Poll: Abortion- What's your position and why?

[MagicShroom]

It's a womans body, it's her choice. Simple as that, case closed.

Oh sure the body is the woman's but the life she's carrying isn't hers, Denying a life is just wrong plain and simple... case closed!

You mean denying a potential life? An undeveloped featus is not alive in the strictest sense. It cannot live without the mother and relies on her completely for all of its bodily functions and nueitrients. If we're condemming people who have ever killed potential life, I sure as hell hope you aren't so hypocritical as to have ever had a wank before because that kills countless sperm cells, all of which are potential babies. Crap, you're profile says your a girl..kinda lost some steam there. Fine then, how about this, every month when you ovulate, your body kills a perfectly function egg off (an egg made up of living cells, which could potentially develop into a human baby).[/quote]

I am well aware of that (lol I am a male btw), and that happens naturally, you can't condemn someone for practice or natural causes (besides natural causes is not YOU denying it). Not completely hypocritical but you almost got me there. Also define strictest sense for me?

To the promiscuous: There are consequences to your actions take responsibility for them. Remember the rule of opportunity cost.

I don't see how this even passes as an argument. "Women, you have no rights and by god don't enjoy yourselves. Don't dare compare yourselves to men, who are allowed to sleep around with whomever they want, without any lifechanging consequences."
Honestly it baffles the mind. Sex is not bad, sex does not need have negative consequences (especially when they are restricted to one gender).

Fine, women who sleep around (or don't, and just get pregnant while having protected sex with their husband before they are ready for kids, whatever) are responsible for that. I'm going to assume they are intelligent, educated and moral (to not do so is unfair to those that are) and in this case, it's their choice. It's their potential kid and it's their life. It is up to them to decide for their potential child

For the record, not all abortions are performed on college sluts, as you (among others) seem keen on implying. In fact, I've read that most abortions are performed on women who already have children and cannot support more (I can't remember where, so I can't source it, but at any rate it's a realistic scenario even if my sats are wrong). Should they not be allowed to make the responsible decision because you feel strongly about the point in time when a group of developing cells become human?

1. I never said or even implied "Sex is bad, it have negative consequences" nor did I ever say or imply "Women, you have no rights and by god don't enjoy yourselves. Don't dare compare yourselves to men, who are allowed to sleep around with whomever they want, without any lifechanging consequences." now get that straight.

2. There are things called a comdom, birth control, "the shot", "the patch", spermicide, and to the extreme, vasectomy or "getting the tubes tied". abstinence is the best these work well also.

3. You almost got me here also, They don't even have to promiscuous to come to that it could be their first time and decided to not use a condom, or it broke while doing it, so take responsibility. Again SHE did this to herself, SHE must live with it. (its the responsible thing to do.)

To the rape victim: I am so sorry that this unfortunate event have happened to you, but do not take it out on the fetus, it has done nothing to you. Even though it had reminded you of the horror and the pain, there are better options than abortion (maybe put them up for adoption)

Better options you say? Like, perhaps, trusting abandoned children to anyone who'll take them? Let them be raised by complete strangers so they feel completely abandoned? What if they disover later in life that their father is a rapist, I'm sure that would go down well. Better is a very subjective term, maybe it would be nice to let those involved (and educated) decide rather than force our veiws on them?

Adoption goes many many ways you're just looking at it too broad and pessimistically. There are people also in the world who wants kids but can't make their own.

 

[Sark]

It's a womans body, it's her choice. Simple as that, case closed.

Oh sure the body is the woman's but the life she's carrying isn't hers, Denying a life is just wrong plain and simple... case closed!

To the promiscuous: There are consequences to your actions take responsibility for them. Remember the rule of opportunity cost.

To the rape victim: I am so sorry that this unfortunate event have happened to you, but do not take it out on the fetus, it has done nothing to you. Even though it had reminded you of the horror and the pain, there are better options than abortion (maybe put them up for adoption)

To the "you or the child" person: This situation is so rare nowadays even that you are just told that, there's a chance that the doctor is wrong, who knows.

