Poll: A sensitive question about transgender and locker rooms

[kuolonen]

I'd say go to the locker room that matches your set of genitals. And post-op you are the designated as the new set of genitals. That's how I feel, but honestly don't care that much on this matter, as in my country we have stuff like Hiring based on gender being illegal, meaning that members of opposite sex are often on cleaning duty at the lockers/showers of the other sex.

But I wonder if this thing is going to be so clear cut. Western world is becoming increasingly multicultural, and not to point any fingers in particular, but not all cultures are a-ok with genders mixing. Case in point, there are currently talks in my country about designing new building blueprints for immigrants, which will have rooms properly segregated between males and females. And that's between family.

Oh well, interesting times ahead. I wonder which minorities privilege will prevail, the cultural or the sexual?

 

[The Lunatic]

So, to play devil's advocate.


Should Gyms, being a private establishment, be allowed to have the say on the matter?

Should gyms be allowed to state that only Males may enter the "Men's room" and only females may enter the "Woman's"?

 

[carnex]

So, to play devil's advocate.


Should Gyms, being a private establishment, be allowed to have the say on the matter?

Should gyms be allowed to state that only Males may enter the "Men's room" and only females may enter the "Woman's"?

As it's private property and private business they can and have every right to demand anything as long as it's not against law. There are female only gyms, that's enough said.

I for one would make a gym that you would have to use stark naked but it would be free of charge if I had money to burn. Just for the heck of it.

 

[Reasonable Atheist]

So lets look at why sex segregated locker/bathrooms exist in the first place, in an honest manner. They exist so females can feel safe from males when they are at their most vulnerable. Men's rooms in my view only exist because ladies rooms exist. I do not believe it is reasonable to expect a room full of women to have their sense of security comprmised so that one person can feel.... i dont know.... more fem? As the vulcans say, the needs of the many. I think fear of sexual abuse trumps gender identity.

 

[Thaluikhain]

So lets look at why sex segregated locker/bathrooms exist in the first place, in an honest manner. They exist so females can feel safe from males when they are at their most vulnerable. Men's rooms in my view only exist because ladies rooms exist. I do not believe it is reasonable to expect a room full of women to have their sense of security comprmised so that one person can feel.... i dont know.... more fem? As the vulcans say, the needs of the many. I think fear of sexual abuse trumps gender identity.

Trans people are much, much more likely to be sexually assaulted than the other way around. Cis people might feel unsafe around them, but there is no truth to base this on. Should we allow other groups to be excluded based on people feeling insecure around them?

 

[VanQ]

So lets look at why sex segregated locker/bathrooms exist in the first place, in an honest manner. They exist so females can feel safe from males when they are at their most vulnerable. Men's rooms in my view only exist because ladies rooms exist. I do not believe it is reasonable to expect a room full of women to have their sense of security comprmised so that one person can feel.... i dont know.... more fem? As the vulcans say, the needs of the many. I think fear of sexual abuse trumps gender identity.

Trans people are much, much more likely to be sexually assaulted than the other way around. Cis people might feel unsafe around them, but there is no truth to base this on. Should we allow other groups to be excluded based on people feeling insecure around them?

Let's think of it this way.

Do you think it's more likely that a transgendered person (with a male body) is likely to be assaulted if they use the locker room and don't say anything? Wouldn't most of the men in the room just assume it's another guy changing and do their own thing? God knows when I change at the gym I don't want anything to do with the naked people around me.

Do you not think that if we allowed transgendered people (with male bodies) free reign to use female locker rooms that there would not be some terrible people out there that wouldn't take advantage of that?

Perhaps the best option would be for there to be a separate locker room for transgendered people to change in. Considering how small the number of transgendered people are compared to the cis-gendered population, it might not always be viable to give them a change room as large as a male/female one. Kind of like how handicapped stalls exist.

No, I'm not calling transgendered people handicapped, before anyone jumps down my throat. It was an example of an existing solution to a different but similar problem, in that handicapped people have difficulty using regular bathroom stalls and so an alternative is offered.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Let's think of it this way.

