Poll: 10 year old murders baby brother

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BiscuitTrouser

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May 19, 2008
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AndyFromMonday said:
yndsu said:
Also, not every bad thing a person does is because of negative influences in their youth. There are a lot of bad people who were not abused mentally/physically when young and still ended up doing a lot of bad things. A lot of crime done by people is because they were never reprimanded for the bad things they did when young and then because they didnt not learn about consecuences to their actions they in their older years think that they can do what ever they want.
Yes they do. Every single "criminal" who has either stolen or murdered has done so because they were either coerced, abused as a child or mentally ill. Oh, and ignoring your child is still considered abuse.
What about the spoiled kids who ruled their parents, live like kings in their house and are never disiplined? Hmm? Are you telling me these people NEVER commit crimes? Thats just wrong.

OT: We dont know enough to properly "blame" anyone. Remember in the past, before americans went all sue and blame happy we had a thing called an accident. Everyone lost, accidents made no one happy, it was a terrible thing for all parties involved. No one liked being in an accident. People cleaned them up, consoled those involved and tried to make sure the accident didnt happen again. Whats wrong with people. The girl should be very strictly told that what she did was very wrong, be given counceling and then comforted so this doesnt destroy her from the inside. The baby sitter is not super human. She needs to shit and answer the door or cook or in general do stuff where she cant watch the kids. This was a horrible tragic accident. Reprimand the girl, console her and do anything to ensure she is mentally sound. The baby sitter needs to be left alone. She would never want a baby to die. It was an accident. If a baby sitter looks the other way for a second and a kid leaps from the window as fast as possible, it isnt the baby sitters fault. They are only human. Let it go. Accidents happen. We are sorry for them and we resolve to prevent them from happening again. Its sad.
 

Th37thTrump3t

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Most 10 year olds lack the common sense of a nat. They live based on a "Do now, think later" way of thinking. Any good babysitter should know this.
 

Ritalynn

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Sep 22, 2010
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10 year old's fault, i've truely seen evil children. They exist, not because of parents. Not because of how they are raised. They are straight up evil.
 

Wilfy

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Oct 4, 2008
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I think it's a mixture of everyone's fault really.
But everyone saying a ten-year old doesn't know what death is or anything? I know people out of the UK will probably not be familiar with James Bulger's murder. Essentially, two ten-year old boys abducted the toddler,tortured him to death and left him on a train track. I would say ten-year olds, for most of the time, know what they are doing.
 

googleback

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Apr 15, 2009
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if that kid didn't understand what she was doing wass wrong then she has seriuos issues. but neither is completely to blame. this is a tragedy, not a crime.
 

veloper

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Jan 20, 2009
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Caligulas.dog said:
No, because whenever I'd deviate from the accepted norm someone was always there to tell me what I was doing was wrong.

Look, I'm tired. I'll just ask you a question and be on my way. If a child is capable of logical thought, why is it that they do not discuss subjects more complicated than things associated with childhood, say toys/tv show's? Children obviously hear about tragedies happening all the time on the news and yet they don't seem to understand WHY what happened in that part of the world is tragic. If they did, they'd discuss it. They are incapable of understanding the world around them. They need someone to guide them until they are able to do so. So, if children are capable of undersanting and by extension thinking logically why would they give more importance to say toys rather than say the fukushima disaster?
100 % aggree. There is a good reason that most western country (well ALL western country exept the usa) don't regulary charge children below the age 12 to 14 at all, as it's pretty much proven (by SCIENCE) that a anyone under the age of 12 is not capable to understand the consequenzes of his actions or can be manipulated very easily (lets throw in kids soldiers for example). Its just stupid to charge a 10 ten year old with murder, when the same 10 year old might have a completly different view on the worlds and morals in general within the next few years.
Google James Bulger

10 year olds are fully capable of conceiving anything in their minds and planning it in full detail.

Not saying this is anything like that, but don't confuse the 10 year old mind with that of a toddler.
 

LitleWaffle

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Jan 9, 2010
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AndyFromMonday said:
In fact, I believe anything a person does well up until his 20's is accidental.


Who in their right mind at age 16 would think it's a good idea to punch a baby in the face because nobody told them it was a bad idea?

