Poll: A sensitive question about transgender and locker rooms

[neverwintergirl]

No, the problem isn't whether or not trans people feel safe, it is whether they actually are safe.

Allowing trans women into women's space might make some cis women feel unsafe, as they might hypothetically be assault by trans women. Only, this is a thing that doesn't tend to happen in the real world at all.

Pretty much true. A trans woman is the last person who wants to get in trouble because we know how bad the ultra conservative criminal justice system would treat us.

Trust me trans women aren't there to rape or sexually assault cis women.

 

[Demagogue]

@Reasonable Atheist

Sorry RA, apparently quotes have decided not to work this morning, so I have to do this the long way. >.<

In this context, doesn't the term "passable" refer to being well enough disguised to pass as the sex opposite of your birth without people knowing it by looking at you? -snip the cloud atlas stuff- Being passable is not up for debate as far as I know, it is not like you could have a discussion debating it with someone, they just roll their perception score against lets say.... your charisma score. If you win you are passable.

Personally I believe passable is completely up for debate, the biggest reason is that passable relies on prior experience and we all have different lives and experiences to pull from. As our new member @neverwintergirl pointed out we know that this woman is a trans woman now, so our minds subconsciously look for those queues. If we took those three images of her from the dailymail and showed them to random people on the street, I don't think we would get the 'obviously a male' results some are expecting.

I believe we agree here, more learning for children is almost always better. As long as it is not some kinda propaganda and really focuses on facts. I differ from your opinion when you jump to the words "worldwide". There are some places in the world where.... well Maybe they should just teach irrigation or something to start with.

Absolutely, there are definitely places where they have other critical life saving things to learn as well, but any nation that is advanced enough should be discussing trans people as well. I'd say a good rule of thumb would be if you teach biology then you should touch on trans people.

The reason I asked this particular question in the first place, is because about a year and a half ago I would have never even considered the possibility of someone being offended by misused pronouns. It is something that takes time to sink in, basic pronouns are like muscle memory for people. Only after being exposed to so many of the trans people who seem to populate a portion of the escapist forums, do I know some people take them super serious and its a big deal to them. If a year and a half ago I met a trans person, I would not have devoted any thought to making sure I got their pronoun right.

Absolutely it is something that takes time to sink in, and I guess I should clarify that I don't think common people need to know the complex minutia of trans life simply that they are people that exist as well, and the basic knowledge about them (I could be wrong on this, but I don't know for sure what would help the community either)

I do think you're not giving yourself enough credit though, you say you wouldn't have thought about offending someone by misusing a pronoun, however, if you were talking to someone and "excuse me sir could you please move your bag" and they corrected you saying "it is ma'am not sir" I'm pretty sure you would have apologized for the mistake and carried on your day without another thought.

I don't think the trans community is expecting the rest of the population to be psychic and be able to guess their gender 100%, and you can be sure that they are far more accurately aware on if they are 'passable' than we are (after all we are our own harshest critics). I look at it the same way as when someone accidentally thinks a woman is pregnant, and in reality she has just put on some weight (why people still SAY this is beyond me, but hey foot in mouth, heh).

Yes of course it matters if she has seen a trans women BEFORE the incident. Not to offend, (although im sure I will) But some trans people look very different from everyone else this woman may have ever seen before. So again I am trying to see things from her perspective here, she has never seen anyone like this before, she perceives them as male, and they walk in on her while she is presumably in some state of undress. Negative reaction, right off the bat. Had she already seen someone like that before, she may have had time to consider or learn things and would know she does not need to be scared of them. She may still feel uncomfortable, but at most (like my girlfried, although with bathrooms) would likely wait for them to leave before tending to her business.

I admit there is a possibility that I could have seen a trans person that was totally passable. But even in that hypathetical event, as it relates to this discussion, would said meeting prepare me in any way for my meeting with a not-passable trans person? No it would not, because she was passable, and so I learn nothing about how to behave with relation to trans people. However I would have accidentally acted correctly and treated her like a cis woman..... that is correct right?

*snickers* best typo ever... girlfried Mmmm fried date.

I'm looping these two together, as they touch on the same point. The first time someone meets a "not passable" trans person, I sure they're are some confused looks, and questions. I believe, in the case of trans women, that yes a woman would most likely be afraid (not that this is the trans woman's fault, that is all on media convincing women that they can't be safe anywhere, but I digress). My point however is that she knows now that this person is a woman, and still keeps referring to her as a man.

