Police raids punk concert - "spiritualy cleanses" attendees

[CoL0sS]

So, as I was enjoying my morning coffee I came across this "news". Note that it's 2 days old, but since I don't keep up with recent stuff I was rather surprised.

To recap, Police in Aceh (conservative province of Indonesia; only one with imposed Islamic laws) raided a punk-rock concert and arrested 64 attendees under no clear charges. They were than taken to police camp for "reeducation" where they cut their hair, removed their jewelry and thrown them into river for "spiritual cleansing". Those young men and women will be detained 10 days for "rehabilitation", including religious classes and military-style training.

Local police chief Iskandar Hasan said: "We're not torturing anyone. We're not violating human rights. We're just trying to put them back on the right moral path."

I have strong dislike (alright, hatred) for self-righteous, religious nutcases showing their beliefs down everyone's throat so it's hard for me to be objective (I'm also a big fan of punk music and culture). I also understand Islam is religion with rather traditional and conservative views, that frowns on most things that aren't specified in their Holy Book but this seems really unnecessary. Couldn't they just chase them off or something instead of violating their human rights of gathering and expression by means of religious brainwashing?

I googled it and came across several threads, mostly on music sites so here's a [a href=http://eatthis.inmusic.ca/2011/12/indonesian-police-raid-punk-concert-round-up-fans-for-reeducation.html]link[/a] to one.

Opinions?


DISCLAIMER (Ubisoft style ) - I respect all religions, and don't judge them by actions of people who practice them. Since I'm not a big believer I don't claim to know anything about Islam (or any other religion for that matter)

 

[Vicarious Reality]

I am trying to recall when i last heard about atheists doing something like this...

 

[Lilani]

I am trying to recall when i last heard about atheists doing something like this...

Doing violent or ignorant things are inexcusable, regardless of their reasoning. Taking cheap-shots at religion in general for the actions of one individual group in one individual place is insipid.

Let's say I live on a street. In my street, everybody treats each other nice, and we have no problems at all. We help the community and those among us in need whenever possible. But then, let's say there's another street in another town with the same name as ours. They do things a bit differently...they're mean, they're rude, they're unwelcoming, and they always cause problems for others who just want to be left alone. Should myself and the people on my street be blamed for what happens on their street? The only thing we have in common is the unfortunate matter of our names. Our streets have different people run and we make decisions totally separate from the other street.

I say this because I tell people I'm a Christian, and they go on a rant telling me how homophobic, intolerant, conservative, sexist, and hateful I am. Where I have no problem with gays legally or religiously, I'm pro-choice, I believe everybody should be welcome in church regardless of background, being a female myself soon entering a committee in the church I believe women have every right to be there (unlike the Vatican, which I have so many issues with that could take its own post), I tend to lean more liberal, and I believe the last thing any Christian should be is hateful. Regardless of what you think of anyone religiously, they should always be welcome, and being in the us our values based on religion do not have any place being in law. It's exactly the kind of religious-state the founding fathers never wanted.

So go ahead. Please. Tell me I'm a part of the problem. Tell me I'm hateful, mean, and a bigot. I'll apologize for all the mission trips I've gone on, building porches for people, painting their houses, and cleaning up after disasters. I'll take back all the money I've given to the United Methodist church, which when it isn't going for church upkeep goes to our other outreach projects, including hundreds of sister churches in Mozambique and well-drilling in their towns. I'll tell my college worship group I won't be attending the trip to Joplin, Missouri we're going to this January to help finish building a house for someone, so they can finally move out of the hotel they've been in since the beginning of the year. I'll cancel all of that and never participate again. Clearly my religious motivations are only hurting people. Clearly I need to stop acting in the name of my God, as it can only cause pain and misery. Clearly anything I try to do for this God is in the name of hate. Oh, yes. I can see it now. I'm no better than suicide bombers. This is just unacceptable.

