Poll: 10 year old murders baby brother

[SilentCom]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42835911/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/?gt1=43001

Normally I wouldn't post stuff like this here because I know stupid stuff like this happens every now and then. The reason why I'm posting it however, is because of the completely brain dead comments this news report has gotten.

The report is short and basically says that a 10 year old girl was charged for 3rd degree murder for the death of her baby brother after shaking him. The baby sitter was charged for involuntary manslaughter and endangerment of a child.

What made me more upset was some of the comments made to this report:

"It is the adult who should be charged with some count of murder. I think 10 is a little young, not to know right from wrong, but children do not understand death. Where was the adult while this was going on?"


"It's crazy that a 9 year old is getting charged with murder. It's an awful situation, but lets be serious. The only one who should be charged is the babysitter. There is no reason for a 9 year old to be left alone with a baby to begin with."

What made me upset about these comments is that they are quick to dismiss the murder, even if was committed by a 10 year old girl (9 at the time of murder), and even quicker to blame the babysitter. I understand that the babysitter shares some of the guilt, but whos not to say that the babysitter didn't try stopping the 10 year old girl?

Also, just because shes 10 doesn't mean she doesn't understand that you're not suppose to violently shake and throw your baby bro. Seriously, that is messed up. Lastly, the final bit of comment about there being no reason to leave a 9 year old girl with her baby bro is complete bullshit. For one, she is not completely alone because the babysitter was there, and secondly, since when has it been wrong to trust your 10 year old daughter with your 11 month old son in the presence of a babysitter? I figure it is if the daughter is psycho...


What do you guys think? Do you think it's the babysitters fault or the girl for the murder?

 

[AndyFromMonday]

The babysitter should be charged for not taking care of the children. It was her job to take care of both children. She left an unsupervised baby with a 10 year old, an age at which legally you are not responsible for your actions. She's not a teenager, she's a child that pretty much does not discern from good, bad and everything in between unless told. She should not be charged with murder at an age where your mind is still growing.

Let me put it in another way. How many times as a teenager have you reflected back on your childhood and thought "man, I was stupid!". The same way this girl will look at her past self, except she won't think "man, I was stupid!", she'll probably consider suicide for taking another humans life unless she has some sort of mental illness. You're pretty much a different person every year until you become a teenager, an age where these "changes" tend to occur less frequently.

I feel sorry for the child. This stain will remain on her record for life, make it impossible to get a job or hell, live her life because of something she did at a point where the concept of counciousness was not present. She should be consulted by a psychiatrist and a physician to rule out any serious mental or physical illnesses that could have lead to this. A criminal record will do nothing to "rehabilitate" her. In fact, it WILL lead to suicide.

She needs counseling, not third degree murder charges. This was an accident.







EDIT:

In fact, I believe anything a person does well up until his 20's is accidental. A child's mind is to feeble to discern when it has done something wrong. Their sense of morality comes from someone else, usually the parents but they are easily influenced. By the time a person reaches teenagehood and they can actually discern from what is acceptable and what is not and at the same time use logic when making decisions their mind is extremely subsceptible to social influences. A teen who has done something that is considered "wrong" should be helped, not punished. In fact, this goes for every person who does not posses a mental illness. You can claim that once you legally become an adult you should discern from right and wrong but that's not true. Punishing a child for doing something they don't understand is wrong.

In fact, every single violent human behavior is due to negative influences during their early years.

 

[Onyx Oblivion]

This is simply tragedy with no one really to blame...

But we gotta blame someone for everything, right?

 

[Zantos]

I think they're all partly responsible for their actions. The daughter should at least be aware of violent actions, the babysitter was responsible for the wellbeing of the children at the time and the parents shouldn't have had just one babysitter to look after 2 children of such different ages.

However I think it shouldn't be viewed as an opertunity to shell out blame, rather an example of what not to do so that something this unfortunate doesn't happen again.

