Poll: Abortions in today's society: your views
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Hah, right. Would YOU want to be that child that lives it's whole life developmentally and mentally disabled because the mother couldn't afford food for it when it was growing up? Neglecting a child is on the same level as beating it senseless every day. Popping out kid after kid because it's better to have retarded kids than dead ones is an asinine argument.zehydra said:
Hmmm...I'm a fairly callous person.
Very, very, very rare will a condom break because of a production fault, at least with a name-brand. They are tested VERY vigorously because the manufacturer is afraid of liable mishaps. The numbers for that would be so low as to be a statistical anomaly.Jonluw said:
As an anecdote, my dorm mates and I tried to have a water balloon fight with condoms once, the fuckers WOULD NOT BREAK, even thrown on concrete and stepped on.
Underrepresented in the decision making? Hell yes they are. The financial aftermath? Well since men are, in most countries, by law obligated to pay child support regardless if they are still together with the mother or not I'd say the are pretty overrepresented when it comes to taking the heat for the financial aftermath.Mandalore_15 said:
That being said, I can't really condone forcing women to undergo abortions because the man doesn't want to be a father. It is the womans body after all, and invasive procedures are something that she has to have the final word in.
That said, I think the man should have the right to relinquish his judicial status as the father and thus not having to pay for child-support if the father vehemently doesn't wish to be a parent, and that he had sex with the woman under the good faith that she would have an abortion if contraceptives failed.
After all, the woman gets the full rights to decide whether the child is going to be born or not, hence she should have more responsibilities in regards to honoring her word.
Also don't forget the fact that women cheat on their boyfriends and husbands from time to time, and the law rarely calls for mandatory DNA tests in order to determine who the real father is, but rarely has any problems with basically forcing the wrong guy to financially support for a child that isn't even his own.
For legal reasons, I think DNA tests should be mandatory. And also for the sake of people's relationships. After all what woman wouldn't be offended if her man called for a DNA test if she got pregnant? I doubt that the resulting fallout would really benefit the coming child. So mandatory DNA testing and written contracts that both parents are made aware that they are the biological parents of the child in question should be made mandatory.
The state could also offer a kind of "prenuptual agreement" in regards to unexpected pregnancies. Basically if a man and a woman is dating and agree not to use guaranteed contraceptives (then again no contraceptive aside from a vasectomy or getting "the tubes tied" is a hundred percent security) they can file for an agreement stating that if an unexpected pregnancy occurs and the woman somehow decides to keep the baby then she will have relinquished her rights to demand child support from the father.
That way, the woman can still reasonably keep her rights to give birth to the child or not if she wishes, but the man doesn't have to get an unexpected nasty surprise shackle of fatherhood forced upon him by the woman and the law.
The status quo of may countries (perhaps not all, but at least in my country) is completely unfair and should be changed.
I'm sorry, what the fuck did you just say? It's definitely not better to be alive than dead, in many, MANY cases. Neglected children will likely have severe mental and emotional problems and be incredibly disadvantaged in life itself. Most do not make it to college. Neglected children who become parents often neglect their own children.zehydra said:
As for adoption, it's all well and good to think that your child will have a good home, but adoption really isn't that great. The parents basically drop off the kid and if it's lucky it'll get picked up. If not, it could be months or even years before that child is properly adopted. My mother was adopted. She doesn't much care about her ancestry. I'm the next generation. I kind of DO care about my ancestry, but I'll never get to know.
If I were given a choice between being adopted or being aborted, I'd choose abortion. Thank you and have a nice day.
I think it's probably good that opinion is split on the issue.Baby Tea said:
I wouldn't wish anyone to have to carry their rapists baby to term, I can even just about conjur up sympathy for young people with unwanted pregnancies, though I completely understand that is reeks of "me, me, me, I want this!" and not accepting responsibility(1). Your plans aren't important...get over yourself.(people who plan their whole lives out(and think they deserve what they want)rather than just going with the flow, are the worst...but that's another issue).
I don't want to see abortion abolished, and I wish people would keep their judgemental crap to themselves for the most part. But I'm glad it's a contentious issue.
edit:
(1) I wish to clarify, because what I said seems quite cold. I know that mistakes happen, and on a personal level I sympathise.
It's the attitude that bothers me. Sex is about making babies, that's why it exists. We're so narcissistic and self-involved as a species that we make it all about us. We treat sex like a hobby(and I get that, it's nice), but we lose sight of the fact that it's primarily about making babies...and we look stupid when we act like the victim when pregnancy occurs.
We know the consequences, they're well documented. We're just more concerned with our own lifestyle aspirations.
