PnP RPGs: videogames will never come close

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Quistnix

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Saskwach said:
You can shoot the bad guy or stab him, but you can't negotiate with him, run away, blow a hole in the wall beside him, ignore him totally and do something else meaningful, or tackle him and throw both of you off the balcony in a bittersweet ending.
I I recall correctly (It's been a while), you can do all these things in Fallout. Still, your point stands that there's a finite set of pre-made possibilities. A game that handles this very well was Deus Ex. On my first playthrough, I thought it was a well-made shooter with some stat-based stuff. On my second playthrough I decided to try and bend or break the story, and I was amazed at how far it would bend. You can choose to save, kill or ignore almost all main characters at any time you want (even though it's pretty difficult at times), and the story manages to bend itself around it and come out altered but still looking good.
If only more games would be like that.
 

Saskwach

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Break said:
Saskwach said:
You've seen a hole in my reasoning that I was too stubborn to correct: calculations can be used for certain types of interaction that RPGs are incapable of. Importantly though, PCs are still not capable of any real type of interactivity; the type in which any plausible solution can and will be allowed by the game. You can shoot any pixel on the enemy's body but it's rare that you can reason with his brain pixels, and it's impossible that you can use your own reasoning- not pre-determined choices- to do so. Interactivity and choice in videogames are mirages. They're very pretty ones, though.
When I've been comparing RPGs with "videogames" it has been in the sense of different mediums, not genres. You're right that FPSes can't be directly compared with RPGs in their kind of interactivity but I never said that they should be. I defined the type of interactivity- arguable true interactivity- I meant: the interactivity that allows you to choose any solution that seems plausible.
Oh, right, so it's just that you made a preposterous comparison. You may as well be touting the fact that a professional game of DnD offers a more involved playing experience than reading The Warlock of Firetop Mountain. What's stopping people from replacing dice-rolls and stats with actual skill, and playing out a PnPRPG-style castle-defense scenario in a big Halo LAN session?
I think my comparison is more like this: songs and poems- both are written pieces of, well, poetry. However, poems, free from having to follow musical melodies, can (emphasis: can) be deeper on a literary level, while songs find their depth in their music and its links with the lyrics. A similar analogy comes from comparing comic books and novels.
Forgetting these examples though, I don't see what's so preposterous about "RPGs=infinite possible meaningful interactions (assuming good DM), videogames=finite possible meaningful interactions (even assuming good designer)".
 

Fenixius

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Saskwach said:
I don't see what's so preposterous about "RPGs=infinite possible meaningful interactions (assuming good DM), videogames=finite possible meaningful interactions (even assuming good designer)".
Are you intending to imply, though, Saskwach, that videogames are inferior?

Technically, in a perfect world, your statement is correct. Ignoring reality and player/developer skill for a moment. An RPG can be "deeper" in terms of realism, but it can't be as visceral. That's how I percieve it. Advantages and disadvantages making each worthy of my time.
 

Alex_P

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Fenixius said:
Alex_P said:
In my opinion, most pen-and-paper games are critically flawed because they don't really focus on the stuff the medium does well -- like that story thing we keep mentioning. Instead they give you rules for rolling dice to see if you got a headshot!
What do you mean? How would it support storytelling in a way more meaningful than providing a framework for pretty much any kind of challenge?
The true beauty of pen-and-paper roleplaying is in the flexibility of the narrative. It's improvised, collaborative storytelling, which means you do it differently from sit-down-and-write-something storytelling, but there are a lot of similarities. You can frame any scene -- start the game with Conan old and wise and then cut right back to him treading thrones with his sandalled feet. As you play, you can add details to a scene as it develops, like a novelist does (compare to a video game, where all the background details are evident from the get-go). You've even got some ability to go back and change some elements of the fiction if you need to.

Traditional RPGs don't give you the tools to do this stuff. Groups basically have to make them up themselves. That's not necessarily a problem -- formal rules and less-formal rules both get the same thing done in the end. But what annoys me a lot is that the structure that a typical RPG book does give you often gets in the way of fully exploiting the medium, too. And I think the cardinal problem there is that most RPGs are trying too hard to simulate events ("rolling dice to see if you got a headshot," above), which is not the medium's strong suit.
 