The "baby should have a choice" argument is also pants on head retarded. We don't let children choose anything, we force them to go to school, brush their teeth and wash behind their ears. It is a parents job to decide what's best for a child, regardless of whether they agree or not. If the mother doesn't feel she can raise a child, it's her choice to spare said child of it's potentially damaging childhood.

WTF does this have to do with this thread, of course babies cannot make a choice, their brains aren't fully developed.

thankyou. yay for reason!

And if their brains aren't fully developed, they aren't really people. So out comes the coathanger.

By that logic, anyone with less than normal brain function should be allowed to be killed at whim. Hell, of course caring for someone with a mental disability is inconvenient, possibly even more inconvenient than pregnancy. Therefore if abortion is ok because the brain isnt developed, people should be allowed to kill disabled people in their care, if the inconvenience is too much.

See the fallacy here?

No. You see problems, I see solutions.

 

[CNKFan]

Not my body, not my decision. So I think that it should be legal.

 

[Borrowed Time]

Definately pro choice, but within limits. The system Wild Cat described is imo a very good one.
You have the chance to get rid of the fetus to a certain point, as long as it is still just a collection of cells, but it's no free pass to do it whenever you want to.
You can add a obligatory consultation to discuss other options (adoption comes to mind, there are many desperate people out there, not being able to get kids on their own) and consequences and so on, but in the end it should be the womans choice.

Several points though

1. For our "hey its living, it's murder" crowd.. kinda hypocritical as long as we kill hundreds of thousand animals every year, that too have feelings and a life and so on. Not because we have to, but hey everyone wants at least 40 different meat types in the supermarket right? Or the new make up that makes your eyes glitter need to be testet on real living eyes so we can see if it's to painful whatever. Oh but I forgot animals aren't humans and god said they should serve us... damn lucky we aren't just overgrwon apes. Speak morales and want to be upset about killing living things, please do it for every kind.

I differentiate between animals and humans. :shrug: That whole "ability to have consciousness" gets to me.

2. For the "well rape is certainly bad, but hey it isn't the babys fault just get it and give it up for adoption" as long as you havn't been raped, why don't you just keep your mouth closed and let the people who have to live with it for the rest of their lives decide?
You can say "hey I understand" as often as you want, you don't till you've been there.
If there are any here, who had the "luck" of being raped and gotten pregnant and decided to get the baby, my deepest respect for a tough decision, I think noone should have to make.

I have two very, very good friends who were raped (one with a pregnancy, one with out) and I'm basing my opinion off of what they've told me about their life and the difficulties that they've had to go through as a result. For the record, the one with the pregnancy carried the baby to term and gave him up for adoption. She's at peace with knowing she didn't take the selfish route and gave the child a chance. The other friend said she would have done the same.

3. And last but not least for our friends from the "hey show some responsibility and it shouldn't be a free ride whenever you're just to bored to use condoms etc.".
You're right you should be responsible and you should be careful.

But people need to show responsibility for their actions! Er, wait a second. Damnit, don't confuse me like this!

But especially kids arn't always and due to the way lots of countries handle sex, I think it's not only their fault. As long as we treat it as something to be done secretly and with a mixture of shame and lust, you're really surprised many don't handle it well?
Just accept sex is a part of normal life and start treating it so publicly, tell the kids about it, about the risk, about the dangers, about the fun and how to make good decisions.
Especially the male ones with their fave "doesn't feel good with condom" and "if you really love me you would..." attitudes. Responsibility is very much a male thing too, although we often like to put it all on the women.

Agreed 110% with every word

Oh and claiming abortions are a free ride, is a bit far fetched too. Being a man I didn't have one myself, but seeing what deep conflict and emotional trauma it created in 3 friends of mine, I guess the whole "hey you could just have sex whenever you want and just abort, if you happen to get pregnant again" seems to be nothing more than a try to vilify a process, which by all accounts isn't something you can easily cope with and quite certainly wouldn't make a hobby out of.

