Poll: A sensitive question about transgender and locker rooms

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Just because something applies to you does not mean it applies to everyone.

Similarly, just because "two spirit" is something that applies to some, does not mean it should be applied to all trans people.

How is insisting that trans people must identify as two spirit any better than insisting they identify as their biological sex or whatever people say?

If you bothered to look through my post history, you would see:

With respect, none of that makes you transgender.

No, but my brain scans would, even if I personally never see myself that way. "Two spirit" includes anyone who has both male and female qualities. It includes all LGBT. It is just a definition, there is no negative associated with " two spirit" as there is with " trans" however. " two spirit" comes from the idea that one is both a boy and a girl in some way, there are different degrees and many ways to be so.

The key issue is why do you get to tell other people what they are based on your culture's definition? Just because you see being male/female as not a negative doesn't mean that others find it a boon. It is hypocritical of you to tell other people what to identify as, given you are a native american, and historically those people were often attempted to be forced into roles they saw not fit?

EXACTLY! Why do they get to tell me based on their culture? Our definition is all inclusive, why would I want a definition that says we are broken if gender and sex are not the same? YIKES. It is jot hypocritical to use a word with a definition that is not negative, nor does it have the negative history associated with it as well, since two spirits are treated like celebrities in my culture not like lab rats.

And PLEASE.. " THOSE PEOPLE" lol.. There are thousands of tribes, ALL different religions, cultures, and people. "Native Americans" are not " one people". Hopi people do not even force their children to do things. Everyone must have their own choice how they live.

Two spirits in Hopi culture were celebrities, according to our history, other tribes accounts, and western accounts, Hopi two spirits were treated the most royal of them all, with large entourages and treated with lavish gifts.

 

[Rosiv]

Just because something applies to you does not mean it applies to everyone.

Similarly, just because "two spirit" is something that applies to some, does not mean it should be applied to all trans people.

How is insisting that trans people must identify as two spirit any better than insisting they identify as their biological sex or whatever people say?

If you bothered to look through my post history, you would see:

With respect, none of that makes you transgender.

No, but my brain scans would, even if I personally never see myself that way. "Two spirit" includes anyone who has both male and female qualities. It includes all LGBT. It is just a definition, there is no negative associated with " two spirit" as there is with " trans" however. " two spirit" comes from the idea that one is both a boy and a girl in some way, there are different degrees and many ways to be so.

The key issue is why do you get to tell other people what they are based on your culture's definition? Just because you see being male/female as not a negative doesn't mean that others find it a boon. It is hypocritical of you to tell other people what to identify as, given you are a native american, and historically those people were often attempted to be forced into roles they saw not fit?

EXACTLY! Why do they get to tell me based on their culture? Our definition is all inclusive, why would I want a definition that says we are broken if gender and sex are not the same? YIKES. It is jot hypocritical to use a word with a definition that is not negative, nor does it have the negative history associated with it as well, since two spirits are treated like celebrities in my culture not like lab rats.

No LoL. YOU. Why do you get to tell them? It is either an opinion or a fact. You dont get to have it both ways.

It is jot hypocritical to use a word with a definition that is not negative, nor does it have the negative history associated with it as well, since two spirits are treated like celebrities in my culture not like lab rats.

A word being negative has nothing to do with one being a hypocritical person. Being a hypocritical person means you have a apparent view, but contradict it. And if one contradicts themselves, why should we trust them? If people tell you that they will live with you in peace, and contradict that notion by slaughtering your friends and allies, is that not a hypocritical person?

Dont tell me your culture is "Better" at gender than any others, because that is an opinion, and if that's all you want to espouse, that's fine since this is a internet fourm. But when people tell you contrary, dont act surprised.

Edit: I am sorry if i offended you by calling Native american's as a monoculture. How would you like me to refer to the native people of america ?

 

[Maxtro]

Regardless if a man truly believes he is a woman, it does not give him the right to make all other women in the room uncomfortable with his presence.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Just because something applies to you does not mean it applies to everyone.

Similarly, just because "two spirit" is something that applies to some, does not mean it should be applied to all trans people.

How is insisting that trans people must identify as two spirit any better than insisting they identify as their biological sex or whatever people say?

If you bothered to look through my post history, you would see:

With respect, none of that makes you transgender.

No, but my brain scans would, even if I personally never see myself that way. "Two spirit" includes anyone who has both male and female qualities. It includes all LGBT. It is just a definition, there is no negative associated with " two spirit" as there is with " trans" however. " two spirit" comes from the idea that one is both a boy and a girl in some way, there are different degrees and many ways to be so.

The key issue is why do you get to tell other people what they are based on your culture's definition? Just because you see being male/female as not a negative doesn't mean that others find it a boon. It is hypocritical of you to tell other people what to identify as, given you are a native american, and historically those people were often attempted to be forced into roles they saw not fit?

EXACTLY! Why do they get to tell me based on their culture? Our definition is all inclusive, why would I want a definition that says we are broken if gender and sex are not the same? YIKES. It is jot hypocritical to use a word with a definition that is not negative, nor does it have the negative history associated with it as well, since two spirits are treated like celebrities in my culture not like lab rats.

No LoL. YOU. Why do you get to tell them? It is either an opinion or a fact. You dont get to have it both ways.

It is jot hypocritical to use a word with a definition that is not negative, nor does it have the negative history associated with it as well, since two spirits are treated like celebrities in my culture not like lab rats.

A word being negative has nothing to do with one being a hypocritical person. Being a hypocritical person means you have a apparent view, but contradict it. And if one contradicts themselves, why should we trust them? If people tell you that they will live with you in peace, and contradict that notion by slaughtering your friends and allies, is that not a hypocritical person?

Dont tell me your culture is "Better" at gender than any others, because that is an opinion, and if that's all you want to espouse, that's fine since this is a internet fourm. But when people tell you contrary, dont act surprised.

I get to tell them they are not a lab rat and nothing is wrong with them because that is the truth and it is far past time someone did. A word being negative has EVERYTHING to do with it. If you call someone scum all their life, they are going to call themselves scum. Someone at some point has to stand up and correct it, otherwise they would still be calling us "injuns" and we would allow them to do so out of ignorance.

No one is telling " my culture is better" I am telling you my culture did not persecute two spirits as western society does. There is a difference. " western society" persecutes two spirits, not only did they persecute them, they hunted tortured and killed them and tried to outlaw them and they were forced into hiding. That isn't telling you " My culture is better" it is telling you that western culture has issues that need to be improved, and not all cultures treated people in such ways.

Two spirits need to know that this is not how it has to be. It doesn't 'have" to be like this for them, not all societies have the same issues. It is not them being born two spirit that is the problem, it is the society that is the problem. The society is what needs to be " fixed", not them.

 

[Rosiv]

Just because something applies to you does not mean it applies to everyone.

Similarly, just because "two spirit" is something that applies to some, does not mean it should be applied to all trans people.

How is insisting that trans people must identify as two spirit any better than insisting they identify as their biological sex or whatever people say?

If you bothered to look through my post history, you would see:

With respect, none of that makes you transgender.

No, but my brain scans would, even if I personally never see myself that way. "Two spirit" includes anyone who has both male and female qualities. It includes all LGBT. It is just a definition, there is no negative associated with " two spirit" as there is with " trans" however. " two spirit" comes from the idea that one is both a boy and a girl in some way, there are different degrees and many ways to be so.