Do you think it's more likely that a transgendered person (with a male body) is likely to be assaulted if they use the locker room and don't say anything? Wouldn't most of the men in the room just assume it's another guy changing and do their own thing? God knows when I change at the gym I don't want anything to do with the naked people around me.

Do you not think that if we allowed transgendered people (with male bodies) free reign to use female locker rooms that there would not be some terrible people out there that wouldn't take advantage of that?

Trans women being forced into men's areas and being assaulted is something we see all the time. Trans women in women's areas is not something we see causing problems (beyond giving politicians et al something to rant about)

 

[MrFalconfly]

We have rules for a reason.

You being a statistical (and maybe genetic) anomaly doesn't grant you rights unavailable to the rest of us.

I can't go into the womens locker-room because of my physical characteristics (I am straight, just FYI), so on the same token, I don't care that some transpeople are of the conviction that they are male or female. Facts are they posses a set of physical characteristics which correspond to a certain locker-room.

 

[Silvanus]

Plenty of evidence to show they honestly believe they should be the opposing gender sure

And the neurobiological evidence [http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html#.VP3pzPmsV8E], showing that the brains of trans people tend to more closely biologically resemble the brains of their identified gender.

but the reality of their circumstance is what they are denying.

The only "reality" that you and I can ascertain for certain is that they have the body of one sex. It would be rather presumptuous (and arrogant, and unscientific) to extrapolate from that that the inside must match the outside, just because it does for you.

There's numerous psychological disorders where people have cut ties with reality but not one of them is given special treatment and I don't see any reason for people with this disorder to be an exception to the rules. I think the primary problem is not that people feel they are in this incorrect container, but why that's so distressing to them? At the end of the day lots of people aren't happy with the body they're born with. The disorder lies in you're inability to accept it and move on from it. People who defend it to death that this person is really trapped in the wrong body is where it seems like nonsense to me until we can scientifically prove otherwise and have a realistic answer for other than body mutilation.

You're arguing against the scientific consensus (and the only evidence available); you'll need something actually scientific. This is just open rhetorical questions and expressions of disbelief.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

Yes, but just like you do not like having what others want you to do imposed on to you, you do not get to decide for all other transgenders what they should feel comfortable doing.

Where did I do this? Why exactly is a person saying they want to be treated beyond a superficial piece of genetic coding somehow "Imposing their will." What lunacy is this?

MANY two spirits have no desire to risk their health to undergo dangerous surgeries when they are perfectly healthy and happy with their bodies the way they are because they were raised in an environment that never expected them to be anything else and celebrated them for being who they are. Why would they want to change when those around them and themselves see themselves as being perfect already?

Not everyone sees things the same way, and for you, you would have been comfortable using the toilets and showers pictured above prior to surgery, or even after? There really are not a lot of options for those who are using these facilities. If we do not require the law to provide additional facilities, they will be forced to use showers and restrooms as pictured above...

For starters, I'm not 'two spirit' ... I renounce it because it seeks to pretend I'm something I'm not. I'm a human, first and foremost. An animal gifted with a large enough brain to ask the pivotal question of self. That is all. Also ... not seeking treatment (because that's what it bloody well is) would have been far more dangerous to my life and livelihood. After I started seeking HRT and accepted what I wanted, and accepted that I hold no allegiance to anybody but my own nature and my compact to live well and live well for others, treatment became the only moral good in my eyes. A celebration of my liberty.

My grades improved. My capacities to apply myself doubled. My strength returned. Pretending like these haven't been boons, and that it is merely a point of order that I have to accept I didn't win some cosmic lottery at birth is to pretend like I haven't my right to rebel against probability. All people have their right to self authentication and to exist as the driver of their own fate.

What you espoue may be 'good enough' for some people ... but I'm not one of those people ... and in the same way I would celebrate someone's right to attaching themselves to your ideals, I will not stand for pretending that such cultural values are applicable to all by dint of some poorly defined essentialist ideal that all people on the planet somehow share. Such is the pursuit of liberty that it should arm its people to realise they are the captain of their own soul.

