[Politics] What matters more? My Sex or my Race? (Interesting MCU conversation explored)

[Abomination]

White people came up with the idea of ending slavery.

Do you think Fredrick Douglas is a fairy tale?

He was born 11 years after the British Empire started applying military pressure to end slavery on a global scale.

The point Dreiko was trying to make is that if you want to really make a social change, you want to encourage those in power to take up your cause. But you don't convince those in power to take up your cause by hurling insults at them when they start to offer their opinion on the best way to achieve your goal.

The US required a civil war that resulted in the deaths of over half a million people to end slavery. The British Empire passed it with legislation and no civil war. Of course, the political structure of both nations was very very different but one can't help but agree that the British Empire obtained the better result.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

White people came up with the idea of ending slavery.

Do you think Fredrick Douglas is a fairy tale?

He was born 11 years after the British Empire started applying military pressure to end slavery on a global scale.

The point Dreiko was trying to make is that if you want to really make a social change, you want to encourage those in power to take up your cause. But you don't convince those in power to take up your cause by hurling insults at them when they start to offer their opinion on the best way to achieve your goal.

The US required a civil war that resulted in the deaths of over half a million people to end slavery. The British Empire passed it with legislation and no civil war. Of course, the political structure of both nations was very very different but one can't help but agree that the British Empire obtained the better result.

I hope people do realize that there are many cultures on earth that never had slavery to begin with and found the idea of slavery to be horrific. It is honestly a bit disturbing that people think they should be patting someone on the back for ending something that should have been found morally reprehensible to participate in by all involved regardless. It is like finally ending mass kidnapping, abuse, rape and murder as some sort of achievement is setting a pretty low bar for a society I would think. Yes it is great they finally stopped, but patting themselves on the back for ending something that that should have never been started is strange.

Can you imagine how odd it would be to be like "we did a whole lot of really bad shat but we should get credit because we finally stopped" instead of just addressing that it should have never happened in the first place and were wrong to participate in it at all. To me, the entire idea that one should be commended for stopping themselves from something that should they should have never participated in at all is deranged.

Like "hey, we were just committing mass murder, but we finally stopped and thought maybe we shouldn't be doing this so you should give us credit for it" is supposed to be normal or something.

 

[Hawki]

I hope people do realize that there are many cultures on earth that never had slavery to begin with and found the idea of slavery to be horrific.

Perhaps, but slavery has existed on every continent on Earth. It's practically synonymous with post-Stone Age societies, and has existed even before recorded history.

It is honestly a bit disturbing that people think they should be patting someone on the back for ending something that should have been found morally reprehensible to participate in by all involved regardless. It is like finally ending mass kidnapping, abuse, rape and murder as some sort of achievement is setting a pretty low bar for a society I would think. Yes it is great they finally stopped, but patting themselves on the back for ending something that that should have never been started is strange.

Can you imagine how odd it would be to be like "we did a whole lot of really bad shat but we should get credit because we finally stopped" instead of just addressing that it should have never happened in the first place and were wrong to participate in it at all. To me, the entire idea that one should be commended for stopping themselves from something that should they should have never participated in at all is deranged.

Like "hey, we were just committing mass murder, but we finally stopped and thought maybe we shouldn't be doing this so you should give us credit for it" is supposed to be normal or something.

I understand what you're getting at, but it's easy to judge the standards of people in the past by the standards of today. So, by the standards of today (standards that will no doubt be considered barbaric centuries from now), we can sit comfortably and declare that slavery should never have happened. By the standards of human history, we can applaud the abolition of slavery in the context of the period.

If we want a different example from the US or UK, I can laud Emperor Wang Mang of China for abolishing China in 9AD, before slavery was promptly returned in 12AD. You can easily argue that slavery should never have happened at all, but in the context of the time, I can applaud the effort. Also, self-congratulation is pretty common across all cultures. So if we're pivoting back to the US and UK, we can agree that slavery is terrible while also lauding the efforts of those who ended it, in a period where slavery was largely universal across continents and cultures. Helps in these specific cases that the US has a Civil War based on slavery (helps, as in, yay for the Union), and the British Navy took part in ending the slave trade.

 

[Agema]

Yeah, that's just... racist.

[insert contemptuous snort here]

White people came up with the idea of ending slavery.

No, white people had the power (in countries where they were demographically dominant) to end slavery.

There's this unproven implied notion here that having first hand experience of a particular group's issues makes one more suitable to solving them. I seen absolutely no support for that argument.