It depends on maturity, and I doubt a nineteen year old still has to whine to his mom about a boo boo or this mean kid at school.

I've seen many 6 year olds have the knowledge of right and wrong. And 13 year olds that don't give in to peer pressure. You don't appear to have been around kids.

AndyFromMonday said:
In fact, every single violent human behavior is due to negative influences during their early years.
Wrong. Instincts of the old days didn't make us a bunch of pansies that would cry to our mother while trying to survive in the forest, they gave us that violent nature to survive.

How could you kill an animal for survival if you don't have that violent nature? Instinct provides it for you.
 

cystemic

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Jan 14, 2009
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i would not like to think that my future 10 year old daughter would be capable of murdering her baby brother, some fault must lay with this particular 10 year old girl, whether it be bad parenting or maybe shes a psychopath but more blame to her than the baby sitter.
 

the_green_dragon

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Nov 18, 2009
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i Feel bad for the babysitter.

Parents: "Hey want an easy $20"
Babysitter: "Yeah sure, I could use the cash, should be an easy night"

Later that evening.....

Babysitter: *Sees dead baby* "Ohhh F*&%!!!"
 

LuckyClover95

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Jun 7, 2010
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The babysitter shouldn't have to keep an eye on both children constantly. If it was a toddler and a baby then maybe yeah, they should be in your sites, but I know that I would trust a 10 year old not to do that and I'd let the 10 year old wander around the house.
 

Champion360

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AndyFromMonday said:
In fact, I believe anything a person does well up until his 20's is accidental.

So if a 20 year old go's and shoots a random person it's an accident?
 

Voidpulse

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Dec 6, 2010
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I'll make a short preface by saying that my personal opinion of any "punishment" in this case should be restricted to severe neglect on the part of the babysitter, and extensive counseling on the part of the 10-year-old to determine possible mental illness. It would also most likely be appropriate to apply various cognitive tests to see if the child in question has developed properly. Neurologically as well as socially.

It seems that the two big questions in this discussion is whether a ten-year-old child can distinguish right from wrong (moral development), and whether or not they can logically predict outcomes of their actions (cognitive development).
I apologize in advance: relevant wall of text incoming.

If we first consider the question of whether or not the child is capable of logical reasoning, we can examine the work of Jean Piaget and his ideas of stages of cognitive development in children. By the age of 6-12 children should have acquired the necessary cognitive ability to demonstrate effective planning towards an end goal, as well as show a marked decline in their egocentrism (the inability of a child to decenter form their own perspective and take on another's. E.g. a son who wants to get daddy an action figure for his birthday or maintains that the moon follows them around when walking out at night).
Gardner and Rogoff conducted a study in 1990 comparing the performance of groups of 4-6 year old children with groups of 7-10 year old children in a circular maze-puzzle. The children of 7-10 showed an ability to plan almost their entire moveset ahead of time to achieve the desired outcome, while the 4-6y.o. group could only plan ahead to a certain point from their startpoint and subsequently did poorly on the test in terms of number of errors made. There have also been studies involving children solving simple Tower of Hanoi problems (so they are good for something, who'd have thunk?) showing that children as young as 7 had ability to consider their actions logically in terms of reaching their desired goal with as few moves as possible before actually taking an action. (Klahr, 1989)
In conclusion, I believe that a child of 9 years should be able to logically asess that the outcome of shaking and throwing a baby would be harmful. I do not believe that the babysitter should have foreseen this behavior.

As for the moral development: Lawrence Kohlberg conducted studies from 1969 to the early 2000's presenting children to various ethical dilemmas and asking them whether the person involved was right or wrong to do as he did, explaining why they felt so. His most famous ethical dilemma is from 1969, is called the Heinz-dilemma, and should be familiar to most people (shortened here from original version):

"Heinz needs medicine for his dying wife, the only druggist who has the medicine charges ten times as much as it costs him to make it. Heinz goes to all the people he knows to raise the money, but can only raise about half. He offers the money he has to the druggist along with his story, but is turned away. Desperate, Heinz breaks into the store at night and steals the medicine for his wife, was he right to do so?"