Again I could be wrong on this, but I think that is the point. Trans women want to be treated like cis woman, not as some creep in a dress who is just there to ogle them.

Well... if I had to share a changing room with females at some point, I for one would be doing a bit of oogling. I would oogle the shit out of those boobies, probably why I should not be allowed in there. I believe your argument here relies on being able to divine someone else's motivations, attitudes and sensibilities without any prior knowledge about that person.... not reasonable.

You are correct, my argument heavily relies on being able to divine someone else's motivations, etc. Which is the same basis your argument is relying on. The only difference is, I am assuming people are inherently good, and there are simply a few bad apples in the bunch, and you are assuming people are inherently bad, and there are simply a few good apples in the bunch.

Why am I assuming this? Because I believe that if humanity was really as bad as the media makes it out to be, we would have all been killed a long time ago.

 

[neverwintergirl]

My argument was simply that most people think society owes them a lot more than it should. The children example was just that, an extreme example. Being a trans with guy parts does not give you the right to be special in society. You can be special in private and do your own thing(you have that right as everybody else does), but when using toilets and locker rooms, you are qualified as a man.

And my sentence was simply an affirmation not whether I believe having separate changing rooms or not is good
Also, sorry for my English, I'm not a native speaker.

Again as I said to someone else you can't have post transition trans women using men's bathrooms or locker rooms. You would be disturbed as hell if Line Trap walked into the men's locker room and get undressed. "Ok that's a girl... wait... she I mean he?? has a penis? I'm so confused???" Or imagine at a urinal... lol

Of course 99% of the time this doesn't matter because someone like that is going to go to the women's room and change in a stall or do a 2 second pants swap when no one else in the locker room. And someone who looks like the trans woman in question who was part of the stir in planet fitness is going to grumble and change at home or go to the gym dressed as a guy. She's not quite passing (yet?)

 

[Petromir]

In an ideal world we'd have unisex changing rooms and toilet facilities (with urinals and stalls). Changing rooms could have stalls for the shy, and open changing for others. (The home shared facilities argument isn't hugely comparable as generally they are de-facto single sex facilities that change on occupancy. (On a vaguely related note due to the ways mens loos are laid out I'm fine with urinating with my wife in the room, but feel slightly uncomfortable defecting as the latter has always been a solitary cubical affair while the former with others present.)

That would normalise so many things. In the last few years I recall seeing a Scandinavian country's (I forget which, though think it was Norway) military had largely wiped out sexual abuse by introducing mixed sleeping accommodation (so single beds but mixed sex rooms)

The major point behind segregated changing is to make women in particular feel safer. Seeing male genitals sends the instant message MALE to the head, which works agains this, even if realisation comes afterwards, conversely prior knowledge can greatly reduce or entirely remove this affect but gaining that prior knowledge isn't easy.

 

[neverwintergirl]

In an ideal world we'd have unisex changing rooms and toilet facilities (with urinals and stalls). Changing rooms could have stalls for the shy, and open changing for others.

Agreed.

The major point behind segregated changing is to make women in particular feel safer. Seeing male genitals sends the instant message MALE to the head, which works agains this, even if realisation comes afterwards, conversely prior knowledge can greatly reduce or entirely remove this affect but gaining that prior knowledge isn't easy.

Again you are assuming a pre-op or non-op trans woman is just going to bottom drop in a changing room. The trans woman at planet fitness did no such thing, she just hung up a couple of coats and purses.

As for trans woman who do use the gym... most will either change at home or change in a bathroom stall. The very brave/adventurous might try a 2 second pants switch in an open locker room if no one else is in there but she's going to be sweating bullets while doing it. The only ones who would regularly change out in an open locker room with other people in it would be post op.

And for bathrooms, really no question here as women's rooms have stalls. Even for female to male trans men, there are stalls in men's rooms.

 

[Westonbirt]

Excuse me I find this buttsilly. I get regularly confused for a woman because I have a small stocky build and long hair.

This is yet another argument for unisex bathrooms.

 

[CFriis87]

While I personally wouldn't go into the women's locker rooms (I literally have so little confidence when it comes to "passing"), the fact is, situations like these aren't about whether a man looks like a man or a woman looks like a woman. If you're a transwoman that is forced to use the men's locker rooms you'd be in an infinitely more dangerous situation that if you were a transwoman using the women's locker rooms.

