[Politics] What matters more? My Sex or my Race? (Interesting MCU conversation explored)

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

So, I had a fun little conversation about Marvel's own Beloved Polarizing figure, Captain Marvel. The person I was talking to was coming to me from what it meant to her as representation. I still haven't seen the movie because I'm not big into comic book movies due to knowing the Lore and how much is cut out or reworked for the MCU fans. The topic was mainly how I need to see the movie regardless.

I like Danvers more as Ms. Marvel. I've said that a few times. I think there were a ton of better picks for Marvel's breakout female Nuke. Ms. America could probably wipe the floor with Captain if pushed. Spectrum was the original female Captain Marvel and has been that way for a better part of a few decades. The new Ms. Marvel I happen to like, but I realize that Shape Changers do not make compelling heroes in a lot of people's minds. Especially in terms of action.

Regardless, I haven't felt compelled to see Captain Marvel, like I haven't been compelled to see any of these films. And that was a non-starer with my friend. Eventually, she played the "as a minority, you should know about representation" card as a way to guilt me into seeing it. Which I wasn't ok with. I am a huge Wonder Woman fan. I've been one since back in the 80's, where people couldn't even understand that a black kid likes comics. Back when admitting you liked a Female Superhero would be tantamount for asking for a beating... Especially in the Bronx.

And I didn't even see Wonder Woman! Again. Same problem. I know too much of the lore to trust they got it right. It's an impossibility that they can. That's one of the reasons I actually saw Spiderman Into the Spider-Verse. I know NOTHING about Miles Morales so I could see it fresh.

I pointed out while they had Black Panther, Falcon, James Rhodes, and Nick Fury, there doesn't seem to be a lot of black guys being represented in the films as stars. Her response? "It doesn't matter, all comic book movies star guys and you're a guy at the end of the day".

The conversation devolved from there. But this is actually a conversation I'm having with distressing frequency. That somehow being a guy makes things easier for me, so I should just roll with it. For other guys, that might be the case, but having the cops called on them doesn't tantamount a death sentence for most other guys. I have to live with that fear. I had to shorten my name just to get call backs for jobs. I can't get the same level of loud because the perception I'll create if I act like a regular person.

In short, I have plights that are actually expressly tied to my being a man. That black females do not have. In this matter, Black males are uniquely a little more disadvantaged than Black females. My mother taught me that, my aunts, my family, and my eyes did as well.

Yet when I talk to people outside the race, My maleness in their eyes makes up for everything.

And yes, I explained this to my friend. To which, her wavering went as far as "Well.. then you know what it's like!".

We're not all built the same. We might have the same skin tone or the same outwardly expressed sexual characteristics, but that doesn't mean our experiences are monolith. I want to understand everyone's point of view and why they feel the way they do, but I find myself wondering what's the point if they don't want to actually bend and see that me being tall doesn't make my life easier just because they aren't tall, or me being strong makes up for everything because they are weak...

Or that me being a male doesn't make it expressly easier for me in life than a woman because I'm more likely to catch a bullet for that exact characteristic.

So what are your thoughts? Does what I say suck, but still being a man for the most part makes up for whatever I have to endure? Should people be more open minded than what it appears from the outside? Or should we all stop talking to each other and just ask about the weather like we're British or Canadian?

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

Well I am glad I am male because I don't have to go through Pregnancy and Periods. Those sound like agony.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

These kinda questions are why oppression olympics are a failed cause. Even if you satisfy this quandary, next time someone will add sexuality or disability into the equation. Someone will add immigration status.


You're not really saying anything about you yourself, you're just using generalizations (which are by default wrong) to judge things, and since there will most likely never be a MCU movie about transgender gay mixed race with ancestry from all over the planet amputee midget with hiv and cancer who was born with no nose but seven toes on his right leg, which incidentally is his only leg btw, someone will always be able to one-up you and claim you can't POSSIBLY understand or opine cause you have 5 toes in you single midget leg and those toe privileges you enjoy make all the difference.


Just use your normal logic and opine and deal with other logical arguments about facts and stuff. If something is purely subjective and opinion based don't try to dominate other's opinions and just agree to disagree respectfully. It's really just that easy. All this is is people trying to force other people to see their opinions as fact because of the groups they belong in. It's BS.

 

[Saelune]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality

It is not a one beats all. We all have privileges and disadvantages.

I have privilege for being an American, and white and living close to New York in a good neighborhood.

I am disadvantaged by being LGBT, particularly trans.

And yes, there are sexist women, racist black people, even homophobic gay people of all things.

