guys, make sure your young nephew understands the impact on philosophy of world instability after the end of World War II. Take a course to help explain the way Objectivism was shaped by the deteriorating US-Soviet relations in the wake of the Berlin Blockade. Pay close attention to obscure interpretations of The Fountainhead that were briefly popular during the Korean Conflict and McCarthy era, and discuss whether or not these interpretations influenced Rand's philosophy in her later novels.


tl;dr: Defining Good and Evil for a complex issue is very difficult. It becomes almost hopeless in a context like Bioshock, where you can't be sure whether the context itself is fundamentally a result of good or evil. Much of this depends on philosophy, particularly the games possibly flippant interpretation of Objectivism.

tl;dr the tl;dr: Big Daddies might be good or evil depending on your interpretation of various obscure details.
 

Dark2003

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Good = is the definition of normal and acceptable, across all of society

Evil = anything that society has trouble to understand or just wont accept
 

Nazulu

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Good & Evil are religious terms I don't believe in, the people they call evil are those whoever disturbs the peace, it used to be just being different a century ago.
 

Zaik

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Jul 20, 2009
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According to Bioware, good is the top dialogue option, and evil is the bottom dialogue option.
 

replingham153

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Mr. Grey said:
Perspective.

It's all shades of grey, there really isn't a good and/or evil. It's what people say by majority that's accepted or what you accept yourself.
listen to this man because

A) i know from experience his opinions is awesome.

B) he's a blob.
 

Curtisthekiller

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Good and Evil are terms used to generalize the overarching themes that a specific society chooses to preferencses and its Taboo subjects.
here are two extremes to show you what i mean;
-colony 1 is a large population of capitolist fasionistas whom believe in big buisness and dressing to fit an occasion with a well paid 'law' enforcement precinct to enforce that any and all extreme taboos are kept to a minimum and attempts to insure that sourses of distress and 'lawbreakers' are dealt with.
typical preferences would include selflessness, chairity, wealth, dressing in exspensive clothing and the avoiding of taboo's. While the Taboos themselves might include; Murder, illegal substances, being poorly dressed, Nudity, and intercourse outside of marriage or some other binding ceramony
-Colony 2 on the other hand is a small group of traditionalist, Nudeists and warrior minded people whom rely on a barter system and that people resolve their own desputes in duels to first blood (or death). Favorable views would most likely would be upon strong and inteligent individuals, those whom produced many children and engaged in fair trade and fought duels alone with 'honor'. In contrast the least desireable individuals would attempt to go against tradition, fight with overwhelming numbers low birth rates and those whom would impose organized government.
Good and evil however is somewhat limited in its perseptive individual judgement (usually) by what the person can control (chooseing to help or steal from an old lady for example).
people in colony 1 would likely view "Evil" as lawbreakers, sensless murder/violence, thiefs.
while people in colony 2 would most likely consider "Evil" in the form of those whom would "dishonor" tradition, fights and probobly be suspisous of the man who would walk into their community wearing a suit & tie.

going to bioshock: the splicers to the players view- are those whom have lost their minds to a controled substance (Adam) and are a threat to him, on occasion big daddy's and generaly anyone whom they could reach, which is relitively small considering the remaining residence still able to commit to polite conversation. Now here's were it gets interesting; The Splicers view you preety much as the ultimate threat to their exsistance as time and time again they have been spoken to and propagated to believe that the player is 'Evil' and 'an invader' coupled with the fact that typically your trying to collect masses of the controlled substance they believe they need and that ending your life might bring temporary satisfation in the form of more Adam. that...and they apparently like to kill things.
Big Daddy's on the other hand are merely trying to live and let live with the residence of Rapture, defending themselves and their respective little sisters (whom are a prime target of splicers addiction) when provoked. they View the player as a threat but olny when in proximity to a little sister, otherwise their content to let you do whatever it is you strange newcomers do. when provoked however the big daddy's obviously come to a desision that someone has to die, and it dosen't want to die very much mr 'im-going-to-go-round-shooting-guys-cos-playing-as-tanks Jr.!'