Police brutality: would you intervene?

[CaptainMarvelous]

I'm going with film the whole thing and, despite the advice of the post above me, I'd announce it too, loudly and with a running start. And I can also provide a news story why I'd run the risk

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/05/kelly-thomas-charges-third-officer.html

The beating of Kelly Thomas, pretty apty matches OP's scenario and seemed to play it the same way most of us thought we'd handle it so yeah :-/.

Still,

How the hell do you go from "beating the shit out of" to "life-death situation"?
How would you know it is one? Are you a clairvoyant or something? You can't tell.
Also, how do you even know the person is "innocent"? Because "you saw the victim do nothing wrong"? Fucking. Please.

This scenario is almost as ridiculous as all those wannabe tough-guys who state they would totally attack and kill the policemen as if that is the solution to this non-specific, most generic scenario ever that leaves an ocean of variables open.
If you seriously thing there's nothing wrong with the sentiment of "Hell yeah, if I kinda feel like that guy is innocent and I guess it may be a life-death situation, I'd totally pick something sharp up and kill the police!" you're probably dangerous and should turn yourself in.
Goes to show how much internet forums have to do with reality, really.

Ridiculous scenario right? Hope you're up for youtubing the video of someone who filmed the beatdown of Kelly Thomas. Incidentally, I may be wrong but, I don't THINK being a homeless schizophrenic deserves the Death Penalty?

 

[loa]

Ridiculous scenario right? Hope you're up for youtubing the video of someone who filmed the beatdown of Kelly Thomas. Incidentally, I may be wrong but, I don't THINK being a homeless schizophrenic deserves the Death Penalty?

Please don't reply to me if you ignore or can't understand the points I made.

 

[BringBackBuck]

Let the officers know you are filming them? Hell no. You might end up with a gun being pointed at your head too. American cops scare the shit out of me...

 

[CaptainMarvelous]

Ridiculous scenario right? Hope you're up for youtubing the video of someone who filmed the beatdown of Kelly Thomas. Incidentally, I may be wrong but, I don't THINK being a homeless schizophrenic deserves the Death Penalty?

Please don't reply to me if you ignore or can't understand the points I made.

I follow your points, that's a rebuttal. It's a scenario which you earlier decried as being ridiculous and I illustrated is entirely feasible with a quoted source, wherein someone is being beaten (to death in fact) for no legitimate cause. Your points as it stood were "You can't know that this beating is going to end in a death" and "You can't know they don't deserve it" with the implication that the victim could both deserve the beating and won't die from it. I'm merely saying the inverse is true, you can't know they WON'T kill him or that he DOESN'T deserve it. So at the very least some form of intervention is neccessary unless you want to be complicit in the fact. Admittedly, sarcasm was probably not the best way to convey this opinion. I actually agree that attempting to kill the officers is the height of stupidity so didn't address it.

Incidentally, on topic, what would your reaction be? If you saw some police officers beating a man in hand-cuffs, no other context just a guy in restraint being beaten with batons.

 

[Saltyk]

I'd find something sharp and kill the policemen before they could kill the innocent. Hey, I always wanted to be an assassin that fought for truth and justice, may as well start there.

In that case, after killing the police, you should turn yourself in to the local authorities. And then get ready to receive the same exact treatment that the guy you tried to save received, but far worse. The police don't take kindly to someone murdering other cops. Which is what you would have done. Good job, Champ! You're a regular superhero.

Why would I turn myself in to the cops exactly?

You seriously don't understand how killing cops (even ones who are beating a person) is wrong? Yeah... I don't think there is anything to gain in continuing this conversation. Goodbye.

And you seriously don't think injustice is wrong? Besides, I was only joking. Realistically in that situation I would turn tail and run for the hills.

What you had suggested, is not justice. If you even think it was, then you have no business discussing the topic. I support the death penalty and even I think you went too far in your comment.

 

[The Last Nomad]

Depends if I know the victim.
If not I'd probably throw something at them anyway and run for it. Get at least one of them to take their attention away from him and I'd likely get away.

If I knew the victim (and they were my friend), then

 

[loa]

I actually agree that attempting to kill the officers is the height of stupidity so didn't address it.

There you go.
For a moment there I thought you tried defending that because that was my main point; you don't fully know what is going on (you never do until afterwards) so a drastic reaction like that is just completely over the top.

Incidentally, on topic, what would your reaction be? If you saw some police officers beating a man in hand-cuffs, no other context just a guy in restraint being beaten with batons.

Well, I don't know anything at all about the situation then.
All I see is the police beating a cuffed person.
Am I alone? Are other people there?
For how long have they been doing it?
Did the cuffed person try to break free?
I have no handy camera so filming isn't an option.