No matter what is done, a transgendered person will never know what it is like to have been born a body of the opposite sex, their brain will never be one sex or the other even if they make their body the way they think it should be. I see pressuring people who have healthy bodies to have risky surgeries that could affect their health and shorten their lifespan because society says " this is what a man or woman should look like" rather than appreciating them for who they are and them realizing they are already perfect, and not forcing them to choose between being a man or woman at all. It would be better for more to be happy with the way they are rather than allow media and societal pressures to give them a poor self image enough to risk self harm to change themselves.

Given that all people have a right to their bodies, and that medical scientific consensus disproves this, what basis do you have to argue this point? As I said before ... it would have been far more risky for me not to seek treatment. I am in the vast majority of the trans community. Why not allow others the same liberty that I have enjoyed, particularly when I can say that such 'risky surgeries' have improved my livelihood manifold?

Being outside the tribe is dangerous, but there is no greater gift than being able to own yourself. Disallowing people this fundamental right is doing nothing more than enslaving them to a broken ideology that continually refuses to accept scientific proofs to wellbeing or basic philosophical congruence with the tenets of liberty.

I think that the more society accepts them for who they are, the less people overall will have such a poor self image that they want to change it. When society already sees you as perfect, you often will see yourself that way as well.

But no one is perfect. Acceptance is all that trans people ask for ... but acceptance includes the means of owning oneself and one's body. Perfection assumes some cosmic lottery being won everytime someone is born. No. There is hatred, violence, anger, depression, iniquity, disparity, despair, anguish, grief and misery ... we are FAR from perfect. The best we can hope for is to be given enough tools to carve out our own existence and the meaning of self.

The nature of the human creature is not to be happy, but to be free and owning their will to power.

 

[Reasonable Atheist]

So lets look at why sex segregated locker/bathrooms exist in the first place, in an honest manner. They exist so females can feel safe from males when they are at their most vulnerable. Men's rooms in my view only exist because ladies rooms exist. I do not believe it is reasonable to expect a room full of women to have their sense of security comprmised so that one person can feel.... i dont know.... more fem? As the vulcans say, the needs of the many. I think fear of sexual abuse trumps gender identity.

Trans people are much, much more likely to be sexually assaulted than the other way around. Cis people might feel unsafe around them, but there is no truth to base this on. Should we allow other groups to be excluded based on people feeling insecure around them?

But you do understand my point right? The ladies room exists so they can feel safe. Allowing an extremely small minority to compromise that feeling of safety defeats the whole purpose. Im not saying they should be forced into the men's room. Many men are huge assholes and thats why they are not allowed in the ladies room. There needs to be a different solution, if any.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Yes, but just like you do not like having what others want you to do imposed on to you, you do not get to decide for all other transgenders what they should feel comfortable doing.

Where did I do this? Why exactly is a person saying they want to be treated beyond a superficial piece of genetic coding somehow "Imposing their will." What lunacy is this?

MANY two spirits have no desire to risk their health to undergo dangerous surgeries when they are perfectly healthy and happy with their bodies the way they are because they were raised in an environment that never expected them to be anything else and celebrated them for being who they are. Why would they want to change when those around them and themselves see themselves as being perfect already?

Not everyone sees things the same way, and for you, you would have been comfortable using the toilets and showers pictured above prior to surgery, or even after? There really are not a lot of options for those who are using these facilities. If we do not require the law to provide additional facilities, they will be forced to use showers and restrooms as pictured above...

For starters, I'm not 'two spirit' ... I renounce it because it seeks to pretend I'm something I'm not. I'm a human, first and foremost. An animal gifted with a large enough brain to ask the pivotal question of self. That is all. Also ... not seeking treatment (because that's what it bloody well is) would have been far more dangerous to my life and livelihood. After I started seeking HRT and accepted what I wanted, and accepted that I hold no allegiance to anybody but my own nature and my compact to live well and live well for others, treatment became the only moral good in my eyes. A celebration of my liberty.

My grades improved. My capacities to apply myself doubled. My strength returned. Pretending like these haven't been boons, and that it is merely a point of order that I have to accept I didn't win some cosmic lottery at birth is to pretend like I haven't my right to rebel against probability. All people have their right to self authentication and to exist as the driver of their own fate.

