Poll: A sensitive question about transgender and locker rooms

[tippy2k2]

We've had a few of these transgender threads lately but I saw the news story and frankly, it's been an issue that I think I've argued with myself long enough that it's time to bring in some other voices besides mine (that guys a jerk anyway).

The story; a woman has had her membership revoked from Planet Fitness after complaining about a "man" (who identifies as a woman) being in the woman's locker room (her words, not mine).

Spoiler: Story

MIDLAND, Michigan? It?s a business that sells itself on being non-judgmental but Planet Fitness has allegedly revoked the membership of a woman for complaining, according to WNEM.

Yvette Cormier, a member at the Midland location, says she had no idea what that meant until a few days ago.

?I was stunned and shocked. He looked like a man. He did not look like a woman,? says Cormier. Cormier is talking about a person who walked into the woman?s locker room while she was getting undressed. She says she couldn?t believe her eyes.

?This is very unprofessional. This is very scary,? continues Cormier. Cormier says she immediately complained to the front desk and eventually to corporate offices.

?They told me the same thing, that he was allowed in there because that?s the sex he wants to be,? says Cormier.

Cormier says she understands that some men self-identify as women and some women self-identify as men but says this person looked like a man and that caught her off guard.

Cormier lost her membership for violating the company?s ?Judgement Free Zone? policy.

Moving forward, Cormier says she isn?t concerned with getting back her membership. Her concern now is to warn other women at this gym to make them aware of this policy, because she says Planet Fitness failed to warn her.

The company told TV5 that Cormier?s concerns about the policy regarding gender identity was inappropriate and disruptive by complaining to other members at the gym.

Frankly, getting an intelligent conversation out of comment sections is like debating...well...anything on Youtube comments and I really hope that this is a conversation that won't turn sour here because...

I am 100% torn on this.

On one hand, I am of the mind that transgender is absolutely a medical thing and not just people who are confused (although that can sometimes be the case) and that society should be more open to helping them. On the other hand, what about the rights of the women in the locker room? Are they not entitled to an area where they will feel safe to change and shower and whatnot without worrying about a guy who (legitimately or just some perv loop-holing the system) wants to be in there with them?

Now ideally I would figure a unisex locker room/bathroom would be the best option but if for some reason that is not doable, how do you see this? If you are the owner of a gym, how do you handle this type of situation?

POLL: I have NOT included an option for a unisex locker room because that seems like the easy cop-out answer. If you're answering the poll, I want to force you to choose one way or the other.

EDIT: March 10th

It has been brought to my attention that The Daily Mail has pictures, which I feel will help inform the thread. The Daily Mail story:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2985579/Transgender-woman-believes-s-center-Planet-Fitness-policy-controversy-says-used-women-s-locker-room-twice-hang-coat-purse.html

Spoiler: Pictures

The Transgendered woman in question

Spoiler: Pic #1

Spoiler: Pic #2

Spoiler: The Locker Room

 

[Zhukov]

I'm torn too.

I'm torn between facepalming and cackling with glee at the thought of how many people will get pissed off at this story.

As for the story itself... umm... not much to say beyond this being the inevitable result when people who don't fit into a binary black-and-white gender structure interact with a society that regards that structure as absolute.

Oh, and here's a thought: The complainant notes multiple times that "He looked like a man." So if he'd looked convincingly female (not surgery, just like long hair, androgynous features, some makeup and a slender figure) would she have minded so much? Would she even have noticed?

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

I say let them into whatever locker room they want, but warn people when they're applying for a membership that the gym has transgender people and that they use the locker room of the gender they identify as. Also, have a couple of changing stalls in the locker rooms so that people who are shy can use them and not worry about being seen by others. Seems simple enough to me.

 

[tippy2k2]

I say let them into whatever locker room they want, but warn people when they're applying for a membership that the gym has transgender people and that they use the locker room of the gender they identify as. Also, have a couple of changing stalls in the locker rooms so that people who are shy can use them and not worry about being seen by others. Seems simple enough to me.

Huh....well....S, that was easy.

I'm not sure why I didn't think about that when I was arguing with myself but that seems like it would cover all the bases that I was questionable on (even the lady who got kicked out of the gym; her main gripe seemed to be that she wasn't warned that this can happen rather than that a "man" was allowed into the woman's locker room).

Well done sir.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

I say let them into whatever locker room they want, but warn people when they're applying for a membership that the gym has transgender people and that they use the locker room of the gender they identify as. Also, have a couple of changing stalls in the locker rooms so that people who are shy can use them and not worry about being seen by others. Seems simple enough to me.

Huh....well....S, that was easy.