Which is exactly what I was stating earlier about there being emotional and physical trauma with abortion as well as carrying a child to term. Many of us have never said abortion is with out consequence, but I have said it is the "easy" way out. What's easier? Dealing with emotional and physical stress and not having to worry about a child because you can't deal with it/aren't ready for it/never wanted it? Or going through a 9 month pregnancy, dealing with the emotional and physical stress over that time period and then giving the child up for adoption or :gasp: heaven forbid actually caring for the child.

For our friends of the "pro life as long as it is normal" really? You would kill the child for it's own good? How noble, but seeing how many people with illnesses, defects, disabilities grow up to live productive and quite happy lives, is it really about their happiness or about you not wanting to cope with a problematic child?

Agreed 110% once again. Hypocricy sickens me.

I find it quite interesting how individuals say that "if the fetus baby isn't self sufficient then by all means, kill it off, it's your choice", yet fail to realize that a good portion of the population in these forums are far from self sufficient, still living off their parents. Should we allow parents to kill these individuals off as well, or should we instead let them continue to grow and allow them to rise to their potential? I can guarantee you that many of them would not be able to make it on the street on their own. Just a thought mind you.

 

[Akai Shizuku]

I am strongly against abortion; I see it as the murder of an unborn child and denying that child the right to live when it has done nothing wrong to anybody, and I find it sickening that this child would just be killed because their parents were irresponsible.

And the flame war begins...

 

[Lord George]

Unless its your body you have no say in the matter, anti-abortionist's are just as bad as people who are anti-homosexual, your trying to interfere with something that is none of your business and that you have no right to interfere with.

 

[SimpleChimp]

I am Pro-choice, not pro-abortion.

Meaning of course that i support a woman's right to chose.

 

[Vuljatar]

Unless its your body you have no say in the matter, anti-abortionist's are just as bad as people who are anti-homosexual, your trying to interfere with something that is none of your business and that you have no right to interfere with.

This. In my mind, the point where it becomes morally questionable is the time at which if the fetus were born then, it could have a decent chance of surviving.

Either way, the government should not be involved.

 

[DrunkWithPower]

It's about choice for me.

 

[Reklore]

Lets not think as this as Immoral or moral, but if it was legal or illegal.

If it?s Illegal, it doesn?t mean we can stop Abortion, even if its not by some black-market.

I've heard of a young teenage girl that took up smoking, drinking and got her friend to push her in the stomach as hard as she can to kill her baby.
This mite happened more oven if it was illegal. Not only is this inhumane but it is very dangerous to the mother.

If it legal then it will happened less, but there may be more abortion.

I think we should not tell girls not to have an abortion, but try and help them.

I can?t decide if its moral or not. On the one side its stopping a human from being born, on the after, Hitters mother was going to have an Abortion but her doctor talk her out of it.

 

[Dys]

Look, I don't want this to become a slugging match, but to imply pregancy is something a mother can just do and then move on/forget is preposterous. There are hormonal, emotional, physical and mental repurcussions for pregnancy that can stay with her for the rest of her life. Whereas this 'child' has no more of a chance now than it did if she had never gotten pregnant.

abortions also cause hormonal, emotional, physical and mental repurcussions
Seriously. no slugs intended.

Quoted for truth. There are reprocussions to a woman's mental being as well as body no matter if it's abortion or pregnancy. In fact, an abortion has quite a few more, considering it's completely un-natural and invasive. And don't anyone dare try to tell me that a miscarriage is the same as an abortion. -_- Sorry, not going to fly.

Are you implying that an abortion is worse than a miscarrage?

If that's the case, I'd kindly like to inform you that isn't so. An abortion can be as simple as taking a drug early in the pregnancy. I hardly think swallowing a pill can be compared to a traumatic stillbirth (they really aren't a fun experience). Not to say there are never negative effects from aborting this way, just that it's completely absurd to rate it next to the shock of discovering a baby you wanted dead (or for that matter a child brough up by parents who don't want it).