 

[CoL0sS]

I say this because I tell people I'm a Christian, and they go on a rant telling me how homophobic, intolerant, conservative, sexist, and hateful I am.

Yeah I know what you mean. In my country Christianity is a major religion (around 80%) so it's always funny when some people jump to conclusion that I, as a Christian (albeit a bad one) should have same beliefs as them (about homosexuals, abortion, Muslims etc.). Fuck that, I think they're sheep, using God/Bible/Christianity to justify irrational hatreds, and I'd never be so bold to think "that's what God would have wanted". Still, despite my strong dislike for Catholic church I still try not to judge those people (too much ) cause in the end, that would make me same as them. And I really like feeling superior to them

 

[aegix drakan_v1legacy]

*facepalm*

......This is why I have extremists. When people take their personal feelings/faiths/opinions/etc too far, it screws up everything.

And these guys actually believed they weren't violating human rights? That they were just "helping people onto the moral path"? For attending a !@#$ing PUNK ROCK CONCERT? Yeah, sorry, but there are words to describe people like that, and none of them are good. Freakin' idiots...

*Please note that I have nothing against religion in general, I only have a problem with individuals who abuse it and take it to extremes.*

 

[Lilani]

I say this because I tell people I'm a Christian, and they go on a rant telling me how homophobic, intolerant, conservative, sexist, and hateful I am.

Yeah I know what you mean. In my country Christianity is a major religion (around 80%) so it's always funny when some people jump to conclusion that I, as a Christian (albeit a bad one) should have same beliefs as them (about homosexuals, abortion, Muslims etc.). Fuck that, I think they're sheep, using God/Bible/Christianity to justify irrational hatreds, and I'd never be so bold to think "that's what God would have wanted". Still, despite my strong dislike for Catholic church I still try not to judge those people (too much ) cause in the end, that would make me same as them. And I really like feeling superior to them

Yeah, and I think a lot of it comes from must misconceptions about how churches work. People who have never attended many churches, if any at all, and aren't familiar with how they work don't seem to realize that

A) Different denominations have different, often radically different, beliefs and ways they function. For example, the Catholic church practices closed communion and doesn't (usually) have women in their leadership, the United Methodist church practices open communion and has no problem with women in any position of leadership, and the Baptist church usually doesn't really have communion at all and their position on women widely varies by region (most of the Baptist churches in my area have no problem with women, but my ex boyfriend knew of a Baptist church further down south where women couldn't even speak in the church).

B) Individual churches function on a very individual basis, and the values and environments they cultivate vary according to leadership, the congregation, and the region in which they are located (for example, the Wikipedia page for United Methodism says that the UM church believes homosexuality and Christianity are incompatible. However, both my hometown UM church and the UM church my brother attends have positive stances toward homosexuality. My brother's church has even had meetings on how to welcome homosexuals into the church, to show them that there's a church that has no problem with who they are).

C) The individuals themselves can believe different things than the church they attend. For example, the older people in the UM churches I know tend to have problems with the more "liberal" ideals, such as gays, abortion, wearing casual clothes to church, etc. There's even a bit of squabble in the church I attend at the moment regarding the clothing. Apparently, some of the old people want to make public announcements encouraging people to "wear their Sunday best" because the college students and young adults tend to wear jeans, tennis shoes, T-shirts, etc. Of course that's just petty and rude, God doesn't care if you show up to church in tennis shoes or a three-piece suit as long as you're there for him. But that's how their generation was raised, and so our head pastor is sort of caught in the middle between keeping the traditional congregation and peace and being welcoming and open to young and new members (who are slowly becoming the life-blood of the church, as they get a bit older and enter leadership positions).

Christianity and churches are really a lot more complicated and varied than people give them credit for. Of course that has a lot to do with the media and general ignorance and hatred, but with how hateful and obnoxious some people get, I can hardly blame others for getting a bit angry at religion in general. Of course we have to work on our end, too--I sometimes get resentful feelings when people talk about being an atheist because I've met and I know so many smug/obnoxious atheists who also generalize, but if I want people to live and let live I know I must do the same.