Normally, having experience of something would be considered a major plus in their ability to understand and solve a problem. That's the sort of reason a plumber might examine your pipes before trying to fix a leak rather than just diving in and rearranging it with whatever wrenches and copper piping he has lying around the back of the van.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

I hope people do realize that there are many cultures on earth that never had slavery to begin with and found the idea of slavery to be horrific.

Perhaps, but slavery has existed on every continent on Earth. It's practically synonymous with post-Stone Age societies, and has existed even before recorded history.

It is honestly a bit disturbing that people think they should be patting someone on the back for ending something that should have been found morally reprehensible to participate in by all involved regardless. It is like finally ending mass kidnapping, abuse, rape and murder as some sort of achievement is setting a pretty low bar for a society I would think. Yes it is great they finally stopped, but patting themselves on the back for ending something that that should have never been started is strange.

Can you imagine how odd it would be to be like "we did a whole lot of really bad shat but we should get credit because we finally stopped" instead of just addressing that it should have never happened in the first place and were wrong to participate in it at all. To me, the entire idea that one should be commended for stopping themselves from something that should they should have never participated in at all is deranged.

Like "hey, we were just committing mass murder, but we finally stopped and thought maybe we shouldn't be doing this so you should give us credit for it" is supposed to be normal or something.

I understand what you're getting at, but it's easy to judge the standards of people in the past by the standards of today. So, by the standards of today (standards that will no doubt be considered barbaric centuries from now), we can sit comfortably and declare that slavery should never have happened. By the standards of human history, we can applaud the abolition of slavery in the context of the period.

If we want a different example from the US or UK, I can laud Emperor Wang Mang of China for abolishing China in 9AD, before slavery was promptly returned in 12AD. You can easily argue that slavery should never have happened at all, but in the context of the time, I can applaud the effort. Also, self-congratulation is pretty common across all cultures. So if we're pivoting back to the US and UK, we can agree that slavery is terrible while also lauding the efforts of those who ended it, in a period where slavery was largely universal across continents and cultures. Helps in these specific cases that the US has a Civil War based on slavery (helps, as in, yay for the Union), and the British Navy took part in ending the slave trade.

That is just it, I am not gauging it by standards of today. The name of my tribe literally means "peaceful ones" and our tribes history is well known throughout the tribes of North, Central and South America for being peaceful. We were taught that no person can own the earth and animals let alone a human being, according to our beliefs we do not even own children. The histories of the tribes here hold that this was what has been taught from the beginning, before the great migrations of humankind on the earth. The Tribes in the Americas ( North, central and south) still pass down from generation to generation the ancient migration routes, and history of the tribes here as well as what life was like before the migrations. Western history shows this to be "prehistory" however, that is not what is taught in other cultures. Slavery is against the core beliefs of tribes all over the world who believed that no person could own a piece of the earth or those that dwell upon it, but instead we had to be granted permission by respecting all things. This is a shared belief among tribes in the Americas, Australia, Africa and others. " property ownership" as understood by Europeans was a later invention at odds with many cultures beliefs and not shared by much of the outside world. We are taught that the idea of property ownership came about due to those that wished to elevate themselves over others due to personal greed and exists in opposition to the natural order of life on earth.

 

[Saelune]

White people came up with the idea of ending slavery.

Do you think Fredrick Douglas is a fairy tale?

He was born 11 years after the British Empire started applying military pressure to end slavery on a global scale.

The point Dreiko was trying to make is that if you want to really make a social change, you want to encourage those in power to take up your cause. But you don't convince those in power to take up your cause by hurling insults at them when they start to offer their opinion on the best way to achieve your goal.

The US required a civil war that resulted in the deaths of over half a million people to end slavery. The British Empire passed it with legislation and no civil war. Of course, the political structure of both nations was very very different but one can't help but agree that the British Empire obtained the better result.

That is some of the white washingist bullshit ever.

Seriously, all these claims of white people ending slavery is just racist and beyond over generalizing. Know what else white people did? THE HOLOCAUST! But suddenly #notallwhitepeople, right? White people also fought a war to KEEP slavery, but you guys aren't going to use that against ALL white people, are you?

And people tell me -I- over generalize.

 

[Hawki]

Slavery is against the core beliefs of tribes all over the world who believed that no person could own a piece of the earth or those that dwell upon it, but instead we had to be granted permission by respecting all things. This is a shared belief among tribes in the Americas, Australia, Africa and others.

Not disputing any of that, but you'll find plenty of evidence for slavery in the Americas and Africa as well. Even in Australia, you'd just have to hop across the pond to find slavery being practiced.