What you espoue may be 'good enough' for some people ... but I'm not one of those people ... and in the same way I would celebrate someone's right to attaching themselves to your ideals, I will not stand for pretending that such cultural values are applicable to all by dint of some poorly defined essentialist ideal that all people on the planet somehow share. Such is the pursuit of liberty that it should arm its people to realise they are the captain of their own soul.

No matter what is done, a transgendered person will never know what it is like to have been born a body of the opposite sex, their brain will never be one sex or the other even if they make their body the way they think it should be. I see pressuring people who have healthy bodies to have risky surgeries that could affect their health and shorten their lifespan because society says " this is what a man or woman should look like" rather than appreciating them for who they are and them realizing they are already perfect, and not forcing them to choose between being a man or woman at all. It would be better for more to be happy with the way they are rather than allow media and societal pressures to give them a poor self image enough to risk self harm to change themselves.

Given that all people have a right to their bodies, and that medical scientific consensus disproves this, what basis do you have to argue this point? As I said before ... it would have been far more risky for me not to seek treatment. I am in the vast majority of the trans community. Why not allow others the same liberty that I have enjoyed, particularly when I can say that such 'risky surgeries' have improved my livelihood manifold?

Being outside the tribe is dangerous, but there is no greater gift than being able to own yourself. Disallowing people this fundamental right is doing nothing more than enslaving them to a broken ideology that continually refuses to accept scientific proofs to wellbeing or basic philosophical congruence with the tenets of liberty.

I think that the more society accepts them for who they are, the less people overall will have such a poor self image that they want to change it. When society already sees you as perfect, you often will see yourself that way as well.

But no one is perfect. Acceptance is all that trans people ask for ... but acceptance includes the means of owning oneself and one's body. Perfection assumes some cosmic lottery being won everytime someone is born. No. There is hatred, violence, anger, depression, iniquity, disparity, despair, anguish, grief and misery ... we are FAR from perfect. The best we can hope for is to be given enough tools to carve out our own existence and the meaning of self.

The nature of the human creature is not to be happy, but to be free and owning their will to power.

Just as one can be a man or a woman, they can be a two spirit, that IS HUMAN, and it is insulting to all of those who take pride in being two spirit to claim they are not. If your brain scans show you to be between to male and female spectrum, that is what would be defined as two spirit by definition. The brain scans of males, female, and transgenders are different, and the transgender brain is neither male or female, and they should be proud of this, it is natural and healthy. In Native American cultures, these people are called two spirits, that is not an insult, or degrading it is what they are called instead of transgender. Many consider transgender to be more of a degrading term than two spirits and prefer to use that solely to define themselves.

It is great that those things helped you with what you decided was wrong with your life, the issue though is what you experienced in your life that made you feel you needed to both externally and internally. Societies expectations of what it means to be male or female are part of the problem, not all societies make people feel as though they have to be one or the other in the first place. You cannot rewind and erase everything you have been exposed to since birth and change how your own perceptions of what it means to be male and female to auto correct all of the negative data you have received, but some who were instead celebrated for being two spirit never developed a negative self image, instead they loved themselves just he way they are. It is great these things helped you, and I hope they continue to help you, Some however, do not see that there is anything wrong on themselves that needs to be fixed, nor should they be pressured to. If we change societies view of " what is normal" we will also change how people view themselves. When it becomes normal and considered a great thing to be two spirited, less people will have the desire to change themselves because they will already feel normal.

The problem is not feeling you are perfect to begin with, what in your environment made you feel that way, and how we go about making everyone feel as they are perfect the way they are so they all have a positive self image from the start.

Medical consensus disproves what? My choice fields of study were Immunology and Pediatric Medicine, and I am fully aware that the studies have shown and that the transgender brain scans have shown that their brains are neither male or female, but in between. I think you misunderstand, I am not saying that you should not have surgeries if that is what you feel you need. However, I am stating that we need to address the issues in society that are pressuring people into thinking they are broken and need fixed, when they are not. It is only in your mind that you think your body is not perfect due to pressures society places on you. I think those pressures in society need to be addressed, that does not mean that I do not think that you chose to do what was best for you. You do realize that what you chose to do being the best thing for you, does not mean that it is necessarily the best thing for all trans persons, and not all view their body in a negative manner, nor should they be made to feel there is something wrong being the way they are. They need to know it is a gift, it is a great thing to be trans even without surgery and not be made to feel as though they have to have surgery. Just like everyone does not need a nose job, and everyone does not need breast implants, not everyone needs to change their body to fit cookie cutter molds, it is the molds that need to go and what society considers normal so that people can just love themselves to begin with.