For example...

(Here I'm going to meander a bit. This isn't comprehensive, nor are all points of equal importance. These are criticisms that apply to a variety of games. D&D, old and new Vampire, GURPS, and pretty much anything that looks like them. If a game says things like "make an attack roll," it's definitely one of these.)

Most RPGs model a character in terms of competencies. Nowadays that pretty much means a mix of broad-base attributes and more narrow skills, and then a bunch of usually-even-more-narrow special abilities (like magic or magic vampire powers). The character sheet is a big list of everything that a character can do, in other words. One problem with this is that anytime you have a character do something not on that sheet she'll tend to suck at it -- making it that much harder to move a character out of her established niche. In most cases, you can't really discover things about a character as you go. (This method of representing characters is one of the reasons that magic pretty much invariably sucks and doesn't feel at all "magical" in most pen-and-paper RPGs and fantasy-themed video game.)

Most RPGs incorporate advancement -- raising various stats as you play. Now, I certainly think that the basic idea of having the stuff on the sheet change over time is a great thing. But the standard way to do it? Bleh! It's pretty much always set up as escalating power: as you level / earn skill points / whatever, you pump up your numbers or add new abilities to your already-elaborate sheet. Two problems here. For starters, most stories aren't about peasants turning into kick-ass dragonslayers. Because of the "either it's on the sheet or you suck at it" problem mentioned above and the complexity of all the stats you've got floating around, it's pretty hard to do anything but a linear-time story -- that shuts down a lot of storytelling possibilities, too.

Focusing on what a character can do really screws up stories, too. An action-movie gunslinger always has the ability to shoot a guy in the face from a hundred feet away. You probably see him doing it constantly to the mooks. But we don't want him to just shoot the bad guy in the face halfway through the film, do we? And it's not that he can't -- later on, at the end, he'll be able to do that same thing just fine (probably while bleeding profusely and trying to recover from three concussions, too)! It's all about the right dramatic moment. (Meanwhile, the bad guy probably likewise can shoot a guy between the eyes at a hundred feet away, but, for 99% of all action movies out there, he's never going to be able to do that to the hero.) The standard RPG structure doesn't have that. Game rules try to compensate with stuff like hit points -- that kind of approach boils down to "shooting the bad guy in the face only counts if you've shot him in the face five previous times," which just delays the problem a bit and also makes shooting the bad guy in the face less cool. GMs have also tried to compensate for this fundamental deficiency in a lot of ways, like "fudging" (GM cheating on dice -- some groups consider it okay, some groups consider it a power trip or a violation of trust), only ever introducing bad guys at the very very end, immediately replacing the bad guy with another bad guy, or making death itself trivial. That's a lot of work to fix one very simple problem with the rules: a story isn't a simulation, so a simulation is not going to magically create a good story.
 

Now, not all this stuff is a bad idea universally. Linear-time narrative, characters represented in terms of a narrow set of things they know how to do, and rules that only really handle one kind of scene well are all fine if all you want is to play some tactical skirmishes in a dungeon. But using this kind of structure for almost every game around? Really not good for the medium.

Limits aren't bad, either. Like an improv game, an effective roleplaying session needs well-placed constraints to make things more interesting. All the limitations I mention above aren't well-placed, however. They're just there because they've been blindly inherited from the games' predecessors. Imagine every mainstream video game using a first-person shooter interface, regardless of what kind of gameplay the developers wanted to create and what kind of story the game was exploring. That's pretty much what pen-and-paper RPGs are like right now.

Most importantly of all, it's a lot of work to actually turn a clunky simulation into a good story -- at some point you really should look around and say "How is the clunky simulation actually helping, anyway?" Maybe it does help, at times, but most RPG writers and most RPG players don't really seem to seriously ask that question to begin with, and that's really hurting the medium.

-- Alex
 

Saskwach

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Fenixius said:
Saskwach said:
I don't see what's so preposterous about "RPGs=infinite possible meaningful interactions (assuming good DM), videogames=finite possible meaningful interactions (even assuming good designer)".
Are you intending to imply, though, Saskwach, that videogames are inferior?