I don't necessarily disagree with abortion, but it's not an easy decision to make.
In an ideal world, we wouldn't need abortion, because people would think about the consequences of sex beforehand, and take the appropriate precautions. You and your girlfriend sound relatively intelligent, so I don't necessarily target that at people like you, but Jeremy Kyle's "guests" are largely made up of people who have had sex, but to hell with the consequence.
Unfortunately, it absolutely is the mother's choice, either to keep it or abort, because SHE is the one who has to either carry it to term, or deal with the guilt of abortion. Unfortunately, I don't think we're educated enough about the implications, in the UK.
I understand that a abortions come about because of rape, disease (Risk of Down's Syndrome) and accidents (condom splitting, etc), but...for the rest who just have unprotected sex for the sake of it, I wish they'd think it through first. If you aren't financially or emotionally capable of supporting a child, then you HAVE to take precautions. Yes, your girlfriend has this implant and, whilst I'm not trying to tell you how to conduct your personal life, these things CAN fail.
I know you said to keep the religious side out, but I'm an Atheist so would have no religious concerns in regards to abortion. If pregnancy occurred at a highly inconvenient time...well, I'm not saying I wouldn't think about it in detail, but I think I'd abort. Of course, you have the whole "the baby is a person, it's not your right to choose", but somebody has to make the decision, either way. Only the mother knows how she feels about it.
In an ideal world, we wouldn't need abortion, because people would think about the consequences of sex beforehand, and take the appropriate precautions. You and your girlfriend sound relatively intelligent, so I don't necessarily target that at people like you, but Jeremy Kyle's "guests" are largely made up of people who have had sex, but to hell with the consequence.
Unfortunately, it absolutely is the mother's choice, either to keep it or abort, because SHE is the one who has to either carry it to term, or deal with the guilt of abortion. Unfortunately, I don't think we're educated enough about the implications, in the UK.
I understand that a abortions come about because of rape, disease (Risk of Down's Syndrome) and accidents (condom splitting, etc), but...for the rest who just have unprotected sex for the sake of it, I wish they'd think it through first. If you aren't financially or emotionally capable of supporting a child, then you HAVE to take precautions. Yes, your girlfriend has this implant and, whilst I'm not trying to tell you how to conduct your personal life, these things CAN fail.
I know you said to keep the religious side out, but I'm an Atheist so would have no religious concerns in regards to abortion. If pregnancy occurred at a highly inconvenient time...well, I'm not saying I wouldn't think about it in detail, but I think I'd abort. Of course, you have the whole "the baby is a person, it's not your right to choose", but somebody has to make the decision, either way. Only the mother knows how she feels about it.
Well, maybe. I mean, do you remember what it was like before you were alive? I don't. Maybe it wasn't so bad.zehydra said:
Also, it may be better for the unborn child if it's allowed to live, but we already-alive people need to think about how that child will affect its environment. Somehow, I doubt that many of the children born to parents who either aren't there or view them as an unwanted burden are going to grow up to become doctors, scientists, and humanitarians.
OT: My view on abortion is that we should stop thinking about it.
Abortion is a terrible thing. I personally feel that it's the lesser of two evils in certain situations when a child is conceived but not wanted, and that it's a valuable medical procedure for situations in which complications during pregnancy will result in the death of the mother, the child, or both.
That said, pro-lifers are taking the wrong position on this issue, because they're trying to 'cure' abortion as if it were a social ill. It's not. It's the symptom, not the disease.
The disease is a lack of personal responsibility regarding reproductive activities; having unprotected sex, not using birth control effectively, and having reckless sex with people you don't really care about.
This problem is compounded by abstinence-only sex education programs, a lack of availability of birth-control systems to young people, and an unwillingness of parents to have frank discussions about sex with their children and provide their children with appropriate protection and alternate outlets for their sexual urges.
There's a prevailing sentiment in the United States (and other countries as well) that sex is dirty and sinful and we shouldn't talk about it. In a way similar to other social problems like drug abuse, prostitution, and airport security, enacting laws to stop abortion isn't going to solve the problem of unwanted pregnancy. It just means that abortions will, from then on, be performed by criminals in dark alleyways armed with coathangers instead of licensed physicians in clean examination rooms.
Obviously, thinking that people just shouldn't have sex unless they're married, so things like birth control and proper sexual education aren't necessary, has not resolved the problem. Maybe we should give young people more access to information about sex and birth control instead of trying to browbeat them into alignment with a dubious ideology.