The key issue is why do you get to tell other people what they are based on your culture's definition? Just because you see being male/female as not a negative doesn't mean that others find it a boon. It is hypocritical of you to tell other people what to identify as, given you are a native american, and historically those people were often attempted to be forced into roles they saw not fit?

EXACTLY! Why do they get to tell me based on their culture? Our definition is all inclusive, why would I want a definition that says we are broken if gender and sex are not the same? YIKES. It is jot hypocritical to use a word with a definition that is not negative, nor does it have the negative history associated with it as well, since two spirits are treated like celebrities in my culture not like lab rats.

No LoL. YOU. Why do you get to tell them? It is either an opinion or a fact. You dont get to have it both ways.

It is jot hypocritical to use a word with a definition that is not negative, nor does it have the negative history associated with it as well, since two spirits are treated like celebrities in my culture not like lab rats.

A word being negative has nothing to do with one being a hypocritical person. Being a hypocritical person means you have a apparent view, but contradict it. And if one contradicts themselves, why should we trust them? If people tell you that they will live with you in peace, and contradict that notion by slaughtering your friends and allies, is that not a hypocritical person?

Dont tell me your culture is "Better" at gender than any others, because that is an opinion, and if that's all you want to espouse, that's fine since this is a internet fourm. But when people tell you contrary, dont act surprised.

I get to tell them they are not a lab rat and nothing is wrong with them because that is the truth and it is far past time someone did. A word being negative has EVERYTHING to do with it. If you call someone scum all their life, they are going to call themselves scum. Someone at some point has to stand up and correct it, otherwise they would still be calling us "injuns" and we would allow them to do so out of ignorance.

No one is telling " my culture is better" I am telling you my culture did not persecute two spirits as western society does. There is a difference. " western society" persecutes two spirits, not only did they persecute them, they hunted tortured and killed them and tried to outlaw them and they were forced into hiding. That isn't telling you " My culture is better" it is telling you that western culture has issues that need to be improved, and not all cultures treated people in such ways.

Two spirits need to know that this is not how it has to be. It doesn't 'have" to be like this for them, not all societies have the same issues. It is not them being born two spirit that is the problem, it is the society that is the problem. The society is what needs to be " fixed" not them.

No, you dont get it.

A word being negative has EVERYTHING to do with it

It doesnt. A hypocrite is someone who hold contradictory viewpoints. So dont try and tell other people what they are, when you want to be refered to in a certain way yourself. Thats my point, and the only point.

Treating them as "lab rats" is a red hearing you made, and not to mention sensationism to draw away from your stance which takes away people's ability to identify as male OR female, and not both. People can live their lives as THEY want to. Your facts dont support that, and you tried to use vague terminology to hide it. Anything else is just your opinion, which we can be combative as we want with, since this is after-all, an internet fourm.

Also for future reference, is their a preferred term for all the people of "turtle island" pre America that you would prefer? Or am i stuck with my pants down in my misstep?

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Just because something applies to you does not mean it applies to everyone.

Similarly, just because "two spirit" is something that applies to some, does not mean it should be applied to all trans people.

How is insisting that trans people must identify as two spirit any better than insisting they identify as their biological sex or whatever people say?

If you bothered to look through my post history, you would see:

With respect, none of that makes you transgender.

No, but my brain scans would, even if I personally never see myself that way. "Two spirit" includes anyone who has both male and female qualities. It includes all LGBT. It is just a definition, there is no negative associated with " two spirit" as there is with " trans" however. " two spirit" comes from the idea that one is both a boy and a girl in some way, there are different degrees and many ways to be so.

The key issue is why do you get to tell other people what they are based on your culture's definition? Just because you see being male/female as not a negative doesn't mean that others find it a boon. It is hypocritical of you to tell other people what to identify as, given you are a native american, and historically those people were often attempted to be forced into roles they saw not fit?

EXACTLY! Why do they get to tell me based on their culture? Our definition is all inclusive, why would I want a definition that says we are broken if gender and sex are not the same? YIKES. It is jot hypocritical to use a word with a definition that is not negative, nor does it have the negative history associated with it as well, since two spirits are treated like celebrities in my culture not like lab rats.

No LoL. YOU. Why do you get to tell them? It is either an opinion or a fact. You dont get to have it both ways.

It is jot hypocritical to use a word with a definition that is not negative, nor does it have the negative history associated with it as well, since two spirits are treated like celebrities in my culture not like lab rats.

A word being negative has nothing to do with one being a hypocritical person. Being a hypocritical person means you have a apparent view, but contradict it. And if one contradicts themselves, why should we trust them? If people tell you that they will live with you in peace, and contradict that notion by slaughtering your friends and allies, is that not a hypocritical person?

Dont tell me your culture is "Better" at gender than any others, because that is an opinion, and if that's all you want to espouse, that's fine since this is a internet fourm. But when people tell you contrary, dont act surprised.

I get to tell them they are not a lab rat and nothing is wrong with them because that is the truth and it is far past time someone did. A word being negative has EVERYTHING to do with it. If you call someone scum all their life, they are going to call themselves scum. Someone at some point has to stand up and correct it, otherwise they would still be calling us "injuns" and we would allow them to do so out of ignorance.

No one is telling " my culture is better" I am telling you my culture did not persecute two spirits as western society does. There is a difference. " western society" persecutes two spirits, not only did they persecute them, they hunted tortured and killed them and tried to outlaw them and they were forced into hiding. That isn't telling you " My culture is better" it is telling you that western culture has issues that need to be improved, and not all cultures treated people in such ways.

Two spirits need to know that this is not how it has to be. It doesn't 'have" to be like this for them, not all societies have the same issues. It is not them being born two spirit that is the problem, it is the society that is the problem. The society is what needs to be " fixed" not them.

No, you dont get it.

A word being negative has EVERYTHING to do with it

It doesnt. A hypocrite is someone who hold contradictory viewpoints. So dont try and tell other people what they are, when you want to be refered to in a certain way yourself. Thats my point, and the only point.

Treating them as "lab rats" is a red hearing you made, and not to mention sensationism to draw away from your stance which takes away people's ability to identify as male OR female, and not both. People can live their lives as THEY want to. Your facts dont support that, and you tried to use vague terminology to hide it. Anything else is just your opinion, which we can be combative as we want with, since this is after-all, an internet fourm.

Also for future reference, is their a preferred term for all the people of "turtle island" pre America that you would prefer? Or am i stuck with my pants down in my misstep?

No, you don't get it. If a word has a negative meaning, it is up to those who understand that meaning to let those who do not know so they "get the joke" otherwise people will continue to call themselves slurs out of ignorance, believing that is who/ what they are. Just as you tell a child they are " not a retard" simply because someone decided to tell them they were, that doesn't make one a hypocrite, it is just trying to correct a wrong.

Western society treating two spirits like there is something wrong with them IS the problem. There is nothing wrong with them and telling them that isn't hypocritical. one can be male, female or both, the problem is in western society you do not get to be "both" because that means there is something wrong with you. You get to be both in other culture, you are not given that choice in western society however.