" property ownership" as understood by Europeans was a later invention at odds with many cultures beliefs and not shared by much of the outside world.

Define "property ownership," because unless you're equating it with capitalism, you'll find plenty of examples in other civilizations on other continents.

 

[Saelune]

Slavery is against the core beliefs of tribes all over the world who believed that no person could own a piece of the earth or those that dwell upon it, but instead we had to be granted permission by respecting all things. This is a shared belief among tribes in the Americas, Australia, Africa and others.

Not disputing any of that, but you'll find plenty of evidence for slavery in the Americas and Africa as well. Even in Australia, you'd just have to hop across the pond to find slavery being practiced.

" property ownership" as understood by Europeans was a later invention at odds with many cultures beliefs and not shared by much of the outside world.

Define "property ownership," because unless you're equating it with capitalism, you'll find plenty of examples in other civilizations on other continents.

What is your goal here? To prove that lots of people are terrible? Cause uh, duh?

Slavery was never ok. That large portions of the world went for centuries thinking it was ok is just proof that people are more bad than good and that anyone who thinks things cant get worse today are very very wrong.

 

[Baffle]

That's the sort of reason a plumber might examine your pipes before trying to fix a leak rather than just diving in and rearranging it with whatever wrenches and copper piping he has lying around the back of the van.

You and I don't know the same plumbers.

 

[Hawki]

What is your goal here? To prove that lots of people are terrible? Cause uh, duh?

Slavery was never ok. That large portions of the world went for centuries thinking it was ok is just proof that people are more bad than good and that anyone who thinks things cant get worse today are very very wrong.

Um, believe it or not, you can take part in conversation without a "goal."

Guess my goal is...keep in mind that centuries from now, we'll be the barbarians? Like, it's something I've always kept in mind in regards to history, that while I'm judging the past, I'm keeping in mind context, and the march of history itself? Like, we can sit back and judge slavery of the past today, but centuries from now (hopefully), people will be in a position to ask how 30-50 million slaves were allowed to exist in the year 2019?

 

[Agema]

Guess my goal is...keep in mind that centuries from now, we'll be the barbarians?

This is a digression, but I read a fantastic thought piece on this. Experiments on people who have suffered some problem with the communication between their brain hemispheres suggest that, separated, each hemisphere is capable of considerably different thought. When the hemispheres are properly connected however, this dichotomy does not exist, as it seems one hemisphere suppresses the other.

Therefore, the argument is that potentially there's two largely separate consciousnesses in our brains, and we are all repressive tyrants over the half that's suppressed.

* * *

But yes, it is pretty much an inevitability that societal morality will change and they'll look back on us as simplistic ignorami.

 

[the December King]

Slavery is against the core beliefs of tribes all over the world who believed that no person could own a piece of the earth or those that dwell upon it, but instead we had to be granted permission by respecting all things. This is a shared belief among tribes in the Americas, Australia, Africa and others.

Not disputing any of that, but you'll find plenty of evidence for slavery in the Americas and Africa as well. Even in Australia, you'd just have to hop across the pond to find slavery being practiced.

" property ownership" as understood by Europeans was a later invention at odds with many cultures beliefs and not shared by much of the outside world.

Define "property ownership," because unless you're equating it with capitalism, you'll find plenty of examples in other civilizations on other continents.

What is your goal here? To prove that lots of people are terrible? Cause uh, duh?

Slavery was never ok. That large portions of the world went for centuries thinking it was ok is just proof that people are more bad than good and that anyone who thinks things cant get worse today are very very wrong.

I won't put words in Hawki's mouth, but I suspect that slavery was not invented in Europe. So, not so much that 'lots of people were terrible', but that there were terrible people everywhere.

 

[Saelune]

What is your goal here? To prove that lots of people are terrible? Cause uh, duh?

Slavery was never ok. That large portions of the world went for centuries thinking it was ok is just proof that people are more bad than good and that anyone who thinks things cant get worse today are very very wrong.

Um, believe it or not, you can take part in conversation without a "goal."

Guess my goal is...keep in mind that centuries from now, we'll be the barbarians? Like, it's something I've always kept in mind in regards to history, that while I'm judging the past, I'm keeping in mind context, and the march of history itself? Like, we can sit back and judge slavery of the past today, but centuries from now (hopefully), people will be in a position to ask how 30-50 million slaves were allowed to exist in the year 2019?

Participating in a conversation relies on a goal. From 'gaining information' to trying to persuade a point. You clearly had some sort of goal to interject, or you would not have interjected. If you think having a goal is inherently insidious, that is not what I am saying. My goal in responding to you was to understand what your point was, cause a lot of other people's goal in this specific discussion of white savior is to support racism in favor of white people against blacks.