 

[everythingbeeps]

This is the future of America, folks.

I say this because I tell people I'm a Christian, and they go on a rant telling me how homophobic, intolerant, conservative, sexist, and hateful I am.

Well they shouldn't be doing that. They should go on a rant telling you how homophobic, intolerant, conservative, sexist, and hateful your religion thinks you should be.

If you're not, that's good to hear, but I wonder if your church leaders would feel the same.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

I am trying to recall when i last heard about atheists doing something like this...

Go check out how the atheist CCP is treating the Tibetan people and how their oppressing the Tibetan culture/Tibetan form of Buddhism. Also look at how the atheist run CCP abducted the future Dali Lama and the CCP "appointed" the new future Dali Lama.

Given human nature being what it is, attributes like oppression, abuse of power, propaganda, intolerance, and discrimination are hardly unique to a single community.

 

[Lilani]

This is the future of America, folks.

I say this because I tell people I'm a Christian, and they go on a rant telling me how homophobic, intolerant, conservative, sexist, and hateful I am.

Well they shouldn't be doing that. They should go on a rant telling you how homophobic, intolerant, conservative, sexist, and hateful your religion thinks you should be.

If you're not, that's good to hear, but I wonder if your church leaders would feel the same.

I put another post above yours there that pretty much covers all of that, or at least the leadership part.

As for the "what my religion thinks I should be" part, either we're talking about different religions or you're in possession of some of that nasty misinformation I was talking about. My religion tells me everyone has and will sin, and nobody is above that, but it's okay because we have a way to own up to those and gain forgiveness through Jesus. My religion teaches kindness and toleration, even to those we might disagree with or who live different lives from us--heck, my religion encourages us to interact with these people. My religion encourages helping others, even when it may not be convenient for you or if the people you help don't hold the same beliefs and values of you. My religion encourages a positive relationship with God, and that the results of that relationship should be positive and never negative.

I'm not sure what religion you're talking about, but I assure you if it's so bad, it's not mine.

 

[everythingbeeps]

This is the future of America, folks.

I say this because I tell people I'm a Christian, and they go on a rant telling me how homophobic, intolerant, conservative, sexist, and hateful I am.

Well they shouldn't be doing that. They should go on a rant telling you how homophobic, intolerant, conservative, sexist, and hateful your religion thinks you should be.

If you're not, that's good to hear, but I wonder if your church leaders would feel the same.

I put another post above yours there that pretty much covers all of that, or at least the leadership part.

As for the "what my religion thinks I should be" part, either we're talking about different religions or you're in possession of some of that nasty misinformation I was talking about. My religion tells me everyone has and will sin, and nobody is above that, but it's okay because we have a way to own up to those and gain forgiveness through Jesus. My religion teaches kindness and toleration, even to those we might disagree with or who live different lives from us--heck, my religion encourages us to interact with these people. My religion encourages helping others, even when it may not be convenient for you or if the people you help don't hold the same beliefs and values of you. My religion encourages a positive relationship with God, and that the results of that relationship should be positive and never negative.

I'm not sure what religion you're talking about, but I assure you if it's so bad, it's not mine.

If your religion is Christianity, and they still tout the Bible as the word of God, then your religion is all of those things we mentioned and far more. If they aren't, they need to make up their damn mind about that abhorrent book.

 

[Lilani]

If your religion is Christianity, and they still tout the Bible as the word of God, then your religion is all of those things we mentioned and far more. If they aren't, they need to make up their damn mind about that abhorrent book.

Oh, here we go again. You're making assumptions how both my "religion" and myself interpret, feel about, and use the Bible.