I feel the same way about prisons. Sending a transwoman to a male prison is basically like throwing her to the lions.

I'm sorry to hear you think average men in a public locker room would care enough about something like that to make for a dangerous situation.
Sure, prison I can see being a problem, since it's supposed to be full of violent criminals.
Violent criminals who would most likely see a trans woman as a weak effeminate man, and thus not someone whom it is dishonourable to attack.
Normal men's locker rooms on the other hand are generally full of guys who just want to get changed so they can get on with their lives.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

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I appreciate the passion here but this conversation is derailing the H out of the thread

Could you please take this conversation outside? I know it is quasi-related to the topic at hand but the definitions and technical terms and whatnot of what is and what isn't the meaning of transgender and whether it's offensive to call someone transgender isn't the point of what I wanted to discuss here.

Thank you

I apologize for responding as long as I did, it was not my intention to derail your thread. I will no longer be responding to those who take issue with difference in term use.

While I personally wouldn't go into the women's locker rooms (I literally have so little confidence when it comes to "passing"), the fact is, situations like these aren't about whether a man looks like a man or a woman looks like a woman. If you're a transwoman that is forced to use the men's locker rooms you'd be in an infinitely more dangerous situation that if you were a transwoman using the women's locker rooms.

I feel the same way about prisons. Sending a transwoman to a male prison is basically like throwing her to the lions.

I'm sorry to hear you think average men in a public locker room would care enough about something like that to make for a dangerous situation.
Sure, prison I can see being a problem, since it's supposed to be full of violent criminals.
Violent criminals who would most likely see a trans woman as a weak effeminate man, and thus not someone whom it is dishonourable to attack.
Normal men's locker rooms on the other hand are generally full of guys who just want to get changed so they can get on with their lives.

It isn't " just prisons" where the restrooms and locker rooms are dangerous. It is schools, night clubs, bars, sporting events, and parks as well.. The issue is these private facilities can be quite dangerous and they should not be. People are intimidated by these areas because it is safer to walk down a dark alleyway than it is to go into a latrine.

 

[Montezuma's Lawyer]

Not everyone is a rapist.

Naked people should not be scary.

Adults need to just get the fuck over whatever fears they have of naked people.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Not everyone is a rapist.

Naked people should not be scary.

Adults need to just get the fuck over whatever fears they have of naked people.

The issue is the frequency that people are attacked in private facilities, it isn't like this is uncommon:
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=raped%20in%20the%20restroom

The frequency at which this happens is the problem, so now they are forced to use women's facilities as refuges from the violence of the men's facilities.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I'm sorry to hear you think average men in a public locker room would care enough about something like that to make for a dangerous situation.
Sure, prison I can see being a problem, since it's supposed to be full of violent criminals.
Violent criminals who would most likely see a trans woman as a weak effeminate man, and thus not someone whom it is dishonourable to attack.
Normal men's locker rooms on the other hand are generally full of guys who just want to get changed so they can get on with their lives.

This, unfortunately, is not the case. Trans women in male areas are constantly being assaulted. For that matter, cis women as well.

In any case, those violent criminals inhabiting prison weren't born there, they were put there (in theory) for violent crimes they committed outside, when they were ordinary guys.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

I'm sorry to hear you think average men in a public locker room would care enough about something like that to make for a dangerous situation.
Sure, prison I can see being a problem, since it's supposed to be full of violent criminals.
Violent criminals who would most likely see a trans woman as a weak effeminate man, and thus not someone whom it is dishonourable to attack.
Normal men's locker rooms on the other hand are generally full of guys who just want to get changed so they can get on with their lives.

This, unfortunately, is not the case. Trans women in male areas are constantly being assaulted. For that matter, cis women as well.

In any case, those violent criminals inhabiting prison weren't born there, they were put there (in theory) for violent crimes they committed outside, when they were ordinary guys.

^ This. Criminals do not " grow" in prisons. The people in prisons were regular guys until they were convicted, neighbors, family co workers.. friends. they didn't just suddenly spring up from the ground from the cracks of prisons. They are the people we are around every day, until they are convicted of crime then they are considered prisoners.. and when they get out unless you know their history, they go back to being " regular guys" and you would never know.

It must be shocking I know.. but many people know rapist, interact with them every day and see them as regular guys like everyone else.