Perhaps I would ask them what is going on here. If everything is okay.
That would communicate to them that there's a witness now if there wasn't one before but in a way that would make it unlikely for them to turn on me which, I guess, I would have to fear if I'm the only guy there.

If they'll go on anyway the next step would probably be calling an ambulance?
I would just sum up what I see and that that guy definitely needs medical attention now. Which he does.
It's recorded then. Can be used against the police officers if needed.

That's probably all I can realistically do.

The last thing I'd do is acting aggressive in any way because I kinda like my limbs intact and it wouldn't really solve anything anyway.

 

[Vanitas likes Bubbles]

I'd find something sharp and kill the policemen before they could kill the innocent. Hey, I always wanted to be an assassin that fought for truth and justice, may as well start there.

In that case, after killing the police, you should turn yourself in to the local authorities. And then get ready to receive the same exact treatment that the guy you tried to save received, but far worse. The police don't take kindly to someone murdering other cops. Which is what you would have done. Good job, Champ! You're a regular superhero.

Why would I turn myself in to the cops exactly?

You seriously don't understand how killing cops (even ones who are beating a person) is wrong? Yeah... I don't think there is anything to gain in continuing this conversation. Goodbye.

And you seriously don't think injustice is wrong? Besides, I was only joking. Realistically in that situation I would turn tail and run for the hills.

What you had suggested, is not justice. If you even think it was, then you have no business discussing the topic. I support the death penalty and even I think you went too far in your comment.

Then what is justice nowadays? Anyway, I see what you mean, killing people for the sake of killing people would not be justice, as Ghandi said, "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind". Sorry if my comment offended you by the way.

 

[CaptainMarvelous]

Well, I don't know anything at all about the situation then.
All I see is the police beating a cuffed person.
Am I alone? Are other people there?
For how long have they been doing it?
Did the cuffed person try to break free?
I have no handy camera so filming isn't an option.

Perhaps I would ask them what is going on here. If everything is okay.
That would communicate to them that there's a witness now if there wasn't one before but in a way that would make it unlikely for them to turn on me which, I guess, I would have to fear if I'm the only guy there.

If they'll go on anyway the next step would probably be calling an ambulance?
I'd say what I see, that that guy definitely needs medical attention now.
It's recorded then. Can be used against the police officers if needed.

That's probably all I can realistically do.

The last thing I'd do is acting aggressive in any way because I kinda like my limbs intact.

It seems we're in agreement about what the appropriate course of action should be, calling the ambulance is something I didn't think of but should be a priority if the beating looks to be continued. All honesty, that's the best answer in the thread so far IMO so kudos. Except for the guy who said he'd talk them down with his charisma, I kinda liked that one.

 

[MammothBlade]

Film them, that is all.

They have body armor. I don't.

They have billy clubs. I don't.

They have guns. I don't.

Take the fight to the public arena...where you're most likely to win.

In the UK they don't. Also, if you live in the USA you likely have access to guns anyway.

The odds could easily be balanced out with a solid melee weapon with decent reach.

Also, this is about a life or death situation. The handcuffed person will die if you don't intervene.

Don't say things you don't know. Yes, one can buy a gun in the US, but that does not mean every single house and every single person has access to one. Hell, most places have a 15-day waiting period and a thorough background check before you can get one.

Also, the notion that if you had a melee weapon you could take on a group of police officers is laughable. It's you against a group of trained police officers, so unless you know how to defend yourself against 3,4, maybe even 5 or more police officers armed with batons, you're going to end up on the ground just like the person you were trying to protect. The notion of wanting to protect them was brave, but the method was foolish and only puts your life at risk.

Like previously mentioned, one's best option is to film it and take it to the police, the news, the local papers, anyone who can and will investigate the actions of the officers.

I am aware of that. There are those who don't own guns at all... still, for the purpose of argument, there is a force equaliser readily available.

In this case, there are only two officers. I only stated "a couple" in the OP.

In the UK I think that if the police are breaking the law in their work then you are aloud to use reasonable force to stop them depending on the situation. If they search you without following procedure then they arent viewed as police as they arent behaving within code and therefore you can resist without it being viewed as resisting the police if that makes sense. The problem with any intervention would be with the police themselves as they have shown that they help each other out when they get in trouble like this. I would say film it and dont tell them or tell them to stop followed by intervention, though this would only apply in my country because the law allows it. If you tell them your filming they will take your camera and might charge you for some made up crime. If you cant do that then tell the police and the media one will most likely listen, but keep your identity secret. Nothing is granted when the law breaks the law.

Thank heavens I live in the UK. You can be arrested for silly things here, but it sounds as if the USA really has a police state going on, the disparity between the responses of Americans and Brits is interesting.

 

[ablac]

Film them, that is all.

They have body armor. I don't.

They have billy clubs. I don't.