I'm not sure why I didn't think about that when I was arguing with myself but that seems like it would cover all the bases that I was questionable on (even the lady who got kicked out of the gym; her main gripe seemed to be that she wasn't warned that this can happen rather than that a "man" was allowed into the woman's locker room).

Well done sir.

What can I say, I'm a problem solver.

When I run as president of the world after our war with the aliens I hope to have your vote.

 

[Pirate Of PC Master race]

Oh, and here's a thought: The complainant notes multiple times that "He looked like a man." So if he'd looked convincingly female (not surgery, just like long hair, androgynous features, some makeup and a slender figure) would she have minded so much? Would she even have noticed?

Or perhaps more humorously, an actual woman who looks like a man?

 

[lechat]

this is kinda tricky. on one hand. meh. but on the other there is a chance some random guy can just rock up and get some jollies because he is pretending "dude looks like a lady".

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

but on the other there is a chance some random guy can just rock up and get some jollies because he is pretending "dude looks like a lady".

People keep saying that this is a possibility, but does this ever actually happen? Like, has anyone EVER pretended to be transgender in order to sneak into women's bathrooms and locker rooms in real life, or is this something that sitcoms just came up with and people started believing?

I mean, how many self respecting men would go that far to see a naked woman (and a very high chance of it being an unattractive naked woman) when they can just watch porn? I don't know, I just find it baffling that this is even a thing.

 

[lechat]

but on the other there is a chance some random guy can just rock up and get some jollies because he is pretending "dude looks like a lady".

People keep saying that this is a possibility, but does this ever actually happen? Like, has anyone EVER pretended to be transgender in order to sneak into women's bathrooms and locker rooms in real life, or is this something that sitcoms just came up with and people started believing?

I mean, how many self respecting men would go that far to see a naked woman (and a very high chance of it being an unattractive naked woman) when they can just watch porn? I don't know, I just find it baffling that this is even a thing.

I would agree but you know somewhere there is a guy that would do just that and despite some quick googleing this is the closest i could find http://gawker.com/5823498/man-who-pretended-to-be-autistic-to-have-his-diapers-changed-sent-to-jail

 

[Aerith]

I think what we have here is a case of classic distrust in human beings more than it is against that woman being trans. It's a shame it had to happen, though.

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

Spoiler: Story

?I was stunned and shocked. He looked like a man. He did not look like a woman,? says Cormier. Cormier is talking about a person who walked into the woman?s locker room while she was getting undressed. She says she couldn?t believe her eyes.

?This is very unprofessional. This is very scary,? continues Cormier. Cormier says she immediately complained to the front desk and eventually to corporate offices.

?They told me the same thing, that he was allowed in there because that?s the sex he wants to be,? says Cormier.

Cormier says she understands that some men self-identify as women and some women self-identify as men but says this person looked like a man and that caught her off guard.

Cormier lost her membership for violating the company?s ?Judgement Free Zone? policy.

Moving forward, Cormier says she isn?t concerned with getting back her membership. Her concern now is to warn other women at this gym to make them aware of this policy, because she says Planet Fitness failed to warn her.

I'm kind of torn on this bit...

On one hand, the way she describes it that the women must be "warned" that there might a transgender person in their changeroom sounds really insulting.

On the other hand, depending on the individual in question's appearance I can understand if she mistook them for a man and thought they were sneaking in.

Back on the first hand, there's women who look very masculine, should the gym put up warnings when they use the changeroom too?

And on the same hand, she refuses to call the transgendered woman by her proper gender.

Yeah, I'm going to chock this one up to transphobia. I can understand being mistaken and surprised, but when you're complaining to the gym that you should have been warned... that's taking it too far. Plus, I imagine it's way harder being in the transgendered person's position in this situation. You might not be at fault for thinking they're a man, but you're definitely not the one hit hardest in this scenario

On the topic of people pretending to be transgendered to peek into the changeroom, while i wouldn't put it past someone, I'm pretty sure if someone's leering at you, regardless of what gender they are you have every right to complain.

 

[seventy two]

I am of the opinion that it is unreasonable to expect that the majority should be forced to be so accommodating that it causes discomfort. If you are biologically a certain gender(And still appear as such) it is fair to expect you to change with them, or find a better alternative, simply because it is more likely to create less conflict. Similarly a person may hate wearing clothes, but are still expected to wear the in public because their comfort does not outweigh potential discomfort. I am all for people being able to choose how they live, but I don't like forcing others to change their lifestyle to accommodate, especially since concerns about change are met with harsh criticism.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

I say let them into whatever locker room they want, but warn people when they're applying for a membership that the gym has transgender people and that they use the locker room of the gender they identify as. Also, have a couple of changing stalls in the locker rooms so that people who are shy can use them and not worry about being seen by others. Seems simple enough to me.

