Oh for the love of fuck, WE DON'T CARE HOW YOU HANDLE IT IN THE UK PEOPLE! Stop trying to make us all look like gun toting, cheeseburger easting, ignorant fat asses, for fuck's sake it's getting annoying.
Police shoot an "armed" middle school student
- Thread starter Kenbo Slice
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I hope someone has already corrected you on this, but in case they haven't: no, no they aren't. There are pellet guns that are as powerful as a .22 rifle, and even the cheap ones can kill under the right circumstances. Airsoft guns are required to have an orange tip in some countries, but not in the U.S., because they aren't classed as toys here. For those who are curious, toy guns /do/ have to have an orange tip in the U.S., it's just that pellet guns are very much not toys; they're training tools at the least, strong enough to reliably take down small game on the other end. Airsoft pistols are something different, but they're like a more realistic but less powerful version of Paintball guns -- which can also kill under the right circumstances. Moral of the story: don't play with guns, especially not carelessly, /and don't brandish them at cops unless you want to die./Aprilgold said:Thats still not the correct reasoning, aren't pellet guns supposed to have BRIGHT PARTS TO IDENTIFY ITS NOT REAL somewhere on it? Hold on while I google Pellet Guns in Bing Images and see what I find. Yep, here's what I found.One Hit Noob said:
If the cop is blind enough NOT to see the cap then either the kid took it off or this guy didn't wear his contacts.
So your saying the Cap on the gun in question was not on the gun the youngster used, or wasn't bright enough, isn't it a law for the cap to be on there, I'm pretty sure that it might / should have been, but it all depends on what the kid was doing, and the link for me was broken.Clive Howlitzer said:
I'm fine with him doing the kill, but if the gun had that cap, then its the cop to blame, if it didn't, then its the kids fault. All I gotta say is WHY THE FUCK AREN'T THEY ALLOWED TO USE TASERS! God damn I better go stretch before I want to pop a cap in somebodies ass.
Thats the other thing, we have to go by what the cop says, since the person is dead. I don't think that we can even begin to say who's in the right or wrong until one or the other has full on evidence. Though, in all honesty, that kid should have been smarter.Esotera said:
A quick google search brought memcnally86 said:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=417076
As far as I can tell, zip guns are more common than regular handguns, but there are far less of either than there are in the States. It also suggests that proportionally, about the same number of people die from violent crimes in both places. However, far fewer are as a result of firearms.
I have a air pistol that looks very much like the real thing, i'd never even think to take it outside with me because of how easily someone might mistake it for such.
No question asked the police did the right thing, to them it could easily have been a real gun and if that was the case and the police just assumed it was fake we'd be reading a completely different story right now.
No question asked the police did the right thing, to them it could easily have been a real gun and if that was the case and the police just assumed it was fake we'd be reading a completely different story right now.
Uhh.. I feel like hitting the boy with a taser and then restraining him, followed by psychological counseling would be far better than... you know murdering him. Clearly the boy was troubled, he didn't need to be put down, he needed to be helped up.werewolfsfury said:
Also, the boy had a pellet gun, they didn't even have to taze him, they could have just walked up and restrained him easy as you please. My thing is, I feel like cops shouldn't be looking out for their safety by shooting first, I think they should be above this, I know that's a hard call but that's supposed to be their thing isn't it? It's easy to tell the difference between a real gun and a pellet gun the second the trigger is pulled, if the cops hadn't just opened fire on an innocent, if stupid, kid then there would be one more life, and don't think that didn't affect that whole community, including the police.
What I'm saying is at some point cop tactics switched to protecting their asses over being worried about hurting civilians. I think cops look at most civilians as enemies, just waiting to break a law, and I think that's totally unacceptable.
You know in Scotland they're still called Guards? I like that so much more, conveys the concept better: They are Guarding the Citizens... not Policing them.
the heat of the moment arguement holds little water only 3 shots were fired by two officers which means one shot twice the other once, with that said I think they showed more restraint than alot of cops, I have seen stories in my area where 3 cops empty twelve round magazines into armed people.
erttheking said:
Maybe we should stop... being... a country... of... Cheeseburger eating... ignorant... gun crazy... fat asses??
Note: We also have Hippies who are pretty chill, but they are always far too high to do anything about the gun crazy cheeseburger devouring fat asses... So, you know, fuck them too. (By the way, that means fuck me too, haha)
this has been said many times but:AnotherAvatar said:
1: they did not know it was a pellet gun from their perspective it was real he had not shot anyone yet but was parading the gun around like it was real and threatening to shoot.