Trying to apply the worst case scenario of a miscarriage to a best case scenario of an abortion doesn't work in debate, sorry. Apples =/= Oranges.

Of course how silly of me, we should definately assume that all women who get abortions are evil adultresses who wouldn't dare abort responsibly or safely.

Wait, worst case scenario of a miscarriage? That's the only case scenario of a stillbirth. And anyway, my point was exactly that, that it's stupid to compare a miscarrage to an abortion because an abortion doesn't need to be done in the third trimester. I'm going around in circles now, constantly repeating myself, I think I'm going to stop replying to this thread.

 

[scotth266]

What all arguments boil down to, concerning abortion, is what you classify as life. I don't think anyone claims that a bundle of proteins and DNA attatched to a woman is life, so what we are really discussing is potential. The potential of a child, what it might become and what it can do and be.

Scientifically, a fetus IS life. Biologically, life is defined as being anything that has all of the following factors:

Spoiler: Long, biological explanation.

1. Homeostasis: Regulation of the internal environment to maintain a constant state; for example, electrolyte concentration or sweating to reduce temperature.

The fetus does have biological functions that it controls, even though it does depend on the mother for several things.

2. Organization: Being structurally composed of one or more cells, which are the basic units of life.

Obviously true of a fetus.

3. Metabolism: Transformation of energy by converting chemicals and energy into cellular components (anabolism) and decomposing organic matter (catabolism). Living things require energy to maintain internal organization (homeostasis) and to produce the other phenomena associated with life.

While the fetus cannot fully perform this on its own, it does perform metabolic functions.

4. Growth: Maintenance of a higher rate of anabolism than catabolism. A growing organism increases in size in all of its parts, rather than simply accumulating matter.

Need I state the obvious?

5. Adaptation: The ability to change over a period of time in response to the environment. This ability is fundamental to the process of evolution and is determined by the organism's heredity as well as the composition of metabolized substances, and external factors present.

This one is debatable. In my opinion, even though a fetus cannot adapt to anything too strenuous, seeing as we humans are alive, the fetus should merely be considered a delicate stage of our life cycle.

6. Response to stimuli: A response can take many forms, from the contraction of a unicellular organism to external chemicals, to complex reactions involving all the senses of higher animals. A response is often expressed by motion, for example, the leaves of a plant turning toward the sun (phototropism) and by chemotaxis.

Once again, somewhat obvious.

7. Reproduction: The ability to produce new individual organisms either asexually, from a single parent organism, or sexually, from at least two parent organisms.

The entire process of the human fetus growing is the reproduction of cells... some of which eventually form reproductive organs made with the intent of- you guessed it- making more fetuses.

So it's not debatable whether or not a fetus is alive. Whether it has a soul is: but that's a question to be left to philosophers and theologians, not politicians and lawyers on EITHER side.

 

[lostclause]

snip

Can I ask for a source for this? I'm not sure it's entirely correct, mainly because of no 2 which would classify bacteria as non-living.

 

[Borrowed Time]

Look, I don't want this to become a slugging match, but to imply pregancy is something a mother can just do and then move on/forget is preposterous. There are hormonal, emotional, physical and mental repurcussions for pregnancy that can stay with her for the rest of her life. Whereas this 'child' has no more of a chance now than it did if she had never gotten pregnant.

abortions also cause hormonal, emotional, physical and mental repurcussions
Seriously. no slugs intended.

Quoted for truth. There are reprocussions to a woman's mental being as well as body no matter if it's abortion or pregnancy. In fact, an abortion has quite a few more, considering it's completely un-natural and invasive. And don't anyone dare try to tell me that a miscarriage is the same as an abortion. -_- Sorry, not going to fly.

Are you implying that an abortion is worse than a miscarrage?