Morallity is only subjective in a 'lesser evil' way. Slavery is always wrong, and if George Washington got murdered by his slaves, he would have deserved it. The founding fathers should have ended slavery day 1, and they were wrong for not doing it, but I accept the realism of that society was evil enough back then to condone slavery, so I acknowledge that for the time Washington was a much lesser evil than say, King George who was a tyrant over much of the world.

And when people in the future if there is one go 'How the fuck could they let Trump do those things?', well I have been asking that in present day.

 

[Saelune]

Slavery is against the core beliefs of tribes all over the world who believed that no person could own a piece of the earth or those that dwell upon it, but instead we had to be granted permission by respecting all things. This is a shared belief among tribes in the Americas, Australia, Africa and others.

Not disputing any of that, but you'll find plenty of evidence for slavery in the Americas and Africa as well. Even in Australia, you'd just have to hop across the pond to find slavery being practiced.

" property ownership" as understood by Europeans was a later invention at odds with many cultures beliefs and not shared by much of the outside world.

Define "property ownership," because unless you're equating it with capitalism, you'll find plenty of examples in other civilizations on other continents.

What is your goal here? To prove that lots of people are terrible? Cause uh, duh?

Slavery was never ok. That large portions of the world went for centuries thinking it was ok is just proof that people are more bad than good and that anyone who thinks things cant get worse today are very very wrong.

I won't put words in Hawki's mouth, but I suspect that slavery was not invented in Europe. So, not so much that 'lots of people were terrible', but that there were terrible people everywhere.

Slavery was not invented in a single place. Too much of this conversation though is a petty excuse to defend white people participating in slavery and it is absolutely to defend racism.

 

[Abomination]

That is some of the white washingist bullshit ever.

It really isn't. The British Empire made concentrated effort to ending the Global Slave Trade, using the military, political, and economic power at its disposal. Other nations in the past may have outlawed slavery within their own borders, but the British Empire was the first to have success with "convincing" other nations to outlaw the practice.

Everyone is shit. White, black, asian, whomever. No ethnicity has a monopoly on being evil to other humans.

Like "hey, we were just committing mass murder, but we finally stopped and thought maybe we shouldn't be doing this so you should give us credit for it" is supposed to be normal or something.

Slavery was pretty much "normal". What was not normal was a nation spending its resources and effort to ending it on a global scale.

Credit where credit is due, the British Empire did horrible things and deserves all the scorn it receives for those actions - it also should be lauded for the good it did as well. It was a long road, but the actions of the British Empire created my home country of New Zealand - not a perfect nation, but one that is capable of examining its faults and enjoys being the 1st or 2nd least corrupt country on the planet.

Humans are still learning, and we've nearly got to the point where we do not judge someone for the colour of their skin, their genitalia, or where they enjoy placing said genitalia. I fear some nations might need big-stick mode of convincing, but I think we should employ other methods of pressure before resorting to violence.

 

[Thaluikhain]

That is some of the white washingist bullshit ever.

It really isn't. The British Empire made concentrated effort to ending the Global Slave Trade, using the military, political, and economic power at its disposal. Other nations in the past may have outlawed slavery within their own borders, but the British Empire was the first to have success with "convincing" other nations to outlaw the practice.

Yes, various places tried combating slavery within their reach. That the British Empire was a mighty power and had a considerable reach doesn't mean their anti-slavery efforts were morally superior to other nations that didn't have the biggest navy ever.

As an aside, the PM that whose government abolished slavery in the British Empire (nominally) is the person that Earl Grey tea is named after.

 

[Erttheking]

The point Dreiko was trying to make is that if you want to really make a social change, you want to encourage those in power to take up your cause.

That is...not the point he was making.

Sure, enslaved blacks escaped, they didn't want to BE slaves. Not wanting to be a slave yourself is not the same as slavery ending. Most everyone doesn't want to be the slave, even those who thought slavery is awesome and fought a civil war to retain it would have tried to escape if it came to be that they were slaves somehow. That's not enough to show that someone's against slavery, that's just showing they're against being the slave themselves.

Anti-slavery movements from people who weren't themselves slaves, from people against slavery as a thing and not merely against it being perpetrated on them, begun in the UK. Before that lots of peoples had both been enslaved and held/sold slaves but they never seemed to end slavery when it was within their capacity to be the owner and not the slave up until that point.