You should understand, I am not saying that you having surgery is wrong for you, it helps many transgenders attain what they see as a "normal life". I am saying you were already perfect before the surgery, just not enough people let you know that, and that Transgenders should not feel like they even have to have surgery to have a normal life, their life should be normal before that as well. It is society that is making their life not normal, not the way they were born.

I disagree that no one is perfect. I see life as perfect already, like the most precious work of art, that the differences are gifts, not imperfections. I see people as perfect from the day they are born. Life is a very beautiful and precious thing, that I have a great deal of respect for. Where I come from, everyone is treated as perfect from the beginning, that is why the idea that they need to change themselves to fit in or " be better" is a foreign one to some, because they already fit in and have a place in the community. Where I come from, there is no pressure on people to " change".
Funny you speak of " human nature" that way.. LOL
That is similar to how Hopis view freedom and choice:
http://voluntaryist.com/forthcoming/unconquered.html#.VP4D0fzF_TQ

 

[Phlap]

I feel that gender-specific locker rooms and toilets are pointless anyway. I have a unisex bathroom in my house (as I'm sure everyone else in this thread does) and it's not exactly a point of interest.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Let's think of it this way.

Do you think it's more likely that a transgendered person (with a male body) is likely to be assaulted if they use the locker room and don't say anything? Wouldn't most of the men in the room just assume it's another guy changing and do their own thing? God knows when I change at the gym I don't want anything to do with the naked people around me.

Do you not think that if we allowed transgendered people (with male bodies) free reign to use female locker rooms that there would not be some terrible people out there that wouldn't take advantage of that?

Trans women being forced into men's areas and being assaulted is something we see all the time. Trans women in women's areas is not something we see causing problems (beyond giving politicians et al something to rant about)

Of course this solution is not really even a band-aid for a very serious problem. We have to address the issue of people assaulting anyone to begin with, but that takes time. This is just a temporary means to try and create a barrier between victims and perpetrators, and put them in another spot that we perceive as being safer. Until we address the issues in society that are causing the violence, we can only offer flimsy means to try and keep people safe from those doing these things. We cannot really use women's facilities as a refuge from violence in the mens facilities, we eventually have to address the problem of the violence.

 

[FirstNameLastName]

...Many men are huge assholes and thats why they are not allowed in the ladies room...

Oh god, I laughed so hard my stomach hurts.

I'm not sure why, but something about the way that was phrased just makes it unintentionally funny.

 

[Reasonable Atheist]

...Many men are huge assholes and thats why they are not allowed in the ladies room...

Oh god, I laughed so hard my stomach hurts.

I'm not sure why, but something about the way that was phrased just makes it unintentionally funny.

Glad i could brighten your day.

 

[tippy2k2]

Let's think of it this way.

Do you think it's more likely that a transgendered person (with a male body) is likely to be assaulted if they use the locker room and don't say anything? Wouldn't most of the men in the room just assume it's another guy changing and do their own thing? God knows when I change at the gym I don't want anything to do with the naked people around me.

Do you not think that if we allowed transgendered people (with male bodies) free reign to use female locker rooms that there would not be some terrible people out there that wouldn't take advantage of that?

Trans women being forced into men's areas and being assaulted is something we see all the time. Trans women in women's areas is not something we see causing problems (beyond giving politicians et al something to rant about)

Not that I don't believe you (and you seem far more informed on this debate than I am so that's why I'm asking you) but do you have stats or anything like that to back the "transwoman more likely to be raped"-thing up (if you already gave them earlier, I apologize. This thread got a lot longer than I anticipated and I've been gone for the last day or so)?

I'm sure that it does happen but is there anything "official" that shows that a transwoman (who, for everyone else in the area, looks like a man unless she goes around telling strangers that she's female) is that much more likely to be raped than any other person?