Though another important point is who is bigoted, the power they have, and how they use it. The President of the US being bigoted is worse than an average citizen being bigoted.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality

It is not a one beats all. We all have privileges and disadvantages.

I have privilege for being an American, and white and living close to New York in a good neighborhood.

I am disadvantaged by being LGBT, particularly trans.

And yes, there are sexist women, racist black people, even homophobic gay people of all things.

Though another important point is who is bigoted, the power they have, and how they use it. The President of the US being bigoted is worse than an average citizen being bigoted.

The point is you can infinitely go into these sub-facets of people's being and keep dividing and dividing forever. Maybe someone was short and has a complex with that. I had bracers growing up which I consider to be isolating and make you stand out negatively. Stuff like that. You can always find stuff like that to make yourself seem harmed by something that's not your fault. That's just life and chance. Some people are born with no lungs and die and some people are born perfect the heirs of kings. You're not gonna fix this by making everyone aware of all the multitudes of ways that life was being life at you. Just take it for granted that life works like that and move past it onto things that are about your actions and not your circumstances.


In the context of this topic; your opinion on movies is not more valuable purely because you're this or that sex. Someone who is just another man can still be way more worthwhile to listen to based on his expertise on lore and so on. It's why when experts testify at court their expert opinion is given more weight than a layman's, and there is no such category of expertise that is attained by merely being born as something. You have to actually accomplish things to get your opinion to count more than that of just another random insignificant person. Your oppression doesn't make you significant, even if you're marginally more oppressed than most everyone else. It just makes you pitiable.

 

[McElroy]

Forgetting about statistics because they say little about individuals, I can't say I'm cursed by my masculinity and maleness. It's probably just me getting in the way of the good things I want and need in my life, and by that I mean I can imagine an Elsa McElroy having similar issues. Then again being an attractive woman seems to be easy mode for some things in our (Finnish in this case) society, but hey that's just my saltiness talking.

One thing I find weird is that in discussions between public figures over here, the expectations for rhetoric are the same no matter the sex of whoever's arguing, but in casual or "coffee table" conversations the stereotypically logical men are at odds with the emotional women sometimes surprisingly fast. Or maybe that's just between me and my mother.

 

[Hawki]

I still haven't seen the movie because I'm not big into comic book movies due to knowing the Lore and how much is cut out or reworked for the MCU fans. The topic was mainly how I need to see the movie regardless.

If you're a comics purist, you're going to hate what they did to the skrulls.

But that aside, I struggled how, or if, I should answer this, since, y'know, straight white male living in Australia who won't have to worry a lot about the crap you mention here. It's kind of touching on intersectionality, but I guess what your post demonstrates is that intersectionality breaks down when you apply it to individuals rather than groups. I guess all I can say about issues of race is that I think it's fair to talk about the issues until they no longer are issues. Of course, which issues are worthy of discussion is another matter, but I think it's perfectly fair to highlight that when it comes to police brutality in the US, blacks are far more negatively affected than whites as a proportion (we have the same issue here with Indigenous Australians and deaths in custody). On the other hand, I'm more blase about representation in fiction. The former is an issue that can, and should be solved, because fucking lives are on the line. On the other, I can't help but think if representation is so important to some people, shouldn't their efforts be better spent on creating it? I get that isn't necessarily possible in a system like Hollywood (or any other film industry), but the filmmakers are going to cater to the market.

But I get that as straight white male, I'm well and truly catered for in this regard. So when Black Panther became a cultural phenomenon across the African diaspora for instance, I was at first perplexed, but then, it's not my place to tell anyone that it shouldn't be (also haven't seen the film, so...)

Should people be more open minded than what it appears from the outside? Or should we all stop talking to each other and just ask about the weather like we're British or Canadian?

British only get to discuss rain, Canadians only get to discuss snow. Need a better topic than weather.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

These kinda questions are why oppression olympics are a failed cause. Even if you satisfy this quandary, next time someone will add sexuality or disability into the equation. Someone will add immigration status.

Then let them. This isn't the last MCU or even super hero movie. If someone wants a gay hero after Captain Marvel, let them. If someone wants a muslim hero after that gay one. Let them. Trans one? Hell yeah bud.

You shouldn't be this upset because people ask for things on the internet.

Dunno where I'm being any amount of upset here lol. I'm just pointing out the irrationality here. People's opinions ought not be granted special consideration based on these factors, this actively worsens our society by pursuing goals outside of merit. Someone being female doesn't make them by default more suitable to opine about MCU protagonists or films or what have you. Any decision reached with this as a basis will be fundamentally weaker than it otherwise would have been. At some point we have to say to someone "no, you having three moles in your nose and not two does not mean you deserve special consideration" and since nobody can really draw a line about which arbitrary characteristic is fair game to be granted sagacity over but which is patently absurd, I will simply say that none of them should have that function in society and that way everyone's gonna be treated fairly. Cause come on, being blind or deaf is way more disarming and a bigger hardship to live with by orders of magnitude as opposed to being black or gay or what have you but we barely even hear from those people. It's kinda obscene.