Technically, in a perfect world, your statement is correct. Ignoring reality and player/developer skill for a moment. An RPG can be "deeper" in terms of realism, but it can't be as visceral. That's how I percieve it. Advantages and disadvantages making each worthy of my time.
I never meant to imply that videogames were worse in any objective sense, just as I wouldn't imply music is worse than poetry, or novels better than comics, because their form can use words better. There are many things videogames do better than RPGs, but where RPGs beat videogames hands down is in interactivity. I love videogames, but I want to be honest about what they fundamentally can't do.
 

FreelancerADP

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Why has no one mentioned Neverwinter Nights?

Didn't it allow DMs to run games? Create encounters? Dungeons? Dragons? All that?

I seem to recall that DMs could script out NPC encounters as well.

And referring back to the doorknob polishing: /e polishes a doorknob (a command found in a variety of graphic and text based games.)

Oh yeah- And what about text-based games? MU*s? Are the not videogames?
 

PedroSteckecilo

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Never Winter Nights was an attempt at bridging the gap and... it's okay. But let me use my best PnP Game as an example.

The PC's were special agents on board an airship tracking a scientist with a special artifact on the run from Evil Spies of an opposing nation. There was also a gang of theives chasing the scientist. By the end of the mission, the PC's had effectively lost (as I intended), the thieves had stolen the artifact and kidnapped the scientist, and the Airship had been overrun by Air-Pirates. But due to a few strange and risky choices, most notably one of the heroes leaping out of the airship onto an adjacent bandit skiff that had been set adrift and spotting the slowly escaping leader of the thieves, the entire game turned into a victory, with a super awesome mid-air brawl between the leaping hero and the leader of the thieves.

It was suprising, tense and cinematic. You just don't get non-scripted moments like this in videogames.
 

tobyornottoby

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Alex_P said:
A looooot of text

-- Alex
So how should it be done? :p

Some say narrative and interaction (games) are like oil and water, you just can't mix m. You say the simulation stands in the way of "exploiting the medium". It's the other way around too (as your "you should be able to, but for story's sake let's not allow you to make that headshot" proves).

What I see is that you're actually not happy with exploiting the medium games/interactive. Limited options (competencies sheet), Possibility (hero shot in the intro scene)

How would you combine oil & water? ^^;

PCs are still not capable of any real type of interactivity; the type in which any plausible solution can and will be allowed by the game.
Did you already explain somewhere why you believe that 'more choice -> real interactivity'? >.>
 

Alex_P

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tobyornottoby said:
So how should it be done? :p

Some say narrative and interaction (games) are like oil and water, you just can't mix m. You say the simulation stands in the way of "exploiting the medium". It's the other way around too (as your "you should be able to, but for story's sake let's not allow you to make that headshot" proves).
Let me summarize what you just said: some play goals are mutually incompatible. That's absolutely correct.

That's why I started off my posts with examples of different play goals and how video games and pen-and-paper games fulfill each one (or fail to, depending on how you look at it, I guess). For each one, there's a different answer to questions like "What can video games do for me?", "What can pen-and-paper games do for me?", and "Which medium is likely to be better for satisfying my particular preferences?"

This whole side topic about "story" is really about how it's often painted as the strong point of pen-and-paper gaming (and it is, if you look at the medium as a whole), but the mechanics of most RPGs actually strongly privilege some other play goal instead.

... Which I think is a bleedin' shame because the improvisational creation of shared story is where the pen-and-paper RPG medium has the most potential. Whereas a lot of other stuff you can do with a pen-and-paper roleplaying game can honestly be done better by something else, like a board or video game.

-- Alex
 

the fifth

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i like pnprpg because if you dont always do medevil stuff and go for the ones you make your self (ex. gurps) and you get enough wirdos in the story proces it can be the wildest trip ever. i was playing with some friends where i was chasing after a naked ranbow coloured chik who escaped from a lab and had like a sirens voice that made you love her. game disiners cant come up with everything so pnp ones give you the freedom to find stories others have made for this sort of thing and go off that. you have the imagination of the world because of the internet and can do anything. plus they dont cost 60$ for 4 hours of play maby 60$ for a bunch of dice but they will last forever pretty much.
 

tobyornottoby

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Alex_P said:
This whole side topic about "story" is really about how it's often painted as the strong point of pen-and-paper gaming (and it is, if you look at the medium as a whole), but the mechanics of most RPGs actually strongly privilege some other play goal instead.