 

[Boris Goodenough]

I'm sorry to hear you think average men in a public locker room would care enough about something like that to make for a dangerous situation.
Sure, prison I can see being a problem, since it's supposed to be full of violent criminals.
Violent criminals who would most likely see a trans woman as a weak effeminate man, and thus not someone whom it is dishonourable to attack.
Normal men's locker rooms on the other hand are generally full of guys who just want to get changed so they can get on with their lives.

This, unfortunately, is not the case. Trans women in male areas are constantly being assaulted. For that matter, cis women as well.

In any case, those violent criminals inhabiting prison weren't born there, they were put there (in theory) for violent crimes they committed outside, when they were ordinary guys.

^ This. Criminals do not " grow" in prisons. The people in prisons were regular guys until they were convicted, neighbors, family co workers.. friends. they didn't just suddenly spring up from the ground from the cracks of prisons. They are the people we are around every day, until they are convicted of crime then they are considered prisoners.. and when they get out unless you know their history, they go back to being " regular guys" and you would never know.

It must be shocking I know.. but many people know rapist, interact with them every day and see them as regular guys like everyone else.

I think thaluikhain knows that, his wording was just off.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

I'm sorry to hear you think average men in a public locker room would care enough about something like that to make for a dangerous situation.
Sure, prison I can see being a problem, since it's supposed to be full of violent criminals.
Violent criminals who would most likely see a trans woman as a weak effeminate man, and thus not someone whom it is dishonourable to attack.
Normal men's locker rooms on the other hand are generally full of guys who just want to get changed so they can get on with their lives.

This, unfortunately, is not the case. Trans women in male areas are constantly being assaulted. For that matter, cis women as well.

In any case, those violent criminals inhabiting prison weren't born there, they were put there (in theory) for violent crimes they committed outside, when they were ordinary guys.

^ This. Criminals do not " grow" in prisons. The people in prisons were regular guys until they were convicted, neighbors, family co workers.. friends. they didn't just suddenly spring up from the ground from the cracks of prisons. They are the people we are around every day, until they are convicted of crime then they are considered prisoners.. and when they get out unless you know their history, they go back to being " regular guys" and you would never know.

It must be shocking I know.. but many people know rapist, interact with them every day and see them as regular guys like everyone else.

I think thaluikhain knows that, his wording was just off.

I know he does I was agreeing with him.

 

[Boris Goodenough]

I know he does I was agreeing with him.

Sigh, I can't even use the excuse that I am sick atm...
>.>

 

[Gorrath]

I guess my feelings boil down to this: When women are abused, raped, or otherwise physically harmed, the perpetrator is nine times out of ten (actually far more often) going to have a penis. Why this is, you can debate, but the fact is there.

All concepts of identity, gender, etc. aside, I think all females - people born with vulvas, ovaries, breasts, etc. - have the right to certain spaces away from males - people born with penises, testicles, prostates, etc - because they are statistically far, far more likely to both experience violence in those spaces or have histories of violence that could be triggered in those spaces. Any transwoman who does not understand or respect that has no place being anywhere around women anyway.

Submitted for your consideration: All concepts of race aside, I think all white people - people born of two white parents - have the right to certain spaces away from minorities - people born with darker skin - because they are statistically more likely to commit a violent act against a white person than another white person or trigger a sense of distress in the white person because of racial fears. Any person of color who does not understand or respect that has no place being anywhere near white people anyway.

While the above is not a perfect analogy (none are), it does serve to demonstrate why people's fears do not constitute a proper reason for discrimination. The whole idea that a space is "safe" or "safer" because there are no men present is a sexist assertion. Anyone that argues that there is statistically a good reason for women to fear men may find making that same argument under any other context rather uncomfortable. I'd advocate that we are better off treating people as individuals and not boogeymen based on statistics. Our fear of one another based on race/sex/gender/sexual preference ect. ect. should be our own issue to deal with, not the burden of those we fear to bear.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

I guess my feelings boil down to this: When women are abused, raped, or otherwise physically harmed, the perpetrator is nine times out of ten (actually far more often) going to have a penis. Why this is, you can debate, but the fact is there.

All concepts of identity, gender, etc. aside, I think all females - people born with vulvas, ovaries, breasts, etc. - have the right to certain spaces away from males - people born with penises, testicles, prostates, etc - because they are statistically far, far more likely to both experience violence in those spaces or have histories of violence that could be triggered in those spaces. Any transwoman who does not understand or respect that has no place being anywhere around women anyway.