 

[badgersprite]

Blaming the babysitter for this is absolutely fucking stupid and it's bullshit. You don't expect 10 year old children to murder their siblings. When I was a kid and left to play with my little cousin, who is four years younger than me, and 8 years younger than her brother, we sure as hell weren't trying to kill her or engaging in any kind of dangerous or violent activity. In fact, anyone who has a younger sibling must surely know that there are times where you're left alone to play together, or left alone with your baby sibling for a few minutes. That's not your parents being negligent or failing to provide supervision, that's FUCKING NORMAL BEHAVIOUR.

That ten year old is seriously fucked up in the head to do something like that. Ten year olds definitely know better at that stage in life. I wouldn't charge her as an adult or anything, but she must have some kind of serious emotional issues. She should probably be being treated for mental illness.

By the time I was 10, I could tell right from wrong, and life from death, so I don't know what the fuck y'all are talking about.

Anyways, my feelings on this are, well, exactly what Onyx and Zantos said.

Precisely. Does no one remember being a kid themselves? Everyone always acts like children are born mentally retarded and are completely incapable of any kind of thought and reasoning. The answer to that is no. Children aren't like that. For fuck's sake, she's ten, not two.

 

[Wierdguy]

If a lion at the zoo randomly and unpredictably attacks another lion and kills it - is it the caretakers fault a lion is dead?

Not really the same thing I know but puts things in a little perspective. 10 (9) is not a completly innocent age, espechally in this day and age. Sure a child at that age may not be fully aware of every danger but some understanding of do's and dont's are there. That the babysitter left the two children alone for (what im going to assume wasnt THAT long a time) isnt really a reason to blame her - parents leave their children to their own devises quite often. You never have complete controll of your child. Besides - who the fuck would have been able to forsee that?

The babysitter is, in my eyes, completly blame free.

 

[AndyFromMonday]

Precisely. Does no one remember being a kid themselves? Everyone always acts like children are born mentally retarded and are completely incapable of any kind of thought and reasoning. The answer to that is no. Children aren't like that. For fuck's sake, she's ten, not two.

So what? 10 is not the new 20 for fucks sake. You do not discern right from wrong at that age, you simply follow what you're told. You cannot reason, you cannot use logical thought. In fact, you're pretty much a blank page on which very little has been written. Only by the time you actually understand why A is wrong and B is right can you really be held accountable. The girl is 10 years old. She has an entire life ahead of her and you people want her punished for this? I mean for fucks sake, she didn't exactly take a knife and stabbed the baby. You people disgust me.

 

[badgersprite]

Precisely. Does no one remember being a kid themselves? Everyone always acts like children are born mentally retarded and are completely incapable of any kind of thought and reasoning. The answer to that is no. Children aren't like that. For fuck's sake, she's ten, not two.

So what? 10 is not the new 20 for fucks sake. You do not discern right from wrong at that age, you simply follow what you're told. You cannot reason, you cannot use logical thought. In fact, you're pretty much a blank page on which very little has been written. Only by the time you actually understand why A is wrong and B is right can you really be held accountable. The girl is 10 years old. She has an entire life ahead of her and you people want her punished for this? I mean for fucks sake, she didn't exactly take a knife and stabbed the baby. You people disgust me.

You didn't even read my post, did you? I said this ten year old most likely has severe emotional issues and needs help, but that leaving a ten year old alone in a room with a baby does not make a baby sitter responsible for murder because most ten year olds don't go around shaking babies to death. Blaming the baby sitter for the actions of a mentally disturbed ten year old makes no sense.

 

[orangeban]

I'm pretty sure I knew not to shake babies to death when I was 10, in fact I definetly knew because I remember poking my baby cousing when I was 10 and freaking out when he started crying and I felt really guilty. I suspect the 10 year old has some issues that need sorting out but the babysitter didn't commit murder I know that much. Maybe neglect. Maybe. But not murder, that shits ridiculous.

 

[klaynexas3]

i think it's mostly the child's fault, give some blame to the babysitter for not keeping a closer eye on the daughter, but all in all, even with the blame, i think the girl should receive consoling, not a criminal record. she's not alright in the head, anyone that would kill their baby brother at the age of 10 is clearly not sane, even for a child. violence is not alright, i don't care how old you are.

 

[Caliostro]

Wait... What in the FUCK?