... Which I think is a bleedin' shame because the improvisational creation of shared story is where the pen-and-paper RPG medium has the most potential. Whereas a lot of other stuff you can do with a pen-and-paper roleplaying game can honestly be done better by something else, like a board or video game.

-- Alex
I still don't get it ^^; I mean I still don't know how it should be done, how you want it.

So the mechanics privilege something else than the stroy, the biggest potyential of pnprpgs. So what to do about that? play without rules at all (know some forum-rpgs do that) or change certain mechanics (you mentioned the way of leveling skills up stood in the way of discovery of character for example?)

right now I don't see the problem. the mechanics of an pnprpg give me the rules of gameplay. The shared story comes fully from our own creativity, which is made possible/meaningful by the gameplay (without the gameplay mechanics, the creation of shared story would be less interesting) so I see no problem
 

Sihdhartha

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I really think the big difference is AI. Right now the AI in most games is not really that good and it is usually pretty easy to figure out how to out think the AI. Until they make a computer AI that is comparable to a good DM (or GM depending upon game) a P&P experience will always be superior.
 

Fenixius

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Tobyornnottoby said:
Right now I don't see the problem. the mechanics of a pnprpg give me the rules of gameplay. The shared story comes fully from our own creativity, which is made possible/meaningful by the gameplay (without the gameplay mechanics, the creation of shared story would be less interesting) so I see no problem.
The problem, as Alex is describing it, isn't necessarily one that you will agree with. Especially since you don't see it after he explained it.

What he's been trying to say is that the rules of the game don't help with the creation of story - in fact, they often hinder it. That's Alex's primary point, I believe. Which is sort of tricky, because it's not valid for every player.

If you just want a good way to play a game with your mates 'round, and you get to do some roleplaying, and stomp some monsters by rolling dice, then PnPRPG's are perfect for your needs. But what Alex is trying to say is that that isn't his idea of what PnPRPG's should be doing - they should be doing more than that. They should be allowing him to, with the help of the guys he has with him, create a story that's far superior to that of any Videogame to date. But they don't do that right now. Instead, we have systems that are very similar to desktop RPG's. In Alex's opinion, this is. I think. Alex, if I've misinterpreted, please, correct me, but that's what I see your point as being. That it's up to the player(s) to make the story happen, and the game doesn't actually help with that.

The problem that I see with what Alex is saying is that the solution is... either absurdly complex, absurdly simple and I can't see it, or it may not exist. Rules that govern the way you create a story are an interesting concept. I have absolutely no idea what an example of such rules might be. I just can't think of rules to govern that. There are obviously conventions and clichés that you can use when you make a story, but they're not necessarily limitations.

The thing is that in a good story, the protagonist(s) doesn't die horribly when he missrolls a dice, or is a hair off with his accuracy. Which is why Videogames have a respawn feature. PnPRPG's don't do that so much, from what I've played, which, admittedly, isn't a lot. But the idea of the PnPRPG, aside from story, in my opinion, is a way to have some good roleplaying going, which doesn't work in videogames. Yet.

And now I'm going to break into an in-depth example of how Mass Effect tried to do this, and didn't. It's long. So I've hidden it for you if you don't care.

Ask me how I think it's going in 5 years, when I'm playing Bioware's flagship title for the Xbox 1024. Because Mass Effect was a step in the right direction, as far as RP goes. They gave you 3 characters to be, instead of one. You got to pick a past, which was really awesome. It did some things which I've never seen done before in videogames, and it did some things better than I've seen done before in videogames.

The problems with Mass Effect are twofold, and, unfortunately, crippling. In my opinion, that is. Firstly, Mass Effect didn't step far enough in the RP direction. I can play as a hero-cop, a by-the-book-cop, or a bad-cop. That's cool. But I don't want to have to be a cop. I want to pick any job in that whole damn galaxy, and do it how I want to do it. I want more histories for my guy, I'd love to be able to choose my own surname (though I fully understand why I cannot, and it's a fair enough reason), and I'd love to choose my goal. And still have the game be cinematic.