First of all, I'm going to restate what I said in my first two posts in this thread (if you haven't already read them, I suggest you do, otherwise you mike make even more hasty assumptions that do not apply to me in the least)--again, all religions, denominations, individual churches, and individuals within the churches widely vary in beliefs and interpretations of things, and it would serve you well to begin with questions rather than assumptions. Rather than telling me what I believe and how I feel about it, try asking first. Learning what people think before telling them what they should think is a much healthier way to approach life and learn about things along the way.

Secondly, here's how I feel about the Bible. I don't believe it's a "rulebook," as both Christians and Atheists alike like to tell me I think it is. I am quite aware it is a collection of documents and stories written by many MANY authors, each of which with different purposes and audiences in mind when they wrote them. I'm aware that, though most of it is divinely inspired and with good intentions in mind, it's also possible some of the "rules" within it were simply products of the society at the time. I'm aware that, over the years, it has been translated, re-translated, transcribed, and copied again and again. I'm aware that most of the original documents the Bible is based on are gone. I'm aware that, over the years, many parts have been altered or omitted altogether to serve the purposes of the people who commissioned the books to be made. And I'm aware that, due to the varied origins, translations, and intended purposes of the documents, many parts are quite contradictory.

For example, the first four books of the Bible (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, and Numbers) are actually the entire Jewish Torah. Should we follow the laws in there explicitly? Well not exactly, as Christians we have a new covenant through Jesus, so his teachings take priority. The way I see it, the purpose of the Old Testament is as a reminder of our past (because Christianity is essentially just Judaism post-messiah). It's a collection of stories, histories, values, and cultural benchmarks that are important to how we got to where we are now.

The new testament is of course the story of Jesus, as told through the various disciples, and then the events that occurred after the resurrection and a few guesses as to what's to come next.

Do I believe the fat book you can pick up at any bookstore, or view on various databases online is the literal and divine word of God, as pure and as true as the voices of Angels on High? Of course not. But do I believe it's the closest we have, so we must do our best to find relevant meaning in all of it and keep with the spirit of Jesus' teachings. If we keep the spirit of Jesus in mind, and truly act for the sake of causing good that even non-believers cannot deny, then no negative affects should come from what we do. The most violent and "hateful" thing Jesus ever did was throw the merchants and swindlers out of the temple, but the things they were doing were inarguably bad, and they were being permitted to do so by the scribes and Pharisees.

Again, I do believe the Bible is important, but last I checked this is called Christianity, not Bibleinity. We follow Christ, and God, and the Holy Spirit. If we have answers to hard questions, we shouldn't just consult this book, which may or not say what it was originally intended to say. We should ask God to show us in our hearts what is right. Hate never got anything done, and I think if any Christian is truly interested in keeping with the spirit of Jesus and God, they'll be able to use the judgment and critical thinking skills God has granted us with to think beyond what the text says and apply the spirit of Jesus to what we do. To take the Bible strictly at its word without further research into its context or without consulting God or your heart is not what Christianity is about. Jesus didn't tell us to follow a book, or anything any man has written. He told us to follow him.

There's a quote from Gandhi that I just love. I believe it goes: "I like your Christ, but I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ." And I think that is sadly true. Christians today are not thought of in regards to what they stand for. They are regarded in the terms of what they stand against. The only things Jesus stood against were evil, pain, corruption, vindictiveness and hate. And that is taken from the spirit of his actions. The lessons he taught and the values he emphasized were of love, forgiveness, tolerance, pacifism, and trust.

And what I've told you here isn't the result of a few sermons from a church or a single pastor. I was raised in the church, so I'm drawing on a lifetime of examples and demonstrations of the spirit of Jesus and God. To be honest, that sort of puts me at a disadvantage when it comes to telling people about my faith...there isn't any one particular Bible verse or one particular event that brought me to God. I was pretty inactive most of my childhood, but then once I got into high school and now in college I've been given the chance to really interact with others and think about these things for myself, to draw my own conclusions and process what others say based on my faith and understanding of God.