I love how most anti-choicers don't actually give a fuck once the kids been born. It might have an absolutely horrible life, and it's birth may well have ruined the parents lives (probably the mothers, mostly) too, but hey at least it's alive, right?zehydra said:
Just what kind of point are you trying to make here? Are you basically saying that because we're unmarried our relationship can't be committed? If so you're an idiot. We're 22 dumbass, there's a huge gap between being in a casual relationship and marriage.BlueAnubis said:
Mail order brides cost more. And the reason he got married is because his religion dictated he couldn't have sex unless he did. It defies human nature, and is unhealthy.BlueAnubis said:
I'm getting the strong indication that you yourself might be a christian who thinks sex outside of marriage and abortions are "evil"... if this is the line of argument you aim to pursue, I'm just going to warn you now not to waste your keystrokes. I'm not interested.
I'm finding this thread utterly fascinating. As someone who isn't sexually active (nor have I ever been), this just isn't something I've had experience with, or really been exposed to up front. Though I would consider myself pro-choice, its nice to hear both sides without getting into too much of a shouting match. I guess the only thing I can disagree with is that sex is a fundamental part of living, I've done just fine without it. In any case, this is all alot for me to think about.
That's not true. Me and my girlfriend have had a condom break through no misuse and no mistreatment of it; it had been kept in a paper bag in my drawer and had no stresses on it whatsoever.s0m3th1ng said:
Yes, they are a statistical anomaly by definition of happening less than 50% of the time. However, condom manufacturers are not in any way liable for defects. That's why they put the warnings on the box. In the UK, it's been impossible to sue a condom company for a broken condom since the 70's.s0m3th1ng said:
Read my original post for an answer to this question...s0m3th1ng said:
By this I meant "do you think their INTERESTS are underrepresented in the financial aftermath." But yes, I agree... men can be seriously and cripplingly screwed over by the system for what in most cases is no-one's fault and in some might even be the woman's. I think something needs to change to make the system fairer.Housebroken Lunatic said:
That's probably wise. Too bad they don't have the same decency. But it's hard to have that kind of discussion. The catholic church has been the main opposition to a mother's right to choose.Mandalore_15 said:
I totally agree that a man can be equally attached to a child (emotionally that is) and work just as hard raising the child but men don't have to go through all the physical changes, chemical imbalances(speaking of emotions), or the breast feeding. There's no extra surgery needed, you don't have to carry around pounds and pounds of extra flesh and fluids, you don't have to face all the possible medical complications that sometimes arise.
Trust me, when it comes to making babies, the guy has the easy job.
I'm not in any way saying the father isn't important. The father has every right to make his opinion heard (when it comes to HIS baby that is) and the mother should listen and take his concerns seriously but I'm afraid I would have to give ultimate veto power to the mother.
I'm not saying bad things don't happen in one-in-a-million cases. People get millions of dollars awarded in medical malpractice suits for a reason. When doctors screw up, they screw up big time and ruin lives forever. They chop off the wrong limbs, leave scissors inside patients, shrug off symptoms that turn out to be fatal.Ragsnstitches said:
I don't know your aunt, and I believe you when you said you didn't ask for specifics, so please understand this is just conjecture. If your aunt is old enough, it's possible (just possible, I'm not suggesting this is the case) that she didn't have her abortion in a hospital.
If that were the case (again, I'm not suggesting it actually is) then she should consider herself one of the lucky ones. When abortion was illegal, women underwent wildly unsafe procedures, either inflicted on them by doctors, or by people who said they were doctors, or at their own hands. And they would die.
For as long as women have been getting pregnant, they have been terminating those pregnancies. For a variety of reasons, reasons good and bad. You can think whatever you like about those reasons and the act itself, if you must.
But when abortion is not legal, women die. There is more then one life at stake. If you would sacrifice the woman to save the fetus, then what are women but walking incubators?
I a) value life in quality, not quantity, b) feel that as childbirth is one of the most painful things a human being can go through, forcing someone to experience whne they don't wish to is an abuse of their human rights, c) don't feel that a human isn't a person until they're born and d) people should be able to make their own choices on issues like this without the interfearence of religion or unnesesary laws. As you can probably guess, this makes me very pro-choice on the issue.
I believe that the woman in question is the only one who's opinions on the issue matter (and possibly her doctor, but solely for medical reasons, not the doc's ethicial beliefs). I do however think that a man should have the right deny responsibility for raising/supporting a child by imforming the woman they he has no interest in a child while it's still in an abortable state (thus making it the woman's choice to raise the kid on her own or have it aborted). This would have to be done in an official legal document in order to count, so that men can't abuse this rule.