Unfortunately, to accomplish this, you'd have to resort to emergent gameplay. Which is kind of what a PnPRPG does, but not quite. Instead of giving you a linear path through the game with a few choices, they'd have to build the whole damn galaxy, and everyone in it. Which is doable. See GTAIV for a pretty good shot at it. But what you can then not do is have a guaranteed cinematic storyline to go with it. You can't necessarily have that much drama in a completely non-linear and non-scripted story. In theory, you might get lucky and it'll work, but not every time. Not even most of the time. It's just insane to think that you can pack that much punch into every possible outcome. Which is why they didn't.

Which is why, in a PnPRPG, we have a DM who can think on the fly and come up with things that may have more drama than the game engine will come up with. Note that with a good DM, the chances of this increase. So on the first count - giving the player more freedom, they tried, but didn't come nearly close enough for my (or apparently Saskwach's) tastes.

I said before that the problems were twofold. The second is the god-awful combat system. Honestly, I'd be happier rolling dice than that clusterfuck of useless powers and terrible camera angles. Note that I'm quite happy to roll dice regardless, so I may be more than a little biassed there. Seriously, though, the shooting half of the game just isn't fun to play.

Exploring the galaxy was kind of cool. But it was far too samey from world to world. There weren't enough sentient things to talk to on random planets. The three story-quest rocks were cool, but honestly, not enough of that. I can see of course why they didn't put that much effort into every little speck in the stars you can land on, but it would have gone a loooooong way to making the game more entertaining. This ties back into the first problem - not enough awesome things can happen. With a DM, however, this is not so much the case. In theory, and I cannot stress that disclaimer enough, it's possible for the DM to make cool stuff happen anywhere, anytime. Again, this is just what's possible, not what's likely. But that's the standard that Saskwach is comparing with videogames, so I think it's fair call to use here.

And that's why Mass Effect didn't do enough. It was a step in the right direction, but not as far as I wanted it to be. And while it's lauded as a shining example of how far videogames have come, for me, it's also a reminder of how pale the medium is when compared with something more freeform. So unless anyone has some better ideas on how to make freeform videogames, or has ideas on how to come up with a ruleset for storywriting, that pretty much sums up my thoughts on this matter.
 

Alex_P

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tobyornottoby said:
I still don't get it ^^; I mean I still don't know how it should be done, how you want it.

So the mechanics privilege something else than the stroy, the biggest potyential of pnprpgs. So what to do about that? play without rules at all (know some forum-rpgs do that) or change certain mechanics (you mentioned the way of leveling skills up stood in the way of discovery of character for example?)

right now I don't see the problem. the mechanics of an pnprpg give me the rules of gameplay. The shared story comes fully from our own creativity, which is made possible/meaningful by the gameplay (without the gameplay mechanics, the creation of shared story would be less interesting) so I see no problem
You just answered your own question: "without the gameplay mechanics, the creation of shared story would be less interesting." Good story-supporting mechanics can take your game to places it wouldn't otherwise have reached.

Sure, there's no reason I can't play "freeform" and then create a bunch of informal rules that do all the important stuff myself, but that's just as much work as writing my own game.

If I pick up one of the big-name games and try to build a good framework on top of that, either formally or informally, that's actually even more work because I'm fighting the assumptions embedded in the system -- this is actually what a lot of "good GMs" are doing with all their GM techniques, in effect, and it's a big waste of their time.

Hmm, okay, in my next post I'll try to address the OP's comments about choices in conventional pen-and-paper roleplaying games...

-- Alex
 

SamuraiAndPig

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Rules and story go hand-in-hand, as far as I'm concerned. For example, in Ico, if you could just kill everything you saw like in most games, the storyline would be very different, but since the rules generally forbid you from doing so, the story takes a certains shape. The same holds true in PnP games.

D&D is really rules and combat heavy, so the storylines for it are fast-paced and actiony. Players always have the option to kill whatever is in front of them and can do it with generally assured success (provided the DM is running a balanced game of course.) Something like Vampire the Masquerade is really story-heavy. The rules are more abstract and fighting isn't micromanaged the way it is in D&D, so Vampire games tend to be more on the storytelling/making choices side. But in both cases, the rules are very clear, and work within the context of the game instead of managing it from the outside. Video games manage from the outside. There is a set of infallable, unbreakable (barring hacks/mods/etc.) rules that determine where you can go and what you can do. I mean, how many times have you run into invisible walls, even though there is tons of scenery beyond it?