There is no blanket term for the many different tribes, since they were so vastly different, it is like trying to lump all the religions and cultures of Europe, Asia, and Africa as " one group". The best advice is to not think one thing applies to all. Depending on which tribe, they generally prefer to be called by their actual tribe name, or if that is unknown sometimes "Native Americans", "First nations" or "First peoples" is less offensive. The most offensive isn't calling someone native american, it is assuming that different tribes were the same people. It is just like saying Britons were generally cannibals because a rare African tribe was, and sounds just as ridiculous.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Nations
http://www.firstpeople.us/

 

[DarkRawen]

snip

Now, because I don't want to start any unnecessary discussions, I just want to ask you about something that actually managed to be off-putting to me (if it's true); are you saying that people who are transgendered/LGBT are "two spirited" ? Or did I just misunderstand that due to the massive amount of texts from both you and those who you argue with? Because if you do, I'd just like to say that I find the idea of that I'm not a "real" man, even if it's currently just in my mind, more off-putting than I find someone pointing out the fact that I am still very much physically female. That's just my input on it, if it is as I assume above.

OT: I'm Trans-man and all of that, and I wouldn't dream of going into the men's locker room before I had the tools for it. Now, I'm not saying that other transgendered/transexual individuals shouldn't go into their preferred locker room without having gone through such procedures, but I don't know a lot of people who would, because it's normally going to end with fuss. People don't tend to assume that someone is transgendered, and they can't really be blamed for that either, considering that there are fairly few of us. Should it change? Yes, of course, private locker rooms would be best. Is it transphobic to be unaware of someone's gender identity? I don't think so, it can be really hard to tell. :/

 

[Rosiv]

Just because something applies to you does not mean it applies to everyone.

Similarly, just because "two spirit" is something that applies to some, does not mean it should be applied to all trans people.

How is insisting that trans people must identify as two spirit any better than insisting they identify as their biological sex or whatever people say?

If you bothered to look through my post history, you would see:

With respect, none of that makes you transgender.

No, but my brain scans would, even if I personally never see myself that way. "Two spirit" includes anyone who has both male and female qualities. It includes all LGBT. It is just a definition, there is no negative associated with " two spirit" as there is with " trans" however. " two spirit" comes from the idea that one is both a boy and a girl in some way, there are different degrees and many ways to be so.

The key issue is why do you get to tell other people what they are based on your culture's definition? Just because you see being male/female as not a negative doesn't mean that others find it a boon. It is hypocritical of you to tell other people what to identify as, given you are a native american, and historically those people were often attempted to be forced into roles they saw not fit?

EXACTLY! Why do they get to tell me based on their culture? Our definition is all inclusive, why would I want a definition that says we are broken if gender and sex are not the same? YIKES. It is jot hypocritical to use a word with a definition that is not negative, nor does it have the negative history associated with it as well, since two spirits are treated like celebrities in my culture not like lab rats.

No LoL. YOU. Why do you get to tell them? It is either an opinion or a fact. You dont get to have it both ways.

It is jot hypocritical to use a word with a definition that is not negative, nor does it have the negative history associated with it as well, since two spirits are treated like celebrities in my culture not like lab rats.

A word being negative has nothing to do with one being a hypocritical person. Being a hypocritical person means you have a apparent view, but contradict it. And if one contradicts themselves, why should we trust them? If people tell you that they will live with you in peace, and contradict that notion by slaughtering your friends and allies, is that not a hypocritical person?

Dont tell me your culture is "Better" at gender than any others, because that is an opinion, and if that's all you want to espouse, that's fine since this is a internet fourm. But when people tell you contrary, dont act surprised.

I get to tell them they are not a lab rat and nothing is wrong with them because that is the truth and it is far past time someone did. A word being negative has EVERYTHING to do with it. If you call someone scum all their life, they are going to call themselves scum. Someone at some point has to stand up and correct it, otherwise they would still be calling us "injuns" and we would allow them to do so out of ignorance.

No one is telling " my culture is better" I am telling you my culture did not persecute two spirits as western society does. There is a difference. " western society" persecutes two spirits, not only did they persecute them, they hunted tortured and killed them and tried to outlaw them and they were forced into hiding. That isn't telling you " My culture is better" it is telling you that western culture has issues that need to be improved, and not all cultures treated people in such ways.

Two spirits need to know that this is not how it has to be. It doesn't 'have" to be like this for them, not all societies have the same issues. It is not them being born two spirit that is the problem, it is the society that is the problem. The society is what needs to be " fixed" not them.

No, you dont get it.

A word being negative has EVERYTHING to do with it

It doesnt. A hypocrite is someone who hold contradictory viewpoints. So dont try and tell other people what they are, when you want to be refered to in a certain way yourself. Thats my point, and the only point.

Treating them as "lab rats" is a red hearing you made, and not to mention sensationism to draw away from your stance which takes away people's ability to identify as male OR female, and not both. People can live their lives as THEY want to. Your facts dont support that, and you tried to use vague terminology to hide it. Anything else is just your opinion, which we can be combative as we want with, since this is after-all, an internet fourm.

Also for future reference, is their a preferred term for all the people of "turtle island" pre America that you would prefer? Or am i stuck with my pants down in my misstep?

No, you don't get it. If a word has a negative meaning, it is up to those who understand that meaning to let those who do not know so they "get the joke" otherwise people will continue to call themselves slurs out of ignorance, believing that is who/ what they are. Just as you tell a child they are " not a retard" simply because someone decided to tell them they were, that doesn't make one a hypocrite, it is just trying to correct a wrong.

Western society treating two spirits like there is something wrong with them IS the problem. There is nothing wrong with them and telling them that isn't hypocritical. one can be male, female or both, the problem is in western society you do not get to be "both" because that means there is something wrong with you. You get to be both in other culture, you are not given that choice in western society however.

There is no blanket term for the many different tribes, since they were so vastly different, it is like trying to lump all the religions and cultures of Europe, Asia, and Africa as " one group". The best advice is to not think one thing applies to all. Depending on which tribe, they generally prefer to be called by their actual tribe name, or if that is unknown sometimes "Native Americans", "First nations" or "First peoples" is less offensive. The most offensive isn't calling someone native american, it is assuming that different tribes were the same people. It is just like saying Britons were generally cannibals because a rare African tribe was, and sounds just as ridiculous.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Nations
http://www.firstpeople.us/

LoL we can do this all day, and i can assure you i have a bunch of time.

I argued that a hypocrite is one who states thing contradictory to what they do, you fit the bill with that well established definition in your actions of telling other people who want to identify as male or female, that they should be male/female instead.

A wrong or right as you refer it is:

it is just trying to correct a wrong.

is again, just your opinion, and a red hearing to your hypocritical actions. Any facts on gender with trans people are not well established. So this claim of them being wrong is absurd, and also as stated before then just your opinion.

So yes, when you tell people what to identify as, when you dont like people to tell you what you identify as, that makes you a hypocrite, there is no wiggle room really for that, and there is nothing wrong with being a hypocrite, but dont expect anyone to take you seriously when you act as one.

one can be male, female or both, the problem is in western society you do not get to be "both" because that means there is something wrong with you. You get to be both in other culture, you are not given that choice in western society however.

Uninformed on genderqueer people? They exist, and identify as neither male or female, or both male and female, and that is the western approach to what you state. Nevertheless you still dont get to tell people to identify as two spirited or genderqueer and not be a hypocrite in doing so, given your previous and current stances on the issues of identity. They get to choose, not you.


As an aside and to reference to your last paragraph, since i know you dont like quote fileld replies, i wont include it, I know they are not "one group". It just helps for referencing, since historicaly they were treated as such and listing all the hundreds of tribes names that were forced to identify in ways they did not feel fit would take a long time for me, and be wordy.