2: a taser could have caused his muscles to contract causing him to fire the gun.
3. the job of a policeman/woman is not to put their life on the line but to get rid of the threat before people are harmed.
Okay, so then:werewolfsfury said:
1) They should know, before they kill someone.
2) Oh, well god forbid he should fire off a pellet....
3) And that is bullshit. It is their code to lay their life on the line for our safety, unless it changed since the 90's, and if that is the case, then that is sickening and selfish. No wonder this kind of shit happens so often with this mind set. Shoot first ask questions later is NOT okay, under ANY circumstances.
I tell you what, picture it's your kid lying in a morgue because some cop thought he had a real gun? Even if you don't have a kid I'm sure you've got some sort of imagination, or if not picture it's a family member you care about or a loved one who just snapped, had a mental break down and did something crazy looking for attention, because that's exactly what that boy was doing if you think about it for two seconds rather than defend his murders. Like I said, picture your friends or family members dead over some stupid misunderstanding when they could have been easily just restrained and helped. You still with the cops on this one? If so then I hope never to be your friend.
If you had been paying attention you would realize this is my whole issue with our bullshit police force, who should all be investigated and possibly replaced if you ask me. They are supposed to protect us, not murder us in the streets to protect themselves.
I'm aware it's stupid when people play into them. Are you stupid? Would you not say the majority of our country loves cheeseburgers, is overweight, and loves guns? If you don't think that's true, then I think you should probably do some more research.erttheking said:
Go into your local McDonalds at lunchtime and count the number of customers in there, multiply that by all the fast food restaurants in the area and then see how many times that goes into the population of the area. I will put hard cash on it being over a third of the population, possibly even over a half depending on the area, and that's not even counting the people rushing through the drive in.
You are aware that your comment had no point right? I'm fucking American, I know my country, you're blind or just stupid if you don't.
How should they find out? Look at some of the pictures in this thread, pellets guns can look identical to the real thing. So they have to wait for him to actually fire to do anything? Potentially getting them (and no, they do not have the responisbility to lay down their lives for a criminal, regardless of age, they have a family too) or a civilian around them killed? This was not a stupid understanding, this was not a child wandering down the street with a bright orange toy and getting mowed down. This was someone assaulting a class mate, pulling out a gun, and threatening to kill everyone. Stop acting like a cops life is worth less than someone who would do this, not to mention surrounding civilians. They gave him a chance to drop the gun, he refused.AnotherAvatar said:
Whoa whoa whoa whoa buddy, yes it's true that I love a good burger, but I sure as Hell don't LOVE guns and for the area that I live in, most of the people are fairly fit. I hate people that portray us as being nothing but that, and were sure as Hell are more than people that eat at McDonalds every single day while weighting 350 lbs and talking about how much we love 12 gauges, we're deeper than that.AnotherAvatar said:
Someone who would do what? Have a mental break down due to unknown pressures and cry out for help with an absurd stunt? Yes, I do think that a cops life, which at no point during this event was on the line, should be put on the line for someone who does something like that. I am SURE that it is in an oath they swear when the get the badge and the gun.The Bucket said:
Not a single person's life was in danger here except for the boy who is now dead, the simple fact was he WASN'T going to kill anyone because he couldn't, he didn't come equipped to kill anyone. He was acting out, and it was stupid, and he's a total prick, but he didn't deserve to die, and if those cops were real men they would have put on swat gear and rushed him rather than capping him three times and toe tagging him. Did anyone try and talk the kid down? Was there a negotiator or a psychologist sent in to deal with him?
I can tell you right now, if I were a cop on the scene my first question would be if anyone heard shots, if they hadn't (and trust me when I say the sound a real gun makes is very distinct from a pellet gun, regardless of how it looks) I would suit up myself, as much as possible and I would give rushing him a go and risk my life as it IS THE JOB. That's why cops WERE given so much glory in the old days, and why that's faded in recent years as they've started placing themselves above the people.
I'm not saying cops should let themselves get killed, they should protect themselves with the absurd defense budget they've been given, but I am most certainly saying they shouldn't murder people they aren't even sure are armed.
That's just insane.