So again, please don't assume you know how anyone feels about anything, especially in regards to religion. There's no generalization or interpretation that can even come close to encompassing everyone's beliefs. And making the wrong assumptions only cause contempt for both sides--for you because you'll see them as an affirmation of what you hate before you even get to know what they really think, and for them because they'll likely be affronted by your stereotypes and that you so quickly associate them with beliefs they do not ascribe to (and even if they do ascribe to them, they won't appreciate the likely one-dimensional and out-of-context interpretation you have on the matter).

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

I am trying to recall when i last heard about atheists doing something like this...

~snip~

**Off Topic(kind of)** I don't hate people for being religiously Christian or being Muslim, but I do find specific aspects of those particular religions annoying, to say the least. I'm Jewish and to me, regardless of whether or not the "Old" Testament is 100% or if there is a Divine power, I feel as if the Hebrew bible functions for Jews like something which is found in many other cultures/ethnic groups, an origin story [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_myth#Creation_from_chaos]. It is something that was specifically "tailored" for us (Jews). Just like how Japanese have Shintoism to explain their origin or how the Norse had their poem Völuspá to tell their origin, so to do Jews. However, when I look at Christianity, all I can think is...wtf? Because technically (imo) all it is, is an extreme form of Judaism that has sprung it's own sects. That said,it comes across very strange to see so many different cultures claim the Hebrew bible as their origin story too. It also seems that in the process of getting these various people to follow this "form" of Judaism, it has became so distorted (Dante's Inferno is a cool book, but seriously what is with this fascination of Hell?)that I don't know whether
to smh (Church of England & Henry VII *faceplant*) or just try not pay any
attention to it (LDS ....you guys are trolling, right?). Granted one of my parents is European-American Christian, I can't help but think about them & ask, why do you follow an origin story from a group of people that you don't identify with? It make just as little sense as if all of the Kenya people proclaimed that they believe and will follow the Norse religion as their own. Sorry about going off topic, but I hope this provides the with a certain understanding, that isn't a common atheist response, as to why some people (in this case Jews) don't think that much of Christians (I don't mean that they hate/despise you, just... don't get what all the fuss is about if that makes sense).

(sorry about the wall of text)

*inb4 other people point it out, obviously I don't type(speak) on behalf of all Jews, I'm just telling you what I think & what I have heard people say to me about the subject n the past.

Police in Aceh (conservative province of Indonesia; only one with imposed Islamic laws) raided a punk-rock concert and arrested 64 attendees under no clear charges. They were than taken to police camp for "reeducation" where they cut their hair, removed their jewelry and thrown them into river for "spiritual cleansing". Those young men and women will be detained 10 days for "rehabilitation", including religious classes and military-style training.

Local police chief Iskandar Hasan said: "We're not torturing anyone. We're not violating human rights. We're just trying to put them back on the right moral path."

Actually, (with all do respect to my fellow escapist) I'm actually really curious as to what the other provinces in Indonesia think about this police raid and how the punk enthusiast were "rehabilitated". I can't think of many Muslim countries that have such a unique situation where some of the country is under Shariah law, while the other sections of the country are not, because obviously the other provinces will hear about this and the fact that they're not under such laws might yield "interesting" responses. Heck, you might just see that there is some Indonesian gamer who also likes listening to punk, voice the very say feelings that you have right now.

 

[spartan231490]

I just don't care. It's not my country, it's not my fucking business, and with a cultural divide as big as between here and Indonesia, I have no scale by which to judge anything done there.

 

[Smooth Operator]

Well that's Europe about 500 years ago, it just takes time for people to grow and get sensible.

 

[Phlakes]

Congratulations, you have been exposed to the Smith & Jenkins Co. Non-Western Culture (TM). This is not the kind of thing we should judge.

 

[Nouw]

What song were they playing? Holy Wars? Snap!
[sub]Geez I'm making way too many references of the song.[/sub]
My official response is that I am not well-educated on Indonesia so I can't comment. Even though I spent half a term studying religion in it, the course probably censored this kind of activity if it happened before.