 

[IMissedThatOne]

Let's think of it this way.

Do you think it's more likely that a transgendered person (with a male body) is likely to be assaulted if they use the locker room and don't say anything? Wouldn't most of the men in the room just assume it's another guy changing and do their own thing? God knows when I change at the gym I don't want anything to do with the naked people around me.

Do you not think that if we allowed transgendered people (with male bodies) free reign to use female locker rooms that there would not be some terrible people out there that wouldn't take advantage of that?

Trans women being forced into men's areas and being assaulted is something we see all the time. Trans women in women's areas is not something we see causing problems (beyond giving politicians et al something to rant about)

Not that I don't believe you (and you seem far more informed on this debate than I am so that's why I'm asking you) but do you have stats or anything like that to back the "transwoman more likely to be raped"-thing up (if you already gave them earlier, I apologize. This thread got a lot longer than I anticipated and I've been gone for the last day or so)?

I'm sure that it does happen but is there anything "official" that shows that a transwoman (who, for everyone else in the area, looks like a man unless she goes around telling strangers that she's female) is that much more likely to be raped than any other person?

I was reading this thread silently. I did not post yet because I felt like I couldn't add anything.
I always wonder how transwomen navigate through their daily lives with that stress of not knowing if their upsetting someone if they need to pee. It's seems that they're in a bad position no matter what place they use.

Anyway: considering statistics of sexual asssault the first thing that I found was this:
http://www.ovc.gov/pubs/forge/sexual_numbers.html

Qoute:
"Statistics documenting transgender people's experience of sexual violence indicate shockingly high levels of sexual abuse and assault. One in two transgender individuals are sexually abused or assaulted at some point in their lives.1 Some reports estimate that transgender survivors may experience rates of sexual assault up to 66 percent, often coupled with physical assaults or abuse.2 This indicates that the majority of transgender individuals are living with the aftermath of trauma and the fear of possible repeat victimization. "

A second source seems to confirm this:
http://www.rrsonline.org/?page_id=944

Quote:
"Most studies reveal that approximately 50% of transgender people experience sexual violence at some point in their lifetime."

but I didn't check the sources well. They might be biased.

Then there is also the report of the williams institue which specifically targets the siuation of bathrooms and harrasment:
http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/study-transgender-people-experience-discrimination-trying-to-use-bathrooms/

but it's a small sample so conclusions should be made with caution:

Here are some interesing details:

"Survey Respondents? Experiences with Gendered Public Restrooms
The survey assessed people?s experiences accessing or using gender-segregated public restrooms by asking specifically about denial of access to facilities, verbal harassment, and physical assault. Overall, 65 respondents (70 percent) reported experiencing one or more of these problems. Eighteen percent of respondents have been denied access to a gender-segregated public restroom, while 68 percent have experienced some sort of verbal harassment and 9 percent have experienced some form of physical assault when accessing or using gender-segregated public restrooms."

"
Health
Fifty-four percent of respondents reported having some sort of physical problem from trying to avoid using public bathrooms, all of whom reported that they ?held it? to avoid public restrooms. Health problems that respondents reported due to avoiding using public bathrooms include: dehydration (n=9), urinary tract infections (n=7), kidney infection (n=2), and other kidney-related problems (n=2). Six percent of respondents have seen a doctor for health problems caused by avoiding public restrooms."

Participation in Public Life
Problems or expectation of problems with gender-segregated public facilities can impact a person?s participation in public life, causing him or her to refrain from going to public places or attending public events. Fifty-eight percent of respondents reported that they have avoided going out in public due to a lack of safe restroom facilities. Thirty percent of respondents reported not attending a specific event for a variety of reasons related to public restrooms. The most common reasons for avoiding an event were that the length of the event was too long to avoid using the restroom (n=20) and a lack a familiarity with the venue where the event was being held (n=18). Respondents also reported avoiding events because the event was not important enough to risk problems with restrooms (n=17), restrooms at the event seemed unsafe (n=15), and there would be no friends or people the respondent knew at the event who could help navigate the restroom (n=14)."


It seems transgender people rather avoid using sex-segregated places all together.