As another aside,I also feel your Briton/African example is a bit off. Briton was a western power, African tribes were African tribes. The way they lived their lives, their cultures were vastly different, and people tend to "lump" things together that are similar. I feel a more appropriate comparison would be the "cannibal African tribe" to the "not cannibal African tribe" since both still involve the lack of infrastructure and western tech that really characterizes Briton from African tribes. But yea i can see that point, but only that one.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Just because something applies to you does not mean it applies to everyone.

Similarly, just because "two spirit" is something that applies to some, does not mean it should be applied to all trans people.

How is insisting that trans people must identify as two spirit any better than insisting they identify as their biological sex or whatever people say?

If you bothered to look through my post history, you would see:

With respect, none of that makes you transgender.

No, but my brain scans would, even if I personally never see myself that way. "Two spirit" includes anyone who has both male and female qualities. It includes all LGBT. It is just a definition, there is no negative associated with " two spirit" as there is with " trans" however. " two spirit" comes from the idea that one is both a boy and a girl in some way, there are different degrees and many ways to be so.

The key issue is why do you get to tell other people what they are based on your culture's definition? Just because you see being male/female as not a negative doesn't mean that others find it a boon. It is hypocritical of you to tell other people what to identify as, given you are a native american, and historically those people were often attempted to be forced into roles they saw not fit?

EXACTLY! Why do they get to tell me based on their culture? Our definition is all inclusive, why would I want a definition that says we are broken if gender and sex are not the same? YIKES. It is jot hypocritical to use a word with a definition that is not negative, nor does it have the negative history associated with it as well, since two spirits are treated like celebrities in my culture not like lab rats.

No LoL. YOU. Why do you get to tell them? It is either an opinion or a fact. You dont get to have it both ways.

It is jot hypocritical to use a word with a definition that is not negative, nor does it have the negative history associated with it as well, since two spirits are treated like celebrities in my culture not like lab rats.

A word being negative has nothing to do with one being a hypocritical person. Being a hypocritical person means you have a apparent view, but contradict it. And if one contradicts themselves, why should we trust them? If people tell you that they will live with you in peace, and contradict that notion by slaughtering your friends and allies, is that not a hypocritical person?

Dont tell me your culture is "Better" at gender than any others, because that is an opinion, and if that's all you want to espouse, that's fine since this is a internet fourm. But when people tell you contrary, dont act surprised.

I get to tell them they are not a lab rat and nothing is wrong with them because that is the truth and it is far past time someone did. A word being negative has EVERYTHING to do with it. If you call someone scum all their life, they are going to call themselves scum. Someone at some point has to stand up and correct it, otherwise they would still be calling us "injuns" and we would allow them to do so out of ignorance.

No one is telling " my culture is better" I am telling you my culture did not persecute two spirits as western society does. There is a difference. " western society" persecutes two spirits, not only did they persecute them, they hunted tortured and killed them and tried to outlaw them and they were forced into hiding. That isn't telling you " My culture is better" it is telling you that western culture has issues that need to be improved, and not all cultures treated people in such ways.

Two spirits need to know that this is not how it has to be. It doesn't 'have" to be like this for them, not all societies have the same issues. It is not them being born two spirit that is the problem, it is the society that is the problem. The society is what needs to be " fixed" not them.

No, you dont get it.

A word being negative has EVERYTHING to do with it

It doesnt. A hypocrite is someone who hold contradictory viewpoints. So dont try and tell other people what they are, when you want to be refered to in a certain way yourself. Thats my point, and the only point.

Treating them as "lab rats" is a red hearing you made, and not to mention sensationism to draw away from your stance which takes away people's ability to identify as male OR female, and not both. People can live their lives as THEY want to. Your facts dont support that, and you tried to use vague terminology to hide it. Anything else is just your opinion, which we can be combative as we want with, since this is after-all, an internet fourm.

Also for future reference, is their a preferred term for all the people of "turtle island" pre America that you would prefer? Or am i stuck with my pants down in my misstep?

No, you don't get it. If a word has a negative meaning, it is up to those who understand that meaning to let those who do not know so they "get the joke" otherwise people will continue to call themselves slurs out of ignorance, believing that is who/ what they are. Just as you tell a child they are " not a retard" simply because someone decided to tell them they were, that doesn't make one a hypocrite, it is just trying to correct a wrong.

Western society treating two spirits like there is something wrong with them IS the problem. There is nothing wrong with them and telling them that isn't hypocritical. one can be male, female or both, the problem is in western society you do not get to be "both" because that means there is something wrong with you. You get to be both in other culture, you are not given that choice in western society however.

There is no blanket term for the many different tribes, since they were so vastly different, it is like trying to lump all the religions and cultures of Europe, Asia, and Africa as " one group". The best advice is to not think one thing applies to all. Depending on which tribe, they generally prefer to be called by their actual tribe name, or if that is unknown sometimes "Native Americans", "First nations" or "First peoples" is less offensive. The most offensive isn't calling someone native american, it is assuming that different tribes were the same people. It is just like saying Britons were generally cannibals because a rare African tribe was, and sounds just as ridiculous.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Nations
http://www.firstpeople.us/

LoL we can do this all day, and i can assure you i have a bunch of time.

I argued that a hypocrite is one who states thing contradictory to what they do, you fit the bill with that well established definition in your actions of telling other people who want to identify as male or female, that they should be male/female instead.

A wrong or right as you refer it is:

it is just trying to correct a wrong.

is again, just your opinion, and a red hearing to your hypocritical actions. Any facts on gender with trans people are not well established. So this claim of them being wrong is absurd, and also as stated before then just your opinion.

So yes, when you tell people what to identify as, when you dont like people to tell you what you identify as, that makes you a hypocrite, there is no wiggle room really for that, and there is nothing wrong with being a hypocrite, but dont expect anyone to take you seriously when you act as one.

one can be male, female or both, the problem is in western society you do not get to be "both" because that means there is something wrong with you. You get to be both in other culture, you are not given that choice in western society however.

Uninformed on genderqueer people? They exist, and identify as neither male or female, or both male and female, and that is the western approach to what you state. Nevertheless you still dont get to tell people to identify as two spirited or genderqueer and not be a hypocrite in doing so, given your previous and current stances on the issues of identity. They get to choose, not you.


As an aside and to reference to your last paragraph, since i know you dont like quote fileld replies, i wont include it, I know they are not "one group". It just helps for referencing, since historicaly they were treated as such and listing all the hundreds of tribes names that were forced to identify in ways they did not feel fit would take a long time for me, and be wordy.

As another aside,I also feel your Briton/African example is a bit off. Briton was a western power, African tribes were African tribes. The way they lived their lives, their cultures were vastly different, and people tend to "lump" things together that are similar. I feel a more appropriate comparison would be the "cannibal African tribe" to the "not cannibal African tribe" since both still involve the lack of infrastructure and western tech that really characterizes Briton from African tribes. But yea i can see that point, but only that one.

What do you mean the facts on trans people are not well established? They have been well established for a very long time, it is just western society is behind behind in recognizing that and keeps trying to fix what isn't broken to begin with. You are incorrect in the assessment that western society allows them to be both. If they were given options to be both society would not be pressuring them to choose. It has not yet come that far. They are not given facilities for both, there are not many options for them in sex segregated areas for both society in general has not yet accepted them as both.