Kohlberg constructed six moral stages from his results, and concluded that children reached what he called Stage 2 around the age of 7 or 8. Children at this age realize that people can have persepctives different from their own, sometimes even confilicting with them. Thus, they believe that what is morally right depends on the specific perspective of the person in the dilemma. This results in a belief that what is morally right is the action that serves one's own immediate interests and letting others do the same. Fairness is understood in the context of equal exchanges. Children at this stage might respond to the Heinz-dilemma that Heinz should steal the drug, since he would want his wife to do the same for him should he get sick himself.
Quoting directly from Cole, Cole and Lightfoot (2009): "Stage 2 (of Kohlbergs theory)is the key transition associated with school-age children's ability to get along without adult supervision."

Based on this, I can't say that 9-year-olds are entirely expected to perform properly around babies, but they definitely should be able to recognize that shaking and throwing a baby will not serve their own interest, and can be expected to be without supervision for short amounts of time. Keep in mind that we don't know everything about this case based on the rather short article provided. It is not uncommon for children that age to show small resentment towards younger siblings for various reasons, decreased parental attention for example. Most children do not react this violently to such percieved slights, however, especially not at this age.

On the basis of what I know of the case and the above: I do not believe the babysitter should be charged with anything beyond possibly neglect, depending on the circumstances. The 10-year-old should also be closely monitored for any pathological conditions, psychological or neurological. Not outrightly punished though, that would accomplish absolutely nothing, least of all any form of rehabilitation.
 

S3Cs4uN 8

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AndyFromMonday said:
she'll probably consider suicide for taking another humans life unless she has some sort of mental illness..
Unless she turns out shallow, heartless and spiteful like me
 

The Funslinger

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Sep 12, 2010
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AndyFromMonday said:
badgersprite said:
Precisely. Does no one remember being a kid themselves? Everyone always acts like children are born mentally retarded and are completely incapable of any kind of thought and reasoning. The answer to that is no. Children aren't like that. For fuck's sake, she's ten, not two.

So what? 10 is not the new 20 for fucks sake. You do not discern right from wrong at that age, you simply follow what you're told. You cannot reason, you cannot use logical thought. In fact, you're pretty much a blank page on which very little has been written. Only by the time you actually understand why A is wrong and B is right can you really be held accountable. The girl is 10 years old. She has an entire life ahead of her and you people want her punished for this? I mean for fucks sake, she didn't exactly take a knife and stabbed the baby. You people disgust me.
Don't know what you were like as a ten year old, but I sure as hell could discern right from wrong. Obviously the standard punishment doesn't quite work in this case, but the reasons you've put for it are downright bullshit.
 

crudus

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Oct 20, 2008
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ReaperzXIII said:
Blaming the babysitter unless she was standing there and letting it happen, is really fucking retarded, for all you know she could've been making them food, getting something, going toilet or just generally turning around for a few minutes and hoping that the child won't MURDER HER BABY BROTHER.
There is notoriously little information about this case. It literally just says "Baby died from injuries given to him by his 9-year-old sister. The only adult in the house was a 56-year-old babysitter. Charges filed against both parties". No information about at what point the child was shaken, where the baby sitter was, etc. If she went to the loo and had no knowledge of the shaken baby then I would say she has no fault in this. If she was out dealing drugs or something then I would say she should have quite a few charges dropped on her.
 

Colour Scientist

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Jul 15, 2009
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I can't believe people are suggesting sending a 9 year old to Juvi for this.
Is she at fault? Probably.
Should she have known better? Yes.
At 10, can she really assess the full consequences of her actions for both herself and her brother, particularly if she's angry? No.

As a nine year old most can tell what's right and what is wrong but it seems highly unlikely that the 10 year old set out to murder her little brother, knowing the full implications of her actions. She's still a child, capable of logical thought maybe, but still a child.

Babysitters are paid to prevent this kind of thing happening, she wasn't a house-sitter, she was there to make sure nothing happened to the baby. I don't see it has her fault either though, she's only human but everyone seems so adamant that someone has to suffer for it.

Why don't we blame the parents for leaving the house? Or the babysitter's parents for not teaching her how to look after children better? Or the hospital for not being able to save the baby?

It's a horribly tragic situation but people really need to stop calling for the blood of a 10 year old.