They have guns. I don't.

Take the fight to the public arena...where you're most likely to win.

In the UK they don't. Also, if you live in the USA you likely have access to guns anyway.

The odds could easily be balanced out with a solid melee weapon with decent reach.

Also, this is about a life or death situation. The handcuffed person will die if you don't intervene.

Don't say things you don't know. Yes, one can buy a gun in the US, but that does not mean every single house and every single person has access to one. Hell, most places have a 15-day waiting period and a thorough background check before you can get one.

Also, the notion that if you had a melee weapon you could take on a group of police officers is laughable. It's you against a group of trained police officers, so unless you know how to defend yourself against 3,4, maybe even 5 or more police officers armed with batons, you're going to end up on the ground just like the person you were trying to protect. The notion of wanting to protect them was brave, but the method was foolish and only puts your life at risk.

Like previously mentioned, one's best option is to film it and take it to the police, the news, the local papers, anyone who can and will investigate the actions of the officers.

I am aware of that. There are those who don't own guns at all... still, for the purpose of argument, there is a force equaliser readily available.

In this case, there are only two officers. I only stated "a couple" in the OP.

In the UK I think that if the police are breaking the law in their work then you are aloud to use reasonable force to stop them depending on the situation. If they search you without following procedure then they arent viewed as police as they arent behaving within code and therefore you can resist without it being viewed as resisting the police if that makes sense. The problem with any intervention would be with the police themselves as they have shown that they help each other out when they get in trouble like this. I would say film it and dont tell them or tell them to stop followed by intervention, though this would only apply in my country because the law allows it. If you tell them your filming they will take your camera and might charge you for some made up crime. If you cant do that then tell the police and the media one will most likely listen, but keep your identity secret. Nothing is granted when the law breaks the law.

Thank heavens I live in the UK. You can be arrested for silly things here, but it sounds as if the USA really has a police state going on, the disparity between the responses of Americans and Brits is interesting.

Actually both forces are pretty good and fair on the whole. What people dont realise is that the police are used to dealing with criminals, that tends to warp ones mind to automatically treat everyone who isnt police as a criminal. Did you see how viscious the police were towards student protesters over here? We dont live in a police state, people really dont seem to get what that actually means, and whilst not perfect we can trust the police on the whole. If we take an automatic disliking and distrust to the police they will think the same as us, thats why I always feel any protest group should try its hardest to be on the polices good side, occupy was treated harshly because it was uncooperative and became a real problem for them, just an example. I was simply saying that the law doesnt protect police who break their code and thus stop being police, however nothing is a given because its naive to rely on the police to police the police.

 

[Captain Anon]

Depends on the circumstances.


Ohh-h-h-h fuck yes-s-s-s-s!

*ORGASM*

lolololololol that what you get if you do that in stadium of over 100 people anyway yeah i would intervene no hesitation what so even rugby tackling the first guy i think is closest and then kung fuing the crap out of the other one it be kramra for beating that guy up

 

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

Warning. This video shows the harsh ending of a man's normal life.


The civilian is Christopher Harris. The guy is Dept Matt Paul. This happened in Seattle literally 3 years ago today. (May 10, 2009). Christopher Harris has never walked again, never fed himself again, probably never will.

While the city 'paid' for the man's pain, Matt Paul still is on the force.

Here's my response to those who say 'You're going to make officers afraid to do their jobs'

Good.

I live in New York state. A suburb of New York Metro Area. As a child, a 16 year old boy, I was held up by three undercover cops and had everything on my body looked through. all because I was running. Running. To catch the last train to Westchester or I would have been stuck in the Bronx all night.

I've had cops admit that 'people who look like me' put them on edge for situations that they've been in or simply heard about.

I get the job is hard. I took the test and my local PD is looking to interview me. But because the job is hard doesn't excuse injustice. It does not excuse mistakes. Have you tried to talk a cop out of a ticket because you made a mistake? Sorry, officer, I didn't see the red light. It was a mistake. Do we really need to give me a ticket?

Yes. Yes, because Mistake or not, you messed up. This will make you more aware of it. But it seems that Police Officers don't seem to think the same rules apply to them. When they make mistakes, they ruin lives. It's really as simple as that. Police ticket us for traffic violations because these incidents have the potential for ruining lives, so it must be taken seriously.

But if it is the police actually doing life changing occurrences, the public has to understand that they are human and they will make mistakes. They'll get a slap on the risk and maybe moved to light duty for a bit, all the while the family of the victim will never be the same. From as minor as never feeling comfortable with calling the police again to as major as never seeing a loved one again. How can ANYONE expect us to calmly live under that?

My teacher's father was killed in his home (google Kenneth Chamberlain Sr) by a cop. Mr. Chamberlain accidentally pressed his medic alarm, called the company and said he was alright, had the company call the WPPD saying that it was ok.