Seems like a pretty simple solution, right? I've never been to a gym in my life, but every other change room I've been in has stalls (at work, etc) .... toilets have stalls and hangers on the door for this purpose. At least they do here. Not sure if that's a 'across the West' type of thing.

 

[FirstNameLastName]

This thread descends into bickering about the gender vs sex and the validity of transgenderism in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ...

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

I say let them into whatever locker room they want, but warn people when they're applying for a membership that the gym has transgender people and that they use the locker room of the gender they identify as. Also, have a couple of changing stalls in the locker rooms so that people who are shy can use them and not worry about being seen by others. Seems simple enough to me.

Seems like a pretty simple solution, right? I've never been to a gym in my life, but every other change room I've been in has stalls (at work, etc) .... toilets have stalls and hangers on the door for this purpose. At least they do here. Not sure if that's a 'accross the West' type of thing.

There's no privacy stalls at the gym I go to. There's a big room with a bunch of lockers and a couple of benches, and that's where you change and put your stuff away, then there's a connected bathroom that has some bathroom stalls, but all of them are too small to change in (except the handicapped stall), and a shower area. Most people just put a towel around themselves when they're changing, except the old people who just let their balls drag on the floor and don't give any fucks.

Personally it's never bothered me, but I never change at the gym since I ride my bike there and back.

 

[The Bucket]

This thread descends into bickering about the gender vs sex and the validity of transgenderism in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ...

To be fair, isnt that pretty much what the topic is about?

 

[JustAnotherAardvark]

except the old people who just let their balls drag on the floor and don't give any fucks.

I wish my ba...hey hey HEY, there mister! Our balls totally always drag on the floor!
And you need to appreciate this! Because ... reasons!


Also, people need to get over their naughty bits; if we've not seen it before, we'll shoot it (thus saving earth from the alien invasion).

 

[Dimitriov]

I don't know, I'm kind of torn on this one too. I'm all for trans people's rights... but. The whole point of a locker room isn't HOW you feel inside, it's what body you have. That's the whole point.

I fully accept that there are gay guys in a locker room with me, and that's not at all a problem. But I would absolutely not be comfortable with a woman being in there. Why? I honestly don't know, but it's an uncomfortable thought. How does that relate to a trans man (as in F to M)? Well, I honestly think it depends on how passable they are.

I know that some people would answer that that's just my problem, but I'm not sure how this is more my problem than it would be the hypothetical trans person's problem.

I don't have a wholly satisfactory answer, and I certainly don't want to offend anyone, this is just my honest reaction to the issue and my attempt to work through it to an understanding.

Ultimately I feel like the whole point of a change room is about how someone looks and the problem of people looking. It all comes down to the visual and the physical not the mental or emotional. So I feel like the woman has a valid point. And yet I feel like if the trans person looked sufficiently passable it would not be a issue.

Which I realize isn't very fair (I mean, who decides what's "passable?" It's all very judgey) or very practical. However, that's my 2 cents on the matter.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

There's no privacy stalls at the gym I go to. There's a big room with a bunch of lockers and a couple of benches, and that's where you change and put your stuff away, then there's a connected bathroom that has some bathroom stalls, but all of them are too small to change in (except the handicapped stall), and a shower area. Most people just put a towel around themselves when they're changing, except the old people who just let their balls drag on the floor and don't give any fucks.

Personally it's never bothered me, but I never change at the gym since I ride my bike there and back.

I wonder why gyms don't seem to have suitable stalls then? Seems ike you'd do more business if people felt more comfortable. I'm pretty shy by nature. I get self conscious just taking off my motorcycle jacket in public. I would imagine there'd be at least a few people who are both shy and want to get fit. So why not have at least basic privacy settings in gyms? It would cost, maybe, 200 bucks for a few partitions?

 

[JustAnotherAardvark]

I don't know, I'm kind of torn on this one too. I'm all for trans people's rights... but. The whole point of a locker room isn't HOW you feel inside, it's what body you have. That's the whole point.

Eh. I was in the service; 1 year, tops, everyone would be over it.
I didn't vote because option E ... we need to get over this gender bathroom nonsense.
Everybody poops.

It would cost, maybe, 200 bucks for a few partitions?

I weep for the planet, and my lost childhood.
...
...means 'no'.

It "should" cost no more than that, but by the time you go from "this is a good idea" to "nice! we have it" you're getting into the cost of a wrench used in orbit.

What would be really cool is we could just get together and not tell any of the powers that be.
Totally time for a tree fort.