If that's the case, I'd kindly like to inform you that isn't so. An abortion can be as simple as taking a drug early in the pregnancy. I hardly think swallowing a pill can be compared to a traumatic stillbirth (they really aren't a fun experience). Not to say there are never negative effects from aborting this way, just that it's completely absurd to rate it next to the shock of discovering a baby you wanted dead (or for that matter a child brough up by parents who don't want it).

Trying to apply the worst case scenario of a miscarriage to a best case scenario of an abortion doesn't work in debate, sorry. Apples =/= Oranges.

Of course how silly of me, we should definately assume that all women who get abortions are evil adultresses who wouldn't dare abort responsibly or safely.

Wait, worst case scenario of a miscarriage? That's the only case scenario of a stillbirth. And anyway, my point was exactly that, that it's stupid to compare a miscarrage to an abortion because an abortion doesn't need to be done in the third trimester. I'm going around in circles now, constantly repeating myself, I think I'm going to stop replying to this thread.

I was more alluding to the fact of a miscarriage being unintentional, you know, kind of like the difference between murder and death by natural causes, pretty big difference there.

My response with my "worst case scenario" is the fact that you made it sound like (at least when I read it) an abortion is always a benign thing (which it never is, it's the purposeful ending of a life, and it's been established in this thread that the debate was never about life, because a fetus baby is alive.) while a miscarriage is the exact opposite (the unintended loss of a wanted life).

"Of course how silly of me, we should definately assume that all women who get abortions are evil adultresses who wouldn't dare abort responsibly or safely." Here you're just being asanine, I never said that, and if you actually look at my original post you'll see that most of it was talking about rape/incest/woman's life in danger. If I'm really getting your undies in that much of a bunch, then yes it might be for the best that you just ignore this thread and my replies.

snip

Can I ask for a source for this? I'm not sure it's entirely correct, mainly because of no 2 which would classify bacteria as non-living.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/bio99/bio99171.htm
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/life
http://www.physicalgeography.net/fundamentals/9a.html

 

[scotth266]

snip

Can I ask for a source for this? I'm not sure it's entirely correct, mainly because of no 2 which would classify bacteria as non-living.

Bacteria are cells.

You're thinking of VIRUSES (which are still a mystery to biologists in terms of whether or not they're alive.)

Source: Scroll down to Biology. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life]

 

[Vuljatar]

At which point does the combination of a sperm and an egg equal life?

Am I killing millions of babies every time I jerk off?

 

[lostclause]

snip

Can I ask for a source for this? I'm not sure it's entirely correct, mainly because of no 2 which would classify bacteria as non-living.

Bacteria are cells.

You're thinking of VIRUSES (which are still a mystery to biologists in terms of whether or not they're alive.)

Sorry, misread. Thought 2 said 'made up of more than one cell'. That was what confused me as that would classify bacteria as nonliving.

 

[scotth266]

Snip.

Not a problem.

To clarify, since I haven't actually posted it: my position on the abortion issue is that it is highly unethical as a means of birth control and should be outlawed as such. There are far more humane methods than abortion out there.

However, this does not mean I support an across-the-board ban: I believe that abortion should be allowed as a medical procedure (if the mother would face severe danger if she didn't have the abortion, she should be given the option.) I also believe that in cases of rape the woman should have a right to decide whether she wants an abortion.

In all other cases though, I am firmly against abortion.

 

[Treblaine]

You have to love how Escapist forums always ends up debating light and easy going subjects.

Further opinions of mine
Capital punishment: yes
Corporal punishment: no
Euthanasia: no
blood sports: yes
Torture: no
civilian gun ownership: yes
gay marriage: yes
conscription: yes
Nuclear weapons: no
Evolution: yes
Keynesian economics: yes
Wii: worth it
PS3 or 360: 360
OK, which platform is really better: PC of course
Chicken or egg: Egg
Favourite colour: green... No Blue! AAUUUUURGHHH! (falls to death)