I'm not even that much into comic books and their films to begin with, it's the principle of the matter that's the issue here.

 

[RobertEHouse]

Life is hard and to say a person is a man or white had privilege is ignorant to who they are as an individual. We all have our own individual struggles and pains regardless of our sex or race. Yet, to clump someone by sex/race and say it is easier for them is not accounting for every person known as one. It devalues the individual as a whole and is the same tactic the KKK or Nazism did to dehumanize Jews. It ignores that it is baseline racism at its core, with a society which tides itself to justice. It is in essence borderline Joseph Goebbles thinking and approach. Every person is a individual, and as a individual they are not held to these stereotypes.

The same is true with the MCU characters; they should be based upon themselves as individuals. Not characters to just check mark a group. They should be individuals first well written, in essence be human without being a stereotype. Ironically, it seems Hollywood is more interested fluff than actual character development.So anything created for LGBTQ etc would just feel very hollow and placed in films just to fill seats.

 

[Erttheking]

Even if you satisfy this quandary, next time someone will add sexuality or disability into the equation.

And?

You're not really saying anything about you yourself, you're just using generalizations (which are by default wrong) to judge things, and since there will most likely never be a MCU movie about transgender gay mixed race with ancestry from all over the planet amputee midget with hiv and cancer who was born with no nose but seven toes on his right leg, which incidentally is his only leg btw, someone will always be able to one-up you and claim you can't POSSIBLY understand or opine cause you have 5 toes in you single midget leg and those toe privileges you enjoy make all the difference.


Just use your normal logic and opine and deal with other logical arguments about facts and stuff. If something is purely subjective and opinion based don't try to dominate other's opinions and just agree to disagree respectfully. It's really just that easy. All this is is people trying to force other people to see their opinions as fact because of the groups they belong in. It's BS.

Oh get real problems. And drop the hyperbole.

 

[MrCalavera_v1legacy]

This reminds about that one episode of Scrubs, where Eliott and Turk argue who has it harder in the medical field: women or black doctors?

Then a black lady doctor passes by and they both are like "You go, you!".

That's my input for this topic when it comes to media, i guess. Since i'm both white and male, i can't think of anything to add regarding IRL situations.

 

[Saelune]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality

It is not a one beats all. We all have privileges and disadvantages.

I have privilege for being an American, and white and living close to New York in a good neighborhood.

I am disadvantaged by being LGBT, particularly trans.

And yes, there are sexist women, racist black people, even homophobic gay people of all things.

Though another important point is who is bigoted, the power they have, and how they use it. The President of the US being bigoted is worse than an average citizen being bigoted.

The point is you can infinitely go into these sub-facets of people's being and keep dividing and dividing forever. Maybe someone was short and has a complex with that. I had bracers growing up which I consider to be isolating and make you stand out negatively. Stuff like that. You can always find stuff like that to make yourself seem harmed by something that's not your fault. That's just life and chance. Some people are born with no lungs and die and some people are born perfect the heirs of kings. You're not gonna fix this by making everyone aware of all the multitudes of ways that life was being life at you. Just take it for granted that life works like that and move past it onto things that are about your actions and not your circumstances.


In the context of this topic; your opinion on movies is not more valuable purely because you're this or that sex. Someone who is just another man can still be way more worthwhile to listen to based on his expertise on lore and so on. It's why when experts testify at court their expert opinion is given more weight than a layman's, and there is no such category of expertise that is attained by merely being born as something. You have to actually accomplish things to get your opinion to count more than that of just another random insignificant person. Your oppression doesn't make you significant, even if you're marginally more oppressed than most everyone else. It just makes you pitiable.

Remember when people with braces weren't legally allowed to marry? Remember when movements of naturally straight teeth supremacists marched chanting to kill you? Remember when you had your liberty over your body made illegal in the state of Georgia? No? Hm. Weird.

 

[Saelune]

Everyone has dealt with adversity. Not everyone's adversity was from the government making laws to oppress you. And either way, if you have ever had life be shitty cause of something, MAYBE LEARN TO EMPATHISE ABOUT IT!

I am not black, but having my own rights oppressed as an LGBT person has made me care about the rights of black people.