Submitted for your consideration: All concepts of race aside, I think all white people - people born of two white parents - have the right to certain spaces away from minorities - people born with darker skin - because they are statistically more likely to commit a violent act against a white person than another white person or trigger a sense of distress in the white person because of racial fears. Any person of color who does not understand or respect that has no place being anywhere near white people anyway.

While the above is not a perfect analogy (none are), it does serve to demonstrate why people's fears do not constitute a proper reason for discrimination. The whole idea that a space is "safe" or "safer" because there are no men present is a sexist assertion. Anyone that argues that there is statistically a good reason for women to fear men may find making that same argument under any other context rather uncomfortable. I'd advocate that we are better off treating people as individuals and not boogeymen based on statistics. Our fear of one another based on race/sex/gender/sexual preference ect. ect. should be our own issue to deal with, not the burden of those we fear to bear.

But that would do you no good, you would be locked up with the serial killers and Rapist!
"Recent studies reveal that most school shooters are White males, with 97 percent being male and 79 percent White. Over the last three decades, 90 percent of high school or elementary school shootings were the result of White, often upper-middle class, perpetrators. "
http://www.politicalresearch.org/2014/06/19/mass-shooters-have-a-gender-and-a-race/#
"Sex offenders are overwhelmingly white males."
http://sapac.umich.edu/article/196

So non whites should want to be separated from those white murderers and rapist? YIKES..

 

[Gorrath]

I guess my feelings boil down to this: When women are abused, raped, or otherwise physically harmed, the perpetrator is nine times out of ten (actually far more often) going to have a penis. Why this is, you can debate, but the fact is there.

All concepts of identity, gender, etc. aside, I think all females - people born with vulvas, ovaries, breasts, etc. - have the right to certain spaces away from males - people born with penises, testicles, prostates, etc - because they are statistically far, far more likely to both experience violence in those spaces or have histories of violence that could be triggered in those spaces. Any transwoman who does not understand or respect that has no place being anywhere around women anyway.

Submitted for your consideration: All concepts of race aside, I think all white people - people born of two white parents - have the right to certain spaces away from minorities - people born with darker skin - because they are statistically more likely to commit a violent act against a white person than another white person or trigger a sense of distress in the white person because of racial fears. Any person of color who does not understand or respect that has no place being anywhere near white people anyway.

While the above is not a perfect analogy (none are), it does serve to demonstrate why people's fears do not constitute a proper reason for discrimination. The whole idea that a space is "safe" or "safer" because there are no men present is a sexist assertion. Anyone that argues that there is statistically a good reason for women to fear men may find making that same argument under any other context rather uncomfortable. I'd advocate that we are better off treating people as individuals and not boogeymen based on statistics. Our fear of one another based on race/sex/gender/sexual preference ect. ect. should be our own issue to deal with, not the burden of those we fear to bear.

But that would do you no good, you would be locked up with the serial killers and Rapist!
"Recent studies reveal that most school shooters are White males, with 97 percent being male and 79 percent White. Over the last three decades, 90 percent of high school or elementary school shootings were the result of White, often upper-middle class, perpetrators. "
http://www.politicalresearch.org/2014/06/19/mass-shooters-have-a-gender-and-a-race/#
"Sex offenders are overwhelmingly white males."
http://sapac.umich.edu/article/196

So non whites should want to be separated from those white murderers and rapist? YIKES..

Obviously I'd take exception to the point made based on the evidence presented.

- Mass murderers make up a tiny minority of murders committed.

- Gathering rape/sexual assault statistics remains massively problematic due to varying qualifications for what constitutes rape or sexual assault and the fact that men are even less likely to admit to being raped/sexually assaulted than a woman is.

- None of these statistics answer my point; personal fear is not a good reason to be discriminatory and that our personal fears should be our burden, not the burden of those we fear. This point seems to be accepted by my fellow progressives in every case EXCEPT when it comes to statistics regarding male violence against females.

How often might we hear the following?

- "I'm sorry you've had bad experiences but that doesn't give you the right to be racist."

- "Suicide bombings may be primarily committed by Muslims but that's no reason to fear Muslims or Islam."

Compare and contrast that with:

- "These women just want a safe space."

I'd easily expect to hear all three phrases come out of the same person's mouth. And to those that would agree with all three statements, please consider the hypocrisy involved. I advocate for the first two as being the proper way to approach these things.