Did some of these people honestly even consider charging the 10 year old for this? Honestly? These people have absolutely no grasp of even the most basic child development do they? A 10 year old does not understand murder people. They don't even understand death. The idea of legally punishing a 10 year old kid for "murder" is depressing on so many levels.

This seems like tragic, but somewhat blameless accident. I will say that if anyone is to blame, it's the babysitter. She's a babysitter, it was her job to take care of them. You don't leave two kids unsupervised for long. The baby, especially, shouldn't be alone at all. BUT, we don't know the exact circunstances, so... There might have been a valid reason.

 

[AndyFromMonday]

You didn't even read my post, did you? I said this ten year old most likely has severe emotional issues and needs help, but that leaving a ten year old alone in a room with a baby does not make a baby sitter responsible for murder because most ten year olds don't go around shaking babies to death. Blaming the baby sitter for the actions of a mentally disturbed ten year old makes no sense.

Severe emotional issues? What do you mean?
Mentally disturbed? How can you claim that at such a young age the child is mentally disturbed. In fact, she way to young to be "mentally disturbed". If she was mentally disturbed then she would have shown behavioral changes much earlier than 10. In fact, she would have shown them as early as 1 year old. If the child was actually mentally disturbed then the parents would have known that and should have taken special care of her in the form of I don't know taking her to a doctor or maybe not leaving an unsupervised mentally ill child with a baby. Or maybe they could have warned the babysitter their child is odd and should be supervised at all times. If this was a mental health issue, the parents would've known. For fucks sake, she didn't stab the baby, she shook him. Hell, we don't even know if it was violent or not. All we know is that she shook him and the baby died.

The reason I'm saying she's to young to be mentally ill is because there's 2 periods when mental illnesses tend to appear. Either at birth or during teenagehood.

This is, in fact, an accident. At 10 you're not exactly Rand. You don't understand what's "right" or "wrong", you're doing what's being told. The child never thought that shaking the baby would have been a bad thing. If she had, she would have never shook him. For e.g., my 9 year old cousin threw lego cubes at my 2 year old cousin during playtime. She didn't think it was a bad thing, she thought of it as playing. It took the intervention of my aunt to tell her that what she was doing was wrong. The same applies here, albeit this case is more tragic than my example. Still, you cannot hold someone accountable for doing something at an age when they're dependent on their parents for a counsciousness.



Yes it does. She left both kids unattended when her job was clearly to "attend" them. She should have never left them unsupervised, AT ALL. It's her job to keep both kids safe and it's fairly obvious you do not leave a 10 year old unsupervised with a baby. You don't know WHAT they might do. Kids are unpredictable. They act by instinct, not by logical thought.

 

[DoctorPhil]

The babysitter is to blame, but I don't think anyone deserves punishment. It's just a tragedy, don't create more victims.

 

[BlindMessiah94]

10 year old kids are not idiots. I work with kids. They know the difference between safe and unsafe when taught. Maybe the kid had no idea shaking a baby can be fatal, but either way, it hardly sounds premeditated. People just want someone to blame, and are quicker to blame the babysitter than the parents or the kid.

 

[Dags90]

10 year old kids are not idiots. I work with kids. They know the difference between safe and unsafe when taught. Maybe the kid had no idea shaking a baby can be fatal, but either way, it hardly sounds premeditated. People just want someone to blame, and are quicker to blame the babysitter than the parents or the kid.

Yeah, when I was 9 I certainly knew that "babies = fragile" and what death was. Even my cousin (7), knows he has to be extra careful with his niece (4). I doubt it's murder but I definitely think the state should do something to make sure the kid isn't in developing into antisocial behaviors.

 

[badgersprite]

You didn't even read my post, did you? I said this ten year old most likely has severe emotional issues and needs help, but that leaving a ten year old alone in a room with a baby does not make a baby sitter responsible for murder because most ten year olds don't go around shaking babies to death. Blaming the baby sitter for the actions of a mentally disturbed ten year old makes no sense.

