Police brutality: would you intervene?

[MammothBlade]

You are faced with a situation. A couple of police officers (confirmed identities) are clearly beating the shit out of a handcuffed person in about their twenties. You saw the whole thing and the victim did nothing wrong.

Personally, I would get someone filming the incident in clear view before warning these thugs in uniform and then trying my best to physically stop them if they refuse to listen.

Maybe the law would screw me over, too. Morally however, I would be completely in the right.

 

[senordesol]

Film them, that is all.

They have body armor. I don't.

They have billy clubs. I don't.

They have guns. I don't.

Take the fight to the public arena...where you're most likely to win.

 

[Luna]

Film them, that is all.

They have body armor. I don't.

They have billy clubs. I don't.

They have guns. I don't.

Take the fight to the public arena...where you're most likely to win.

This is a realistic outlook.

 

[Vegosiux]

Film them, report it to their superiors, and if nothing seems to happen, to the media.

This is a realistic outlook.

Off topic; but, uh, didn't I see you pop up as banned a few days ago?

 

[MammothBlade]

Film them, that is all.

They have body armor. I don't.

They have billy clubs. I don't.

They have guns. I don't.

Take the fight to the public arena...where you're most likely to win.

In the UK they don't. Also, if you live in the USA you likely have access to guns anyway.

The odds could easily be balanced out with a solid melee weapon with decent reach.

Also, this is about a life or death situation. The handcuffed person will die if you don't intervene.

 

[senordesol]

Film them, that is all.

They have body armor. I don't.

They have billy clubs. I don't.

They have guns. I don't.

Take the fight to the public arena...where you're most likely to win.

In the UK they don't. Also, if you live in the USA you likely have access to guns anyway.

The odds could easily be balanced out with a solid melee weapon with decent reach.

Also, this is about a life or death situation. The handcuffed person will die if you don't intervene.

Better him than me. What am I to accomplish by getting physically involved in the fight? What is the best case scenario, Hm? Even if I 'win' and leave the officers a pile of moaning humanity at my feet, what then? 30 years in a federal pen for two counts of assault on an officer (bear in mind, this is best case).

Also, I fear you might be overindulging the stereotype of American gun access. I own a shotgun, but I don't have a PDW -and we can't exactly get them out of vending machines, and even if we could, what then?- am I going to shoot two uniformed officers? Am I going to the death chamber for this clown? I don't think so.

 

[BathorysGraveland]

I would be walking in the opposite direction. No way am I going to (potentially) risk my life and well-being for someone I've never met and have no clue about. If it was family or a friend, then it'd be a different story.

 

[MammothBlade]

Film them, that is all.

They have body armor. I don't.

They have billy clubs. I don't.

They have guns. I don't.

Take the fight to the public arena...where you're most likely to win.

In the UK they don't. Also, if you live in the USA you likely have access to guns anyway.

The odds could easily be balanced out with a solid melee weapon with decent reach.

Also, this is about a life or death situation. The handcuffed person will die if you don't intervene.

Better him than me. What am I to accomplish by getting physically involved in the fight? What is the best case scenario, Hm? Even if I 'win' and leave the officers a pile of moaning humanity at my feet, what then? 30 years in a federal pen for two counts of assault on an officer (bear in mind, this is best case).

Also, I fear you might be overindulging the stereotype of American gun access. I own a shotgun, but I don't have a PDW -and we can't exactly get them out of vending machines, and even if we could, what then?- am I going to shoot two uniformed officers? Am I going to the death chamber for this clown? I don't think so.

I don't blame you for taking that attitude. From almost everything I've heard, the law and order system in the USA sounds f**ked up - police seem to be above the law.

It's not much better in the UK, but at least a media/public outrage campaign would have a reasonable chance at succeeding.

 

[senordesol]

Film them, that is all.

They have body armor. I don't.

They have billy clubs. I don't.

They have guns. I don't.