The WPPD ignored the medic alarm company, the police officers insisted on coming in even after Mr. Chamberlain insisted he was fine, they broke down the door, said he was brandishing a weapon, and tasered him, and shot him dead before he even hit the floor. Mr. Chamberlain was a 68 year old retired Marine who was pleading for his life.

This happened last year. The end of last year. Late in April, we finally learned the officer's name. I was walking around the streets of my city without knowing if the cop walking near me or driving by looking at me was the man who fatally shot my teacher's father.

If you never lived it, you do not know what it's like. To have an organization devoted to covering up their mistakes, hand waving them, and saying it's for the good of the public. Because if they didn't cover up or excuse these gross injustices of humanity, who would step up and police?

I think by that logic, they brought up another question: do we really want the type of people who willfully take the lives of others and base it lower than their own to have all the policing power?

 

[Fappy]

Warning. This video shows the harsh ending of a man's normal life.


The civilian is Christopher Harris. The guy is Dept Matt Paul. This happened in Seattle literally 3 years ago today. (May 10, 2009). Christopher Harris has never walked again, never fed himself again, probably never will.

While the city 'paid' for the man's pain, Matt Paul still is on the force.

Here's my response to those who say 'You're going to make officers afraid to do their jobs'

Good.

I live in New York state. A suburb of New York Metro Area. As a child, a 16 year old boy, I was held up by three undercover cops and had everything on my body looked through. all because I was running. Running. To catch the last train to Westchester or I would have been stuck in the Bronx all night.

I've had cops admit that 'people who look like me' put them on edge for situations that they've been in or simply heard about.

I get the job is hard. I took the test and my local PD is looking to interview me. But because the job is hard doesn't excuse injustice. It does not excuse mistakes. Have you tried to talk a cop out of a ticket because you made a mistake? Sorry, officer, I didn't see the red light. It was a mistake. Do we really need to give me a ticket?

Yes. Yes, because Mistake or not, you messed up. This will make you more aware of it. But it seems that Police Officers don't seem to think the same rules apply to them. When they make mistakes, they ruin lives. It's really as simple as that. Police ticket us for traffic violations because these incidents have the potential for ruining lives, so it must be taken seriously.

But if it is the police actually doing life changing occurrences, the public has to understand that they are human and they will make mistakes. They'll get a slap on the risk and maybe moved to light duty for a bit, all the while the family of the victim will never be the same. From as minor as never feeling comfortable with calling the police again to as major as never seeing a loved one again. How can ANYONE expect us to calmly live under that?

My teacher's father was killed in his home (google Kenneth Chamberlain Sr) by a cop. Mr. Chamberlain accidentally pressed his medic alarm, called the company and said he was alright, had the company call the WPPD saying that it was ok.

The WPPD ignored the medic alarm company, the police officers insisted on coming in even after Mr. Chamberlain insisted he was fine, they broke down the door, said he was brandishing a weapon, and tasered him, and shot him dead before he even hit the floor. Mr. Chamberlain was a 68 year old retired Marine who was pleading for his life.

This happened last year. The end of last year. Late in April, we finally learned the officer's name. I was walking around the streets of my city without knowing if the cop walking near me or driving by looking at me was the man who fatally shot my teacher's father.

If you never lived it, you do not know what it's like. To have an organization devoted to covering up their mistakes, hand waving them, and saying it's for the good of the public. Because if they didn't cover up or excuse these gross injustices of humanity, who would step up and police?

I think by that logic, they brought up another question: do we really want the type of people who willfully take the lives of others and base it lower than their own to have all the policing power?

I try my best to show some ounce of respect for the police in this country but it is a real struggle. Like many people my age in the US we've had our fair share of fun adventures with the cops and I have tried not to let that paint my entire view of them. But lets face it, when a large majority of your interactions with law enforcement officers has been negative (which goes for most people in the US for obvious reasons) its hard to take an objective stance. I know the type of people the job attracts. I had a college roommate who wanted to be a cop and showed all of the negative personality traits that we often think of when we think of police in this country. My girlfriend thinks that many officers have criminal mindsets but operate on the other side of the law... I find it hard to argue with that idea.

And just a disclaimer to throw out there: I have met some really awesome cops before, but in my experience they are in the minority. I had one drive me to class after my friend got into a car wreck, he was a cool guy and showed me what all the buttons in the cruiser did.

 

[NinjaRabies]

Get someone filming, jump into the frey and try to avoid serious trauma on both sides. That's the ideal action for me. I would most likely get beaten to shit along with the one I try to help and put in prison too.

 

[backinthepresentfuture]

if i had a gun i wouldn't hesitate to execute both officers. leave the prisoner to help himself.