Historically Native Americans were only treated as one group by those that were exterminating them, not by the tribes themselves.
No, my briton/ african example is exactly spot on, because that is exactly what western society has been doing to the many tribes for a very long time now, and have yet to cease doing this. It is 1047 miles from Africa to England. It is 2461 miles from New York to California. Think about the differences between the cultures that exist from Africa to England, now more than double that and you have the cultures of " Turtle Island". The problem is Europeans didn't realize this, still often do not realize this. Just as Britons lived in apartments and Africans lived in huts.. Hopi lived in Apartments and the Blackfoot lived in tipis. Yes, no matter how much Europeans wanted to assume " all brown people are the same" , the people here were just as different as Africans to Britons, it was their own racism that failed to allow them to see this. The tribes were vastly different, seeing them as " the same" was out of ignorance, not because they actually were.

Spoiler: The English were not the only ones living in apartments.

England:

Hopi:

That is a modern apartment in England, and the Hopi apartments have been that way for thousands of years. "Tech" is not the only measure of society, or their differences. Hopi refusing to use anything they see that harms the earth makes them more environmentally conscience, not that they are "barbarians" or something. It is kind of like Japanese thinking westerners were unsophisticated hairy barbarians, actually many of them still do.. that doesn't make it true.

 

[Rosiv]

Just because something applies to you does not mean it applies to everyone.

Similarly, just because "two spirit" is something that applies to some, does not mean it should be applied to all trans people.

How is insisting that trans people must identify as two spirit any better than insisting they identify as their biological sex or whatever people say?

If you bothered to look through my post history, you would see:

With respect, none of that makes you transgender.

No, but my brain scans would, even if I personally never see myself that way. "Two spirit" includes anyone who has both male and female qualities. It includes all LGBT. It is just a definition, there is no negative associated with " two spirit" as there is with " trans" however. " two spirit" comes from the idea that one is both a boy and a girl in some way, there are different degrees and many ways to be so.

The key issue is why do you get to tell other people what they are based on your culture's definition? Just because you see being male/female as not a negative doesn't mean that others find it a boon. It is hypocritical of you to tell other people what to identify as, given you are a native american, and historically those people were often attempted to be forced into roles they saw not fit?

EXACTLY! Why do they get to tell me based on their culture? Our definition is all inclusive, why would I want a definition that says we are broken if gender and sex are not the same? YIKES. It is jot hypocritical to use a word with a definition that is not negative, nor does it have the negative history associated with it as well, since two spirits are treated like celebrities in my culture not like lab rats.

No LoL. YOU. Why do you get to tell them? It is either an opinion or a fact. You dont get to have it both ways.

It is jot hypocritical to use a word with a definition that is not negative, nor does it have the negative history associated with it as well, since two spirits are treated like celebrities in my culture not like lab rats.

A word being negative has nothing to do with one being a hypocritical person. Being a hypocritical person means you have a apparent view, but contradict it. And if one contradicts themselves, why should we trust them? If people tell you that they will live with you in peace, and contradict that notion by slaughtering your friends and allies, is that not a hypocritical person?

Dont tell me your culture is "Better" at gender than any others, because that is an opinion, and if that's all you want to espouse, that's fine since this is a internet fourm. But when people tell you contrary, dont act surprised.

I get to tell them they are not a lab rat and nothing is wrong with them because that is the truth and it is far past time someone did. A word being negative has EVERYTHING to do with it. If you call someone scum all their life, they are going to call themselves scum. Someone at some point has to stand up and correct it, otherwise they would still be calling us "injuns" and we would allow them to do so out of ignorance.

No one is telling " my culture is better" I am telling you my culture did not persecute two spirits as western society does. There is a difference. " western society" persecutes two spirits, not only did they persecute them, they hunted tortured and killed them and tried to outlaw them and they were forced into hiding. That isn't telling you " My culture is better" it is telling you that western culture has issues that need to be improved, and not all cultures treated people in such ways.

Two spirits need to know that this is not how it has to be. It doesn't 'have" to be like this for them, not all societies have the same issues. It is not them being born two spirit that is the problem, it is the society that is the problem. The society is what needs to be " fixed" not them.

No, you dont get it.

A word being negative has EVERYTHING to do with it

It doesnt. A hypocrite is someone who hold contradictory viewpoints. So dont try and tell other people what they are, when you want to be refered to in a certain way yourself. Thats my point, and the only point.

Treating them as "lab rats" is a red hearing you made, and not to mention sensationism to draw away from your stance which takes away people's ability to identify as male OR female, and not both. People can live their lives as THEY want to. Your facts dont support that, and you tried to use vague terminology to hide it. Anything else is just your opinion, which we can be combative as we want with, since this is after-all, an internet fourm.

Also for future reference, is their a preferred term for all the people of "turtle island" pre America that you would prefer? Or am i stuck with my pants down in my misstep?

No, you don't get it. If a word has a negative meaning, it is up to those who understand that meaning to let those who do not know so they "get the joke" otherwise people will continue to call themselves slurs out of ignorance, believing that is who/ what they are. Just as you tell a child they are " not a retard" simply because someone decided to tell them they were, that doesn't make one a hypocrite, it is just trying to correct a wrong.

Western society treating two spirits like there is something wrong with them IS the problem. There is nothing wrong with them and telling them that isn't hypocritical. one can be male, female or both, the problem is in western society you do not get to be "both" because that means there is something wrong with you. You get to be both in other culture, you are not given that choice in western society however.

There is no blanket term for the many different tribes, since they were so vastly different, it is like trying to lump all the religions and cultures of Europe, Asia, and Africa as " one group". The best advice is to not think one thing applies to all. Depending on which tribe, they generally prefer to be called by their actual tribe name, or if that is unknown sometimes "Native Americans", "First nations" or "First peoples" is less offensive. The most offensive isn't calling someone native american, it is assuming that different tribes were the same people. It is just like saying Britons were generally cannibals because a rare African tribe was, and sounds just as ridiculous.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Nations
http://www.firstpeople.us/

LoL we can do this all day, and i can assure you i have a bunch of time.

I argued that a hypocrite is one who states thing contradictory to what they do, you fit the bill with that well established definition in your actions of telling other people who want to identify as male or female, that they should be male/female instead.

A wrong or right as you refer it is:

it is just trying to correct a wrong.

is again, just your opinion, and a red hearing to your hypocritical actions. Any facts on gender with trans people are not well established. So this claim of them being wrong is absurd, and also as stated before then just your opinion.

So yes, when you tell people what to identify as, when you dont like people to tell you what you identify as, that makes you a hypocrite, there is no wiggle room really for that, and there is nothing wrong with being a hypocrite, but dont expect anyone to take you seriously when you act as one.

one can be male, female or both, the problem is in western society you do not get to be "both" because that means there is something wrong with you. You get to be both in other culture, you are not given that choice in western society however.

Uninformed on genderqueer people? They exist, and identify as neither male or female, or both male and female, and that is the western approach to what you state. Nevertheless you still dont get to tell people to identify as two spirited or genderqueer and not be a hypocrite in doing so, given your previous and current stances on the issues of identity. They get to choose, not you.


As an aside and to reference to your last paragraph, since i know you dont like quote fileld replies, i wont include it, I know they are not "one group". It just helps for referencing, since historicaly they were treated as such and listing all the hundreds of tribes names that were forced to identify in ways they did not feel fit would take a long time for me, and be wordy.