Drieko is arguing that escaped slaves just didn't want to be slaves themselves and anti-slave movements didn't come from slaves. He gets one point right in that it began in the UK, but the first paragraph is just a load of horseshit about how escaped slaves only cared about themselves.

So I'll ask again. Dreiko? Do you think Fredrick Douglas was a fairy tale?

 

[the December King]

Slavery is against the core beliefs of tribes all over the world who believed that no person could own a piece of the earth or those that dwell upon it, but instead we had to be granted permission by respecting all things. This is a shared belief among tribes in the Americas, Australia, Africa and others.

Not disputing any of that, but you'll find plenty of evidence for slavery in the Americas and Africa as well. Even in Australia, you'd just have to hop across the pond to find slavery being practiced.

" property ownership" as understood by Europeans was a later invention at odds with many cultures beliefs and not shared by much of the outside world.

Define "property ownership," because unless you're equating it with capitalism, you'll find plenty of examples in other civilizations on other continents.

What is your goal here? To prove that lots of people are terrible? Cause uh, duh?

Slavery was never ok. That large portions of the world went for centuries thinking it was ok is just proof that people are more bad than good and that anyone who thinks things cant get worse today are very very wrong.

I won't put words in Hawki's mouth, but I suspect that slavery was not invented in Europe. So, not so much that 'lots of people were terrible', but that there were terrible people everywhere.

Slavery was not invented in a single place. Too much of this conversation though is a petty excuse to defend white people participating in slavery and it is absolutely to defend racism.

Fair enough. I'm not going to defend white people's participation in the slave trade, modern or otherwise. Just wanted to clarify that other peoples have dealt in slaves, too.

 

[Saelune]

That is some of the white washingist bullshit ever.

It really isn't. The British Empire made concentrated effort to ending the Global Slave Trade, using the military, political, and economic power at its disposal. Other nations in the past may have outlawed slavery within their own borders, but the British Empire was the first to have success with "convincing" other nations to outlaw the practice.

Everyone is shit. White, black, asian, whomever. No ethnicity has a monopoly on being evil to other humans.

Like "hey, we were just committing mass murder, but we finally stopped and thought maybe we shouldn't be doing this so you should give us credit for it" is supposed to be normal or something.

Slavery was pretty much "normal". What was not normal was a nation spending its resources and effort to ending it on a global scale.

Credit where credit is due, the British Empire did horrible things and deserves all the scorn it receives for those actions - it also should be lauded for the good it did as well. It was a long road, but the actions of the British Empire created my home country of New Zealand - not a perfect nation, but one that is capable of examining its faults and enjoys being the 1st or 2nd least corrupt country on the planet.

Humans are still learning, and we've nearly got to the point where we do not judge someone for the colour of their skin, their genitalia, or where they enjoy placing said genitalia. I fear some nations might need big-stick mode of convincing, but I think we should employ other methods of pressure before resorting to violence.

It really fucking is. You need to just stop. You 100% are white washing slavery in an attempt to justify white people owning slaves and it is abhorrent of you to do so.

The British Empire committed endless attrocities and no amount of slavery ended by them absolves them.

You want to entirely praise a whole empire while blatantly ignoring its evils? Thats fucked up and hypocritical.

 

[Saelune]

Slavery is against the core beliefs of tribes all over the world who believed that no person could own a piece of the earth or those that dwell upon it, but instead we had to be granted permission by respecting all things. This is a shared belief among tribes in the Americas, Australia, Africa and others.

Not disputing any of that, but you'll find plenty of evidence for slavery in the Americas and Africa as well. Even in Australia, you'd just have to hop across the pond to find slavery being practiced.

" property ownership" as understood by Europeans was a later invention at odds with many cultures beliefs and not shared by much of the outside world.

Define "property ownership," because unless you're equating it with capitalism, you'll find plenty of examples in other civilizations on other continents.

What is your goal here? To prove that lots of people are terrible? Cause uh, duh?

Slavery was never ok. That large portions of the world went for centuries thinking it was ok is just proof that people are more bad than good and that anyone who thinks things cant get worse today are very very wrong.

I won't put words in Hawki's mouth, but I suspect that slavery was not invented in Europe. So, not so much that 'lots of people were terrible', but that there were terrible people everywhere.

Slavery was not invented in a single place. Too much of this conversation though is a petty excuse to defend white people participating in slavery and it is absolutely to defend racism.

Fair enough. I'm not going to defend white people's participation in the slave trade, modern or otherwise. Just wanted to clarify that other peoples have dealt in slaves, too.

Slavery is evil, period. But slavery in America was 100% racism and any pretending otherwise is racist.