Severe emotional issues? What do you mean?
Mentally disturbed? How can you claim that at such a young age the child is mentally disturbed. In fact, she way to young to be "mentally disturbed". If she was mentally disturbed then she would have shown behavioral changes much earlier than 10. In fact, she would have shown them as early as 1 year old. If the child was actually mentally disturbed then the parents would have known that and should have taken special care of her in the form of I don't know taking her to a doctor or maybe not leaving an unsupervised mentally ill child with a baby. Or maybe they could have warned the babysitter their child is odd and should be supervised at all times. If this was a mental health issue, the parents would've known. For fucks sake, she didn't stab the baby, she shook him. Hell, we don't even know if it was violent or not. All we know is that she shook him and the baby died.

This is, in fact, an accident. At 10 you're not exactly Rand. You don't understand what's "right" or "wrong", you're doing what's being told. The child never thought that shaking the baby would have been a bad thing. If she had, she would have never shook him. For e.g., my 9 year old cousin threw lego cubes at my 2 year old cousin during playtime. She didn't think it was a bad thing, she thought of it as playing. It took the intervention of my aunt to tell her that what she was doing was wrong. The same applies here, albeit this case is more tragic than my example. Still, you cannot hold someone accountable for doing something at an age when they're dependent on their parents for a counsciousness.



Yes it does. She left both kids unattended when her job was clearly to "attend" them. She should have never left them unsupervised, AT ALL. It's her job to keep both kids safe and it's fairly obvious you do not leave a 10 year old unsupervised with a baby. You don't know WHAT they might do. Kids are unpredictable. They act by instinct, not by logical thought.

A ten year old's first response is to violently shake a baby to the point where it died? Yes, that sounds like unsound behaviour to me. Saying she probably has some kind of emotional problems and could use some counselling sounds entirely reasonable and rational to me. If she were two, that kind of behaviour might be expected, but a ten year old does know better. If you need any proof, just hang out with some ten year olds for a while.

You're basically arguing that ten year olds should never be left alone even for a second because they're obviously all so stupid that they'll kill themselves or do something disastrously wrong like set the house on fire if no one is watching them. I'm sorry, but that's just wrong. That isn't true at all. Ten year olds are not two year olds. Seriously, five year olds take the bus and the train to school by themselves every single day. Ten year olds are not mentally incapacitated vegetables with no ability to think coherently or reason.

Seriously, how old are you? Were you ever ten? Because I seriously doubt that at nine or ten you or your classmates would have engaged in this behaviour, or done things like set fires or cut yourself because no one told you it was wrong to do certain things. Saying that children are creatures of instinct doesn't work either. Instincts exist to STOP kids from doing stuff like that. Instincts aren't just hunting. Humans are social animals, which is why we have social instincts that tell us it's wrong to walk up and bash someone's head against a wall, or violently shake a baby.

This is why I suspect this child might have some kind of untreated condition. Maybe her parents were violent towards her and caused this behaviour in her. Maybe she has an untreated personality disorder (and yes, children can have serious mental and emotional disorders at early ages). She probably HAS shown behaviour like this before. I don't believe this is an isolated incident, because ten year olds do not go around shaking babies to death.

I don't know what world you live in, to be honest, if this is your view of ten year olds. What were you like in fourth and fifth grade?

EDIT: I agree that it's an accident and not premeditated and that the girl shouldn't be punished, and that no one should be blamed. What part of that are you struggling to get? I'm saying this is not normal behaviour and the girl should have access to all the help she needs.

 

[yndsu]

Both are at fault with this one.
The babysitter should not have left the baby alone. The 9 year old girl would be fine (in my eyes, i grew up in the country and i was left at home both alone and with my siblings when i was young and we were OK). Also, to say that 9 year old dont know right from wrong and understand the concept of death is wrong in my eyes.
If the kid at the age of 9 does not know right from wrong then the parents have done a crappy job at rasing their children. Also, my babybro died when i was 6 or 7 and believe me, i knew what death meant. Cried for hours and so on. So that point IMO is invalid as well.
At the same time, i cant really see the babysitter really being convicted of anything else
but negligense. And the girl with nothing more than involuntary manslaughter. But if she would end up convicted then what kind of sentence would they give to her ?
So this is really just an almighty mess to be honest.