The real pissing contest is done by bitter straight white men who cant handle the notion of giving a fuck about people who dont look like them.

 

[Thaluikhain]

The real pissing contest is done by bitter straight white men who cant handle the notion of giving a fuck about people who dont look like them.

Yes and no. There's certainly a lot of that, but any rights movement you care to name has people who are (passionately, rightfully) fighting for their rights, who totally ignore (or contribute to) the problems of other groups. There are really racist white feminists, and really sexist black men fighting for black rights. Both types often demand black women stand with them (in subservient roles), and get surprised and outraged when they aren't fully onboard with that. Some of the black women (quite rightfully) condemning that sort of behaviour would hate black women who are Muslim.

Which gives straight white christian males panicking about minorities banding together and taking over another way to be annoying.

 

[Abomination]

I mean, to answer the topic question, I don't know what the difference between 0 and 0 is. So I guess the answer is "No".

Medically I'd figure your sex matters more. Whereas socially it would be race.

 

[Agema]

Life is hard and to say a person is a man or white had privilege is ignorant to who they are as an individual. We all have our own individual struggles and pains regardless of our sex or race. Yet, to clump someone by sex/race and say it is easier for them is not accounting for every person known as one. It devalues the individual as a whole and is the same tactic the KKK or Nazism did to dehumanize Jews. It ignores that it is baseline racism at its core, with a society which tides itself to justice. It is in essence borderline Joseph Goebbles thinking and approach. Every person is a individual, and as a individual they are not held to these stereotypes.

It's not that easy, though, is it?

We can say that "men are taller than women" is an insult to individual short men and tall women, but at a level it's basically true. Likewise if we sum up all the people in demographic groups X and Y, all those individuals, we can see that perhaps their lives and outcomes on average are not equivalent in ways that might be concerning. When we suddenly say everyone is an individual and refuse to budge from that level, we voluntarily decide to look only at the trees and stop seeing the wood and we start missing something important. And ironically, if we refuse to see such bigger pictures of society, we will fail many of the individuals within it.

The problem is not to note things like "male" or "white" privilege exist. The problem is with how they are applied to people and used to justify action: they can be handled sensitively and sensibly... or not. And given that humans aren't perfect, inevitably quite a lot of that time it's not going to be sensitive and/or sensible. But that's not sufficient reason to throw any babies out with the bathwater.

...you're just using generalizations (which are by default wrong)

Generalisations are as true as the facts supporting them. The problem is their misapplication.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

Hhm... Well Dreiko, thankfully, already made my point on your questions so instead I'll bring up something I think this might be an indication of the problem with coalitions, if one party, party 1, of that coalition gets the chance to get what they want but another party, party 2, doesn't, chances are that party 1 is going to take that instead of continuing to stand with party 2 in solidarity.

For instance, LGBT, why is the T there? The LGB indicates sexual and romantic preferences while the T indicates an identity of self that goes against what is more common. It's a bit like how Visual Novels are placed in the same stores as games despite them being more like interactive graphic novels for the most part. They aren't what you'd technically consider a game (Except for the VN's that do have gameplay) but because their audience and niche attract similar groups of people and placing them with games increases the number of people that will see and purchase them, they get placed with games.

I'm percolating in my head the idea that one might be able to tell if a minority group truly has strength to stand on its own if it is willing to distance itself from another minority group or "eat" it for its own benefit. I've noticed more and more of my fellow aspies acting... snobbish in regards to talking about NT's on forums which I feel is another sign of us having more power in the public sphere that they feel they can act that way.

The real pissing contest is done by bitter straight white men who cant handle the notion of giving a fuck about people who dont look like them.

It always stuns me when you say these things with a completely straight face and no sense of the irony of how you yourself act like the people you describe.

 

[Neurotic Void Melody]

it seems like your friend was just excited and happy to be represented in the modern high-budget universe they enjoy and wanted to share that, whereas yourself being so intimately familiar with the source material and current film adaptation knowledge led to a different perception and lack of excitement overall, where they both collide in conversation an impasse occurred and things were said that weren't thought out too good, perhaps fueled by emotional investments born of different life experiences? just from first impression however. I'm not sure the question is a useful one though, as there are numerous interconnecting factors and variables that mean attempting to prioritise one over another for the sake of debate doesn't really do any of them justice. people tend to only see the problems of this world through the prism of their own negative experiences, it takes effort to push through that. effort, patience, empathy and a surrender of ego which some find more challenging than others of course, for better or worse. but the expected default is the prism. people tend to think pretty ladies get everything easier than them, but that is not at all true. they just see what they project into these typically attractive females which coincidentally misses everything except their own personal desires