Edited for a formatting error.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

sniped

Obviously I'd take exception to the point made based on the evidence presented.

- Mass murderers make up a tiny minority of murders committed.

- Gathering rape/sexual assault statistics remains massively problematic due to varying qualifications for what constitutes rape or sexual assault and the fact that men are even less likely to admit to being raped/sexually assaulted than a woman is.

- None of these statistics answer my point; personal fear is not a good reason to be discriminatory and that our personal fears should be our burden, not the burden of those we fear. This point seems to be accepted by my fellow progressives in every case EXCEPT when it comes to statistics regarding male violence against females.

How often might we hear the following?

- "I'm sorry you've had bad experiences but that doesn't give you the right to be racist."

- "Suicide bombings may be primarily committed by Muslims but that's no reason to fear Muslims or Islam."

Compare and contrast that with:

- "These women just want a safe space."

I'd easily expect to hear all three phrases come out of the same person's mouth. And to those that would agree with all three statements, please consider the hypocrisy involved. I advocate for the first two as being the proper way to approach these things.

The bigger issue is that our judicial system is failing victims. Prison should be a barrier between those that wish to harm and those that they intend to harm, and it is not. In fact nothing is. There is nothing to stop people who wish to cause harm, thus why people are in fear in the first place. The issue is this ISN'T uncommon, it isn't rare, it is happening all over the place many times a day, and the current measures and actions taken are not preventing it. This puts people in a position to "defend themselves instead" And then we have the other big issue with that, it is MUCH more difficult for a woman to fight off a man due to biological differences in build and strength. So when you put women in a compromised position such as a locker room or restroom, AND have them isolated, alone due to how restrooms are built, they have very little recourse to escape or defend themselves. Criminals know this and that is why so many are raped in restrooms currently as it is. The criminals target restrooms because they know they are more likely to 1) be able to commit the crime successfully ( actually finish) and 2) they are more likely to get away with it. since the privacy of the restroom prevented witnesses, and allowed them to have time to commit the crime in the first place.

You can avoid walking down a dark alleyway, you cannot avoid needing to pee, and restrooms are more dangerous than alleyways is the problem.

Edit: ALSO I would feel safer locked in a room full of muggers and robbers than be in the same room full of non criminals and 1 serial killer, they kill people because they need money or something was started with them, the serial killer will kill the whole room just for fun.

It is not racist or sexist to tell people to not walk down dark alleyways, the problem here is they have to go to areas more dangerous than dark alleyways and there is nothing being done about it.

 

[Gorrath]

The bigger issue is that our judicial system is failing victims. Prison should be a barrier between those that wish to harm and those that they intend to harm, and it is not. In fact nothing is. There is nothing to stop people who wish to cause harm, thus why people are in fear in the first place. The issue is this ISN'T uncommon, it isn't rare, it is happening all over the place many times a day, and the current measures and actions taken are not preventing it. This puts people in a position to "defend themselves instead" And then we have the pother big issue with that, it is MUCH more difficult for a woman to fight off a man due to biological differences in build and strength. So when you put women in a compromised position such as a locker room or restroom, AND have them isolated, alone due to how restrooms are built, they have very little recourse to escape or defend themselves. Criminals know this and that is why so many are raped in restrooms currently as it is. The criminals target restrooms because they know they are more likely to 1) be able to commit the crime successfully ( actually finish) and 2) they are more likely to get away with it. since the privacy of the restroom prevented witnesses, and allowed them to have time to commit the crime in the first place.

That is because there is no practical way for law enforcement or prison to be a barrier between victims and criminals. We are, all of us, mostly stuck in a position where we must defend ourselves. If there was a practical solution to this issue, I've yet to hear it.

You say that it is not uncommon for a rape in a rest-room to occur. I guess that depends on how you define "common" but I'll bite. Black people are around 8 times more likely to commit a violent crime than white people (I have reasonable objections to this statistic but there it is), violent crime happens all the time (subjective claim lacking context). Therefore, people have a justifiable fear of black people committing violent crime against them (a flawed claim based on treating individuals as statistics and ignoring cultural and racial issues involved). And so, people should be allowed to have "safe spaces" away from black people (An argument no progressive would buy.)


Nothing that you claim above appears to be wrong. All of your information is factual as far as I can tell. However, I do have a problem with the presumed conclusions people draw based on those facts. They are, as I've shown, conclusions we'd not accept in any other circumstance.