Take the fight to the public arena...where you're most likely to win.

In the UK they don't. Also, if you live in the USA you likely have access to guns anyway.

The odds could easily be balanced out with a solid melee weapon with decent reach.

Also, this is about a life or death situation. The handcuffed person will die if you don't intervene.

Better him than me. What am I to accomplish by getting physically involved in the fight? What is the best case scenario, Hm? Even if I 'win' and leave the officers a pile of moaning humanity at my feet, what then? 30 years in a federal pen for two counts of assault on an officer (bear in mind, this is best case).

Also, I fear you might be overindulging the stereotype of American gun access. I own a shotgun, but I don't have a PDW -and we can't exactly get them out of vending machines, and even if we could, what then?- am I going to shoot two uniformed officers? Am I going to the death chamber for this clown? I don't think so.

I don't blame you for taking that attitude. From almost everything I've heard, the law and order system in the USA sounds f**ked up - police seem to be above the law.

It's not much better in the UK, but at least a media/public outrage campaign would have a reasonable chance at succeeding.

This has nothing to do with America. It has nothing to do with them being 'above' the law here, it's about 'who gets to walk away'. I would turn the tape over to the media, that's for damn sure; and if they well-and-truly committed murder, they would definitely be facing criminal charges. But here's the thing: getting involved would cloud the issue. It would raise what we in the states call 'reasonable doubt'.

The courts always assume the police are in the right unless they've got strong evidence otherwise; and a videotape of police officers beating the shit out of a handcuffed man is strong evidence indeed. But if I were to get physically involved, that tape quickly becomes suspect. Assault on a police officer is criminal act in itself, one that is not looked upon to fondly by law enforcement officials...in any country, I expect.

 

[MammothBlade]

Film them, that is all.

They have body armor. I don't.

They have billy clubs. I don't.

They have guns. I don't.

Take the fight to the public arena...where you're most likely to win.

In the UK they don't. Also, if you live in the USA you likely have access to guns anyway.

The odds could easily be balanced out with a solid melee weapon with decent reach.

Also, this is about a life or death situation. The handcuffed person will die if you don't intervene.

Better him than me. What am I to accomplish by getting physically involved in the fight? What is the best case scenario, Hm? Even if I 'win' and leave the officers a pile of moaning humanity at my feet, what then? 30 years in a federal pen for two counts of assault on an officer (bear in mind, this is best case).

Also, I fear you might be overindulging the stereotype of American gun access. I own a shotgun, but I don't have a PDW -and we can't exactly get them out of vending machines, and even if we could, what then?- am I going to shoot two uniformed officers? Am I going to the death chamber for this clown? I don't think so.

I don't blame you for taking that attitude. From almost everything I've heard, the law and order system in the USA sounds f**ked up - police seem to be above the law.

It's not much better in the UK, but at least a media/public outrage campaign would have a reasonable chance at succeeding.

This has nothing to do with America. It has nothing to do with them being 'above' the law here, it's about 'who gets to walk away'. I would turn the tape over to the media, that's for damn sure; and if they well-and-truly committed murder, they would definitely be facing criminal charges. But here's the thing: getting involved would cloud the issue. It would raise what we in the states call 'reasonable doubt'.

The courts always assume the police are in the right unless they've got strong evidence otherwise; and a videotape of police officers beating the shit out of a handcuffed man is strong evidence indeed. But if I were to get physically involved, that tape quickly becomes suspect. Assault on a police officer is criminal act in itself, one that is not looked upon to fondly by law enforcement officials...in any country, I expect.

Well, that's a f**king shame - and I'd say brutal and corrupt police officers are very rarely held to account for their actions, police unions sticking up for their own, etc.

The moment they commit such acts, they should cease to have the legal protections of an on-duty officer of the law. It's not how it is, but it's how it should be.

 

[senordesol]

Well, that's a f**king shame - and I'd say brutal and corrupt police officers are very rarely held to account for their actions, police unions sticking up for their own, etc.