I agree with that, but my thing here is I feel that makes up the majority of our country, hence the cliche. And sadly while we may be deeper than that the majority defines us in many ways and is why you see people complain so much about all American's being like that.erttheking said:
Eh, you know what, you seem chill and I see what you mean so I'll just concede that no culture should be stereotyped, all I really want to say is that in a big way that's more on us to make it so our average isn't some shitty stereotype. Imagine if the stereotype was that all Americans are cultured healthy people who are often selfless... how great would that feel?
Now the big question is how do we kick half the countries asses into shape and out of the greedy mind set?...
Let's talk more about the handgun, because I feel that's a pretty important factor and the article leaves out a lot of information about it. (Unless I'm just missing it.) For starters, was it an airsoft gun, or a BB gun? (There is a difference. I know airsoft ammunition is sometimes referred to as "BBs", but a BB gun fires metal and airsoft guns fire plastic.)
If it was an airsoft gun, it would have the red tip and most likely the appearance of cheap plastic. Even if it was modeled after a real model, it would be easy to tell apart. BB guns are another story though. Some of those have their own original model, easily distinguishable from a real gun. But others look exactly like a real gun. BB guns also don't have the red tip. A red tip is basically a way of saying "This gun isn't a threat. If this guy shoots at you, you'll shake it off." So any gun that doesn't have a red tip is dangerous enough for police to treat like a real gun. (At least in America, anyway.) But on the flip side, if a red tip is present, it's there for a reason - to tell cops not to shoot. If the gun really was indistinguishable from a real gun, it was likely a BB gun. However, the article specifically stated "pellet" gun, and "pellets" more often reference airsoft ammunition. So I think it's also pretty likely that the kid had an airsoft gun here, which just doesn't bring us any closer to a conclusion now does it?
Airsoft gun or BB gun, that red tip or lack thereof is pretty much the deciding factor for me. Otherwise I don't have an opinion either way. Though personally, I have a hunch there was no tip. I mean, I do criticize police a lot, but they're not so dumb that they wouldn't notice a red tip. (Probably.) And assuming there was no telltale tip, what else were they supposed to do? They couldn't risk the possibility of it being a real gun.
I do wonder if the police thought to try negotiating first though. (I don't care about that "we don't negotiate with criminals" BS. If you're a cop worth your badge, you'll keep negotiating as an option if doing so could prevent the loss of life.) The article makes it sound like they just yelled "drop your weapon", and sometimes people want to refuse to do something simply because they're being told to do it. The kid's refusal to put the gun down could have simply been a dislike for the way the police implied their authority over the situation - an assertion of his own power. (Yes, I'm basically implying that "asking nicely" might work.)
If it was an airsoft gun, it would have the red tip and most likely the appearance of cheap plastic. Even if it was modeled after a real model, it would be easy to tell apart. BB guns are another story though. Some of those have their own original model, easily distinguishable from a real gun. But others look exactly like a real gun. BB guns also don't have the red tip. A red tip is basically a way of saying "This gun isn't a threat. If this guy shoots at you, you'll shake it off." So any gun that doesn't have a red tip is dangerous enough for police to treat like a real gun. (At least in America, anyway.) But on the flip side, if a red tip is present, it's there for a reason - to tell cops not to shoot. If the gun really was indistinguishable from a real gun, it was likely a BB gun. However, the article specifically stated "pellet" gun, and "pellets" more often reference airsoft ammunition. So I think it's also pretty likely that the kid had an airsoft gun here, which just doesn't bring us any closer to a conclusion now does it?
Airsoft gun or BB gun, that red tip or lack thereof is pretty much the deciding factor for me. Otherwise I don't have an opinion either way. Though personally, I have a hunch there was no tip. I mean, I do criticize police a lot, but they're not so dumb that they wouldn't notice a red tip. (Probably.) And assuming there was no telltale tip, what else were they supposed to do? They couldn't risk the possibility of it being a real gun.
I do wonder if the police thought to try negotiating first though. (I don't care about that "we don't negotiate with criminals" BS. If you're a cop worth your badge, you'll keep negotiating as an option if doing so could prevent the loss of life.) The article makes it sound like they just yelled "drop your weapon", and sometimes people want to refuse to do something simply because they're being told to do it. The kid's refusal to put the gun down could have simply been a dislike for the way the police implied their authority over the situation - an assertion of his own power. (Yes, I'm basically implying that "asking nicely" might work.)