As another aside,I also feel your Briton/African example is a bit off. Briton was a western power, African tribes were African tribes. The way they lived their lives, their cultures were vastly different, and people tend to "lump" things together that are similar. I feel a more appropriate comparison would be the "cannibal African tribe" to the "not cannibal African tribe" since both still involve the lack of infrastructure and western tech that really characterizes Briton from African tribes. But yea i can see that point, but only that one.

What do you mean the facts on trans people are not well established? They have been well established for a very long time, it is just western society is behind behind in recognizing that and keeps trying to fix what isn't broken to begin with. You are incorrect in the assessment that western society allows them to be both. If they were given options to be both society would not be pressuring them to choose. It has not yet come that far. They are not given facilities for both, there are not many options for them in sex segregated areas for both society in general has not yet accepted them as both.

Historically Native Americans were only treated as one group by those that were exterminating them, not by the tribes themselves.
No, my briton/ african example is exactly spot on, because that is exactly what western society has been doing to the many tribes for a very long time now, and have yet to cease doing this. It is 1047 miles from Africa to England. It is 2461 miles from New York to California. Think about the differences between the cultures that exist from Africa to England, now more than double that and you have the cultures of " Turtle Island". The problem is Europeans didn't realize this, still often do not realize this. Just as Britons lived in apartments and Africans lived in huts.. Hopi lived in Apartments and the Blackfoot lived in tipis. Yes, no matter how much Europeans wanted to assume " all brown people are the same" , the people here were just as different as Africans to Britons, it was their own racism that failed to allow them to see this. The tribes were vastly different, seeing them as " the same" was out of ignorance, not because they actually were.
England:

Hopi:

That is a modern apartment in England, and the Hopi apartments have been that way for thousands of years.

Is creationism a fact then? Or Jesus? Ones culture or religion is not fact. Show the well placed evidence if it exists, which it doesn't. You were the one who corrected me on this point Lil Devils a ways ago, so again this leads to you another hypocrisy, or maybe just a poor memory.

If they were given options to be both society would not be pressuring them to choose. It has not yet come that far. They are not given facilities for both, there are not many options for them in sex segregated areas for both society in general has not yet accepted them as both.

This is wrong, factually. They are given options, you just didnt know about them, and assumed other wize. Plently of people choose to be gender-queer and plenty choose to be women or men. The key is that its their choice.

For the aside: Is skin tone different between the tribes? I always assumed the reason they were lumped together was their same brownish skin tone. I mean your white so i know that one does not have to be white to be a first nation person, but still, skin color attributes to how one could of been marginalized, that was more of my point. Sorry for being vague.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Just because something applies to you does not mean it applies to everyone.

snip

Is creationism a fact then? Or Jesus? Ones culture or religion is not fact. Show the well placed evidence if it exists, which it doesn't. You were the one who corrected me on this point Lil Devils a ways ago, so again this leads to you another hypocrisy, or maybe just a poor memory.

If they were given options to be both society would not be pressuring them to choose. It has not yet come that far. They are not given facilities for both, there are not many options for them in sex segregated areas for both society in general has not yet accepted them as both.

This is wrong, factually. They are given options, you just didnt know about them, and assumed other wize. Plently of people choose to be gender-queer and plenty choose to be women or men. The key is that its their choice.

For the aside: Is skin tone different between the tribes? I always assumed the reason they were lumped together was their same brownish skin tone. I mean your white so i know that one does not have to be white to be a first nation person, but still, skin color attributes to how one could of been marginalized, that was more of my point. Sorry for being vague.

Comparing two spirits to creationism is comparing apples to orangutans. It has been known for thousands of years that gender does not have to match sex, and has now been confirmed in brain scans as well. This isn't some ' new discovery" we know nothing about, humanity has been living as and with this for a very long time now, and much has already been established by the many cultures of the world as well as science. Now you are just being silly for the sake of being silly.

They are NOT given options in the majority of western society, and that is an issue. Some have started to give them options, but it is far from being accepted everywhere as of yet. facilities are not provided everywhere yet, "Queer" is ALSO a derogatory term and have been used to abuse Two spirits as well, so it can also be considered a very negative and hurtful word, of course people in western society would not choose to be called "gender queer" because of the stigmas that go along with it."Queer" is still trying to say something is wrong with them. UGH, why must all words in the west used to describe two spirits be negative? It would be nice if for once they had a word without the negative " you are broken and not right" attached to it.

Yes, skin tone is different among the tribes, and the tribes actually came to the Americas at different times over thousands of years, so genetically they are frequently very different.

 

[Sarge034]

No, because forcing trans women into men's areas is known not to be safe.

First off, I'm liking how you're cherry picking parts of my quotes. Stay classy.

That's my point thought. If cis women don't feel comfortable with a MALE body (regardless of mental gender) in their changing room then they don't feel safe. If cis men don't feel comfortable with a male body that has a FEMALE mind in their changing room then they don't feel safe. If trans people feel like they're not welcome anywhere then they don't feel safe. I'm saying these are things we really need to try to discuss as a society and come to an understanding but everyone wants to draw battle lines!

Bend over backwards, by treating trans women the way you'd treat other women? Treating women like women isn't particularly hard.

The irony here is palpable. You do realize I'm more about equality than you are, right? I don't treat "women like women" or men like men, I treat people like people until they give me a reason not to. In your quest to shame me about what you perceive to be my unequal standards you went straight to using sexism and gender rolls... LOL, KEK, and other assorted humored laughs.

Anyway, the fact that you're a woman or a man in mind doesn't change the genitalia on your body. In a place where you get naked, but more importantly see others naked, that matters. But like I was trying to say, as of now there is no "right" answer. We can let them in the changing room they identify with, the one they physically are, or not let then in any. All options suck, why not try to think of a better one? I think the best long term solution is to go the unisex route and have individual stalls for changing and require clothing on at all times otherwise.

 

[Silvanus]

"Queer" is ALSO a derogatory term and have been used to abuse Two spirits as well, so it can also be considered a very negative and hurtful word, of course people in western society would not choose to be called "gender queer" because of the stigmas that go along with it."Queer" is still trying to say something is wrong with them. UGH, why must all words in the west used to describe two spirits be negative? It would be nice if for once they had a word without the negative " you are broken and not right" attached to it.

You're partially right, but the word "queer" has also been partially re-appropriated. Some people use it as a self-descriptor.

 

[Rosiv]

Just because something applies to you does not mean it applies to everyone.

snip

Is creationism a fact then? Or Jesus? Ones culture or religion is not fact. Show the well placed evidence if it exists, which it doesn't. You were the one who corrected me on this point Lil Devils a ways ago, so again this leads to you another hypocrisy, or maybe just a poor memory.

If they were given options to be both society would not be pressuring them to choose. It has not yet come that far. They are not given facilities for both, there are not many options for them in sex segregated areas for both society in general has not yet accepted them as both.

This is wrong, factually. They are given options, you just didnt know about them, and assumed other wize. Plently of people choose to be gender-queer and plenty choose to be women or men. The key is that its their choice.

For the aside: Is skin tone different between the tribes? I always assumed the reason they were lumped together was their same brownish skin tone. I mean your white so i know that one does not have to be white to be a first nation person, but still, skin color attributes to how one could of been marginalized, that was more of my point. Sorry for being vague.