The moment they commit such acts, they should cease to have the legal protections of an on-duty officer of the law. It's not how it is, but it's how it should be.

Well the problem then becomes 'who gets to decide that'? Life as an LEO is hard enough without some legally ignorant citizen up and deciding that you are not a police officer anymore and are now fair game.

 

[MammothBlade]

Well, that's a f**king shame - and I'd say brutal and corrupt police officers are very rarely held to account for their actions, police unions sticking up for their own, etc.

The moment they commit such acts, they should cease to have the legal protections of an on-duty officer of the law. It's not how it is, but it's how it should be.

Well the problem then becomes 'who gets to decide that'? Life as an LEO is hard enough without some legally ignorant citizen up and deciding that you are not a police officer anymore and are now fair game.

The answer is not that police officers become fair game, but that it no longer becomes a crime to assault them when they are committing acts of brutality or corruption. Or maybe another work around could be that they are exempt from the charge "assaulting a police officer in the line of duty"- as their duties surely do not include beating a subdued prisoner to the brink of death.

There are so many absurdities built into the law which mean that crooks in uniform continue to "serve" for a very long time.

 

[twistedmic]

You saw the whole thing and the victim did nothing wrong.

Personally, I would get someone filming the incident in clear view before warning these thugs in uniform and then trying my best to physically stop them if they refuse to listen.

Maybe the law would screw me over, too. Morally however, I would be completely in the right.

The suspect may not have done anything wrong during that incident (or nothing you precieve as wrong) but there's no way to know that he never commited a crime in his life. Maybe he is a drug dealer/pusher or a murderer or sexual predator. Maybe the suspect is a terrorist or gang member. Maybe the suspect made threatening movements or comments.

Stepping in and trying to physically stop the cops would be a crime, possibly more than one (Assaulting an Officer, Obstruction of Justice, Interfering in a Police Matter, Aiding and Abetting a Criminal etc.).

 

[Heronblade]

You don't attempt to physically intervene.

Film the incident, inform others of what is going on and/or verbally warn the officers in question. Don't be an idiot and rush in.

 

[Rawne1980]

Stand near someone filming it and watch.

Wait until video pops up on Youtube and tell my kids i'm on film ... look, that's me waving like a moron.

I live in Burnley, it's a pretty common sight to see someone having the crap beaten out of me by someone so it's hardly news worthy here.

 

[MammothBlade]

You saw the whole thing and the victim did nothing wrong.

Personally, I would get someone filming the incident in clear view before warning these thugs in uniform and then trying my best to physically stop them if they refuse to listen.

Maybe the law would screw me over, too. Morally however, I would be completely in the right.

The suspect may not have done anything wrong during that incident (or nothing you precieve as wrong) but there's no way to know that he never commited a crime in his life. Maybe he is a drug dealer/pusher or a murderer or sexual predator. Maybe the suspect is a terrorist or gang member. Maybe the suspect made threatening movements or comments.

Stepping in and trying to physically stop the cops would be a crime, possibly more than one (Assaulting an Officer, Obstruction of Justice, Interfering in a Police Matter, Aiding and Abetting a Criminal etc.).

Like I said before, those may well all be in effect, but it shouldn't be a crime to call out officers for breaking the law themselves. Obstruction of justice, my arse is it "justice" to punish a suspect extrajudicially. Interfering in a police matter? What a lovely vague phrase to shield corrupt police. Aiding and abetting a criminal? Hardly, just stopping them from being beaten to death without a fair trial.

Even so, I've seen everything at hand - the person did not resist arrest, they did not fight back. It doesn't matter, the police should not be beating anyone beyond force necessary to subdue them. It isn't their job to beat suspects, no matter what they are accused of - sure, in exceptional circumstances good police officers flip out and beat some really nasty criminals who they know are going to get off the hook - but police beatings are by no means exceptional.