EDIT: Very cool article: http://web.mit.edu/cms/People/henry3/games&narrative.html
 

tobyornottoby

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What he's been trying to say is that the rules of the game don't help with the creation of story - in fact, they often hinder it. That's Alex's primary point, I believe. Which is sort of tricky, because it's not valid for every player.
And I'm saying that's kind of a neccessary evil, so there's no point complaining about it (unless you have a better idea, which I'm trying to find out by asking)

The problem that I see with what Alex is saying is that the solution is... either absurdly complex, absurdly simple and I can't see it, or it may not exist.
yes, right now I'm thinking the latter :p

The thing is that in a good story, the protagonist(s) doesn't die horribly when he missrolls a dice, or is a hair off with his accuracy.
and this is why. because in a game, that person can die. That's the interactivity, the possibility, the choice, of gaming. That's in direct opposition with the narrative 'rule' that it 'shouldn't happen'

Alex_P said:
You just answered your own question: "without the gameplay mechanics, the creation of shared story would be less interesting." Good story-supporting mechanics can take your game to places it wouldn't otherwise have reached.

Sure, there's no reason I can't play "freeform" and then create a bunch of informal rules that do all the important stuff myself, but that's just as much work as writing my own game.

If I pick up one of the big-name games and try to build a good framework on top of that, either formally or informally, that's actually even more work because I'm fighting the assumptions embedded in the system -- this is actually what a lot of "good GMs" are doing with all their GM techniques, in effect, and it's a big waste of their time.

Hmm, okay, in my next post I'll try to address the OP's comments about choices in conventional pen-and-paper roleplaying games...

-- Alex
I haven't answered my question, "how would you do it". Like give me examples of story-supporting mechanics opposed to story-suppressing mechanics in pnprpgs :p
 

Fenixius

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Toby Ornottoby said:
...because in a game, that person [the protagonist] can die. That's the interactivity, the possibility, the choice, of gaming. That's in direct opposition with the narrative 'rule' that it 'shouldn't happen'.
Exactly. Gaming is pitting the player (and whatever elements of the game they control) against some sort of non-controlled opponent. Which may or may not be another player. From this, we have a challenge for the player, and it's not so much about how awesome a scene you can create, and how good you are at the game.

Stories, though, aren't pitting the player against a challenge, it's pitting a non-controlled character against a challenge. This does not seek to challenge someone's skill, it seeks to set up an entertaining scene or entertaining plotline. It's not about "can I do this?", it's about "Watch this."

And that's why I'm tending to agree you, Toby. These goals look pretty incompatible to me. Which saddens me, but it doesn't stop me from enjoying a game, or enjoying a story.

...I wonder what would happen if you pit TWO protagonists against one another. Both of them get the same plot shield. Both of them draw the same amount of sympathy from the reader... what the hell happens then? Is it a tie?

Oh, and I fully realise that your name is supposed to be: "To Buy Or Not To Buy", but since you spelt "buy" as "by", I'm calling you Toby Ornottoby.
 

Alex_P

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Tons of video games have a storyline where the player character lives to the end, but the player character is constantly getting killed while you're playing the game. They're totally both having their cake and eating it too.

That's the magic of save-and-reload.

...

Fenixius said:
...I wonder what would happen if you pit TWO protagonists against one another. Both of them get the same plot shield. Both of them draw the same amount of sympathy from the reader... what the hell happens then? Is it a tie?
Depends on your group's narrative expectations (genre, in other words). The "plot shield" thing itself is just a genre convention as well, after all -- it doesn't apply equally to all stories.

-- Alex
 

GloatingSwine

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Saskwach said:
Rule 0 of all RPGs: Any and all rules can be changed or disregarded as the DM sees fit. New rules can be attached and situations can even be resolved informally. If you're playing PnPs without Rule 0 then you're playing wrong.
The real point of rule 0 is to make sure that everyone has fun. That means you squash the latest thing that your resident rules lawyer has come up with that gives him an unfair edge because two splatbook writers didn't cross check whether they broke each other. Extensive house ruling just means you're playing the wrong system.