Comparing two spirits to creationism is comparing apples to orangutans. It has been known for thousands of years that gender does not have to match sex, and has now been confirmed in brain scans as well. This isn't some ' new discovery" we know nothing about, humanity has been living as and with this for a very long time now, and much has already been established by the many cultures of the world as well as science. Now you are just being silly for the sake of being silly.

They are NOT given options in the majority of western society, and that is an issue. Some have started to give them options, but it is far from being accepted everywhere as of yet. facilities are not provided everywhere yet, "Queer" is ALSO a derogatory term and have been used to abuse Two spirits as well, so it can also be considered a very negative and hurtful word, of course people in western society would not choose to be called "gender queer" because of the stigmas that go along with it."Queer" is still trying to say something is wrong with them. UGH, why must all words in the west used to describe two spirits be negative? It would be nice if for once they had a word without the negative " you are broken and not right" attached to it.

Yes, skin tone is different among the tribes, and the tribes actually came to the Americas at different times over thousands of years, so genetically they are frequently very different.

I can compare whatever i want, that is why its called a comparison. The only point that needs to be the same is the point i am comparing. The comparison as i stated before is that you have a set of beliefs which are not based on fact. Two spirited people are not based on science, they are cultural, as is every facet of gender as far as sociology is concerned. To argue gender is biological is something that i personally wish was true, but know the brain scan studies do not fully support, since they only show differences in brain structure, not the origins of such. That is the nature of nature vs nurture issues though.

And yea "Queer" being a derogatory term is more contextual than anything. Sorry if that offends you, but the western term and movement people identify with is "genderqueer". Negative words dont have to always stay negative you know? Case and point the N-word and african americans?

It is funny how you still dont get it. You refer to people as two spirited as if you had that right. Do you understand my point? You dont get to tell people how to live their lives. If they want to be women even though they were born men, then they get to be women. They dont have to KowTow to your "two spirited" viewpoint simply because you "think" it is better. It is like me calling all Hopi people "brown dudes" simply because they might of at one point had brown skin and i feel that it was appropriate for my "Western" culture. One culture doesn't trump another.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

"Queer" is ALSO a derogatory term and have been used to abuse Two spirits as well, so it can also be considered a very negative and hurtful word, of course people in western society would not choose to be called "gender queer" because of the stigmas that go along with it."Queer" is still trying to say something is wrong with them. UGH, why must all words in the west used to describe two spirits be negative? It would be nice if for once they had a word without the negative " you are broken and not right" attached to it.

You're partially right, but the word "queer" has also been partially re-appropriated. Some people use it as a self-descriptor.

Yes, but the issue is all of the words in the west that are used to describe them have the underlying theme that "something is not right" negative. That is the problem with starting from this angle, the way this is viewed as something being broken that needs fixed from the beginning, is weighted and biased against them from the go. How can they ever view themselves as " normal" and live a normal life when even the very words to describe them are weighted against them?

 

[Silvanus]

Yes, but the issue is all of the words in the west that are used to describe them have the underlying theme that "something is not right" negative. That is the problem with starting from this angle, the way this is viewed as something being broken that needs fixed from the beginning, is weighted and biased against them from the go. How can they ever view themselves as " normal" and live a normal life when even the very words to describe them are weighted against them?

I wouldn't say the term "trans" implies a negative. It's more directly descriptive; etymologically it means "across".

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Just because something applies to you does not mean it applies to everyone.

snip

Is creationism a fact then? Or Jesus? Ones culture or religion is not fact. Show the well placed evidence if it exists, which it doesn't. You were the one who corrected me on this point Lil Devils a ways ago, so again this leads to you another hypocrisy, or maybe just a poor memory.

If they were given options to be both society would not be pressuring them to choose. It has not yet come that far. They are not given facilities for both, there are not many options for them in sex segregated areas for both society in general has not yet accepted them as both.

This is wrong, factually. They are given options, you just didnt know about them, and assumed other wize. Plently of people choose to be gender-queer and plenty choose to be women or men. The key is that its their choice.

For the aside: Is skin tone different between the tribes? I always assumed the reason they were lumped together was their same brownish skin tone. I mean your white so i know that one does not have to be white to be a first nation person, but still, skin color attributes to how one could of been marginalized, that was more of my point. Sorry for being vague.

Comparing two spirits to creationism is comparing apples to orangutans. It has been known for thousands of years that gender does not have to match sex, and has now been confirmed in brain scans as well. This isn't some ' new discovery" we know nothing about, humanity has been living as and with this for a very long time now, and much has already been established by the many cultures of the world as well as science. Now you are just being silly for the sake of being silly.

They are NOT given options in the majority of western society, and that is an issue. Some have started to give them options, but it is far from being accepted everywhere as of yet. facilities are not provided everywhere yet, "Queer" is ALSO a derogatory term and have been used to abuse Two spirits as well, so it can also be considered a very negative and hurtful word, of course people in western society would not choose to be called "gender queer" because of the stigmas that go along with it."Queer" is still trying to say something is wrong with them. UGH, why must all words in the west used to describe two spirits be negative? It would be nice if for once they had a word without the negative " you are broken and not right" attached to it.

Yes, skin tone is different among the tribes, and the tribes actually came to the Americas at different times over thousands of years, so genetically they are frequently very different.

I can compare whatever i want, that is why its called a comparison. The only point that needs to be the same is the point i am comparing. The comparison as i stated before is that you have a set of beliefs which are not based on fact. Two spirited people are not based on science, they are cultural, as is every facet of gender as far as sociology is concerned. To argue gender is biological is something that i personally wish was true, but know the brain scan studies do not fully support, since they only show differences in brain structure, not the origins of such. That is the nature of nature vs nurture issues though.

And yea "Queer" being a derogatory term is more contextual than anything. Sorry if that offends you, but the western term and movement people identify with is "genderqueer". Negative words dont have to always stay negative you know? Case and point the N-word and african americans?

It is funny how you still dont get it. You refer to people as two spirited as if you had that right. Do you understand my point? You dont get to tell people how to live their lives. If they want to be women even though they were born men, then they get to be women. They dont have to KowTow to your "two spirited" viewpoint simply because you "think" it is better. It is like me calling all Hopi people "brown dudes" simply because they might of at one point had brown skin and i feel that it was appropriate for my "Western" culture. One culture doesn't trump another.

I have just as much right to refer to them as two spirit as you do to refer to them as homo sapiens. It is a non derogatory word with a definition that applies. It is no more wrong to refer to someone who has both masculine and feminine as two spirited as it is to refer to water as being wet. Yes, I DO have that right, and no I am not going to stop using my right simply because you think you have the right to take that right from me. You are still two spirit if you are born a woman and have cosmetic surgery to be a man, surgery does not change that.

If one culture does not " trump another" quit calling two spirits transgenders because transgenders is a negative word by definition and offensive. Here you are trying to force your culture on me while telling me to stop using my own cultures terms to describe having characteristic of both the masculine and the feminine.

 

[neverwintergirl]

Do you think it's more likely that a transgendered person (with a male body) is likely to be assaulted if they use the locker room and don't say anything? Wouldn't most of the men in the room just assume it's another guy changing and do their own thing? God knows when I change at the gym I don't want anything to do with the naked people around me.

An interesting reversal of the situation: What about the (admittedly much rarer) trans men? Would you force an 80 pound five feet trans-man looking like a girl into a mans restroom?

Tricky situation all around.