I believe that the woman in question is the only one who's opinions on the issue matter (and possibly her doctor, but solely for medical reasons, not the doc's ethicial beliefs). I do however think that a man should have the right deny responsibility for raising/supporting a child by imforming the woman they he has no interest in a child while it's still in an abortable state (thus making it the woman's choice to raise the kid on her own or have it aborted). This would have to be done in an official legal document in order to count, so that men can't abuse this rule.
Fair enough if no protection is used, but no contraceptive is 100 percent efficient, even if combined with another, and you cant honestly tell people not to have sex, its a basic human urge and right.Baby Tea said:
Also, if you abort legally, within the set time, its not human life, we define someone has died when the brain ceases to fuction, therefore if it hasnt started to function it is not human, nor capable of surviving outside the womb, and it has the same potential for life than any other of the billions of egg or sperm cells thrown away every day by use of condom or pill, why should we insist we make it a baby if the others dont have to be.
Lastly, I for one would prefer a couple who were planning to have kids to have it when they are good and ready, to give the child as good as a life as possible, its the parants lives which could also be ruined if they are forced to have a baby too early, teenage years and such. I would prefer life to be in as high quality as possible than quantity, and if the child born would grow up in a broken home, around drug abusers, with a terrible disease like aids or horribly disfigured, i think it may have been better to never exist than a forced existance.
As quite a few posters have brought up in this thread, the decision of abortion/no abortion needs to be made by the individual, and not imposed on them by the state, religious groups, or anyone else. There are risks (medical and psychological) involved in both abortion and pregnancy, and the fact is that the pregnancy is taking place in the woman's body - thats why the final decision, by way of nature, is hers.
OP - It is quite understandable that you feel anxious about this situation. Obviously, now that this thing in the media raised awareness, you and your GF are a lot more informed about the implants and will start using condoms as well. Although as a woman I would feel slightly peeved at having to go through the discomfort and side effects of having implants only to end up using condoms anyway! But better safe than sorry I suppose, since condoms alone are not 100%. Maximum respect to you for standing by your gf if it were to happen though!
For those of you in the UK who would not do the same, if the couple aren't married and the father is not present when registering the birth, the father does not go down on the child's birth certificate and therefore does not have Parental Responsibility. Parental responsibility encompases such things as ensuring the child gets enrolled in education, providing a home, protecting them, having contact with them etc. If you don't have parental responsibility, I'm pretty (but not 100%) sure that you don't have to pay maintenance.
Furthermore, slightly off-topic, the idea that having a baby RUINS YOUR LIFE for either the mother or the father (or both) is not true for every single unplanned pregnancy. I have a six year old son who was unplanned, but I was able to complete my university degree course and go on to have a full-time job. Both me and my bf have maintained healthy social lives by taking turns going out while the other looks after our son. If we want to go out together - babysitter. We have not become financially ruined by a long shot, we both work and working parents are entitled to tax credits which help out (though the ConDem government will probably axe that soon as well...).
OP - It is quite understandable that you feel anxious about this situation. Obviously, now that this thing in the media raised awareness, you and your GF are a lot more informed about the implants and will start using condoms as well. Although as a woman I would feel slightly peeved at having to go through the discomfort and side effects of having implants only to end up using condoms anyway! But better safe than sorry I suppose, since condoms alone are not 100%. Maximum respect to you for standing by your gf if it were to happen though!
For those of you in the UK who would not do the same, if the couple aren't married and the father is not present when registering the birth, the father does not go down on the child's birth certificate and therefore does not have Parental Responsibility. Parental responsibility encompases such things as ensuring the child gets enrolled in education, providing a home, protecting them, having contact with them etc. If you don't have parental responsibility, I'm pretty (but not 100%) sure that you don't have to pay maintenance.
Furthermore, slightly off-topic, the idea that having a baby RUINS YOUR LIFE for either the mother or the father (or both) is not true for every single unplanned pregnancy. I have a six year old son who was unplanned, but I was able to complete my university degree course and go on to have a full-time job. Both me and my bf have maintained healthy social lives by taking turns going out while the other looks after our son. If we want to go out together - babysitter. We have not become financially ruined by a long shot, we both work and working parents are entitled to tax credits which help out (though the ConDem government will probably axe that soon as well...).
Alright, I'll alleviate your suspicions. I am a Christian, and I suppose I was combative in my replies. I'll say this and leave. I do not think sex outside of marriage and abortions are evil, I just think they are the wrong choice. Like choosing which way to go to get to a theme park. You have the directions on how to get there, but you choose not to follow them. You may find out how to get there on your own, but the odds are, you will run out of gas and find out that you are somewhere you don't want to be.Mandalore_15 said:
Something to think about.
Farewell.