I'm sorry I admit I found this thread by googling some other stuff about this whole locker fiasco but I have to admit I found this kind of funny... yet at the same time kind of sad in the lack of understanding of what trans is and felt I had to correct it.

Trust me, trans people have all kinds of discussions amongst ourselves when to switch locker rooms / bathrooms. But this is just not understanding. A pre transition trans person, ie in the case of a trans woman someone who has not taken hormones and probably even has short hair (I always had hair down to my ass but that's an oddity) and maybe facial hair wearing men's clothes is not going to stroll into the women's locker room - "sup ladies, I'm trans, it's cool!" they're going to go into the women's room when their hair is grown out, they've been on hormones for a good bit of time, they're wearing female clothes and they may have had various surgeries. Not just on the genitals but there is facial surgery (that tries to feminize.. don't think Joan Rivers, think reconstructive surgery to make you look like your sister, real or hypothetical) as well as breast implants and other things.

Once a trans woman looks like a woman (or does her best to attempt to) is when she is going to use the women's locker room / bathroom. Not before. Often we end up getting yelled at, stared at, or harassed using the men's room numerous times before we use the women's room.

Now take all that and masculinize the steps instead of feminizing them and that's what trans men do as well.

As for using the rest room based on whether you are pre or post op, some of us trans people really are... this is a stupid way to phrase it, but rather convincing. I haven't been called he or boy or man or male or dude or bro in a decade. Not even by little kids who usually just say what's on their mind.

Do you really want someone who looks 100% female except has a penis between her legs using the men's room or vice versa for a trans man with a vagina?

I apologize if someone else has made this correction already.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Yes, but the issue is all of the words in the west that are used to describe them have the underlying theme that "something is not right" negative. That is the problem with starting from this angle, the way this is viewed as something being broken that needs fixed from the beginning, is weighted and biased against them from the go. How can they ever view themselves as " normal" and live a normal life when even the very words to describe them are weighted against them?

I wouldn't say the term "trans" implies a negative. It's more directly descriptive; etymologically it means "across".

According to the definitions in the dictionaries, it is negative. Referring it to being a " misalignment" is negative, that it is something that is not right and needs to be fixed.

"a prefix meaning ?on the other side of,? referring to the misalignment of one?s gender identity with one's biological sex assigned at birth"

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/trans-


When your car's wheels are misaligned you go get it aligned.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Just because something applies to you does not mean it applies to everyone.

snip

Is creationism a fact then? Or Jesus? Ones culture or religion is not fact. Show the well placed evidence if it exists, which it doesn't. You were the one who corrected me on this point Lil Devils a ways ago, so again this leads to you another hypocrisy, or maybe just a poor memory.

If they were given options to be both society would not be pressuring them to choose. It has not yet come that far. They are not given facilities for both, there are not many options for them in sex segregated areas for both society in general has not yet accepted them as both.

This is wrong, factually. They are given options, you just didnt know about them, and assumed other wize. Plently of people choose to be gender-queer and plenty choose to be women or men. The key is that its their choice.

For the aside: Is skin tone different between the tribes? I always assumed the reason they were lumped together was their same brownish skin tone. I mean your white so i know that one does not have to be white to be a first nation person, but still, skin color attributes to how one could of been marginalized, that was more of my point. Sorry for being vague.

Comparing two spirits to creationism is comparing apples to orangutans. It has been known for thousands of years that gender does not have to match sex, and has now been confirmed in brain scans as well. This isn't some ' new discovery" we know nothing about, humanity has been living as and with this for a very long time now, and much has already been established by the many cultures of the world as well as science. Now you are just being silly for the sake of being silly.

They are NOT given options in the majority of western society, and that is an issue. Some have started to give them options, but it is far from being accepted everywhere as of yet. facilities are not provided everywhere yet, "Queer" is ALSO a derogatory term and have been used to abuse Two spirits as well, so it can also be considered a very negative and hurtful word, of course people in western society would not choose to be called "gender queer" because of the stigmas that go along with it."Queer" is still trying to say something is wrong with them. UGH, why must all words in the west used to describe two spirits be negative? It would be nice if for once they had a word without the negative " you are broken and not right" attached to it.

Yes, skin tone is different among the tribes, and the tribes actually came to the Americas at different times over thousands of years, so genetically they are frequently very different.

I can compare whatever i want, that is why its called a comparison. The only point that needs to be the same is the point i am comparing. The comparison as i stated before is that you have a set of beliefs which are not based on fact. Two spirited people are not based on science, they are cultural, as is every facet of gender as far as sociology is concerned. To argue gender is biological is something that i personally wish was true, but know the brain scan studies do not fully support, since they only show differences in brain structure, not the origins of such. That is the nature of nature vs nurture issues though.

And yea "Queer" being a derogatory term is more contextual than anything. Sorry if that offends you, but the western term and movement people identify with is "genderqueer". Negative words dont have to always stay negative you know? Case and point the N-word and african americans?

It is funny how you still dont get it. You refer to people as two spirited as if you had that right. Do you understand my point? You dont get to tell people how to live their lives. If they want to be women even though they were born men, then they get to be women. They dont have to KowTow to your "two spirited" viewpoint simply because you "think" it is better. It is like me calling all Hopi people "brown dudes" simply because they might of at one point had brown skin and i feel that it was appropriate for my "Western" culture. One culture doesn't trump another.

I have just as much right to refer to them as two spirit as you do to refer to them as homo sapiens. It is a non derogatory word with a definition that applies. It is no more wrong to refer to someone who has both masculine and feminine as two spirited as it is to refer to water as being wet. Yes, I DO have that right, and no I am not going to stop using my right simply because you think you have the right to take that right from me. You are still two spirit if you are born a woman and have cosmetic surgery to be a man, surgery does not change that.

If one culture does not " trump another" quit calling two spirits transgenders because transgenders is a negative word by definition and offensive.

LoL I dont call anyone anything. I let people call themselves things. So if a two spirited person from the first nations at my campus wants to be two spirted i dont get involved. And if a person wants to be referd to as women when they are born a man i dont get involved either. You dont understand the concept yet? You dont get to tell people how to live their lives, if you yourself do not want that type of control on you, which you clearly dont.

Homosapian is a scientific term. Two spirited is a first nation term. One is scientific fact, the other is cultural. Whether it is "derogatory" is really up to the individual being referenced and not us to decide. Case and point using the word "black" to refer to dark skined people with hertiage from Africa. I have had many hits and miss using the word.

Yes, I DO have that right, and no I am not going to stop using my right simply because you think you have the right to take that right from me.

You have the right to call someone whatever they want i understand that. That doesn't make you a sensible person though. That makes you a hypocrite, which was my point that you either are willfully ignoring or due to cultural differences dont seem to "get".
Regardless of the derogatory or non derogatory nature of the word, you make your self a hypocrite when you hold contradictory standards. And when you reveal someone's hypocracy that is enough to devaule their opinion, which is what i am setting out to do. This is because i dont like people who are so obviously hypocritical, since it makes me trust them less.

So call people whatever you want. Ill just call you out on it dogmaticly because of my contempt for people like you, blatant hypocrites.

Please stop with the name calling. Me choosing to use my own cultures terms that do not have the negativity associated with it as the western terms do does not make me a hypocrite and senseless. There is no need for insults, and there is nothing constructive that comes from insulting someone. I do not wish to call those whose gender differs from their sex " misaligned", thus will refrain from using such a negative term to describe them. That is not hypocrisy or insensibility.