Poll: African American Vernacular English
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This isn't about race, it is about the dialect and people's perceptions of it. I am trying to keep race out of it as much as possible so we can have a reasonable discussion. If people start coming into the thread and shouting racism it won't help it at all. Also, it isn't a question of can or cannot, this is a well defined dialect that absolutely exists.Kenshuku said:
Seems to me that you should forget this whole American English thing full stop and go back to ENGLISH English. The true English language. As far as i'm concerned American English doesnt count. At all.Ever
That seems like kind of a bigoted position. All languages evolve, most branch out into different dialects, whether they be regional or what have you. Trying to say otherwise psints you as quite ignorant of progress or the true nature of language.EMFCRACKSHOT said:
It's got its own jargon, slang, accent, and is characteristic of a certain group of people. Of course it's a dialect.
þú gewixlest séo ágenspræc, ne mec.Amnestic said:
I would have used "Ebonics", but I was not aware of the potential racial overtones that word has. Some people take it the wrong way, I just wanted to stay on the safe side.Flap Jack452 said:
Why not?
I mean for hundreds of years African Americans were segregated from the rest of the population, a unique dialect will inevitably form.
But because it is such a rare dialect (way less than 20% of the population of USA) then it would give children too much of a disadvantage to teach them in AAV as it would severely limit their employment prospects if they can't communicate properly with the majority of the rest of the country. You have to realise, school is not about making things easier for kids now, but making it easier for them when they are adults.
I mean come on guys, do you think a young black kid is born and learn to speak like David Letterman from their mother yet somehow later in life they just "get lazy" and "resort to slang"?
It may be slang for typical white families but you have to consider for many African Americans this is the way there learned to speak English, this is they only dialect they know.
It is NOT slang.
Slang is something that goes on top of an existing dialect that someone uses, like I speak British English but I can also resort to "l33t speak".
But if all I knew was leet speak then that would qualify it as a dialect or vernacular.
I think the important thing is to just face up to the fact that Black-vernacular DOES exist and for thousands if not millions of people that is all they know or all they are confident with. The issue of whether to nurture it, modify it or eliminate it through education is a much wider debate that covers issues of "what is best for the kids".
I mean for hundreds of years African Americans were segregated from the rest of the population, a unique dialect will inevitably form.
But because it is such a rare dialect (way less than 20% of the population of USA) then it would give children too much of a disadvantage to teach them in AAV as it would severely limit their employment prospects if they can't communicate properly with the majority of the rest of the country. You have to realise, school is not about making things easier for kids now, but making it easier for them when they are adults.
I mean come on guys, do you think a young black kid is born and learn to speak like David Letterman from their mother yet somehow later in life they just "get lazy" and "resort to slang"?
It may be slang for typical white families but you have to consider for many African Americans this is the way there learned to speak English, this is they only dialect they know.
It is NOT slang.
Slang is something that goes on top of an existing dialect that someone uses, like I speak British English but I can also resort to "l33t speak".
But if all I knew was leet speak then that would qualify it as a dialect or vernacular.
I think the important thing is to just face up to the fact that Black-vernacular DOES exist and for thousands if not millions of people that is all they know or all they are confident with. The issue of whether to nurture it, modify it or eliminate it through education is a much wider debate that covers issues of "what is best for the kids".
It doesn't bother me, because it's no different than any other dialectical nuance. Its existence is no better or worse than the difference between British English and American English (much less South African English).
Teaching it in schools is a bit more iffy, since it would lead to a bifurcation of class time, or of classrooms, leading to the whole "segregation" snafu. I wouldn't outlaw it, but I would teach English as being the language to use in public.
Instead of moving toward pretentiousness, let's take a breath and ask whether there might actually be structure, agreement, and pronunciation in AAVE that simply doesn't happen to match what we expect from traditional English.
Teaching it in schools is a bit more iffy, since it would lead to a bifurcation of class time, or of classrooms, leading to the whole "segregation" snafu. I wouldn't outlaw it, but I would teach English as being the language to use in public.
Isn't that true of any other language, as well? Seriously, if all I speak is French, I can't apply for loans or jobs in America on the same basis. Why not treat it as (fundamentally) a foreign language?generic gamer said:
Define proper, if you'd be so kind. I'm a fairly well-read, and well-spoken man, and even I can't "properly" identify proper sentence structure, pronunciation, or subject/verb agreement all of the time. Do you use the Oxford comma, or not? Should we allow sentences ending in prepositions? Is it pronounced "air-you-dite" or "air-oo-dite" for erudite? That's not even getting into how most everyone misuses many words.Godavari said:
Instead of moving toward pretentiousness, let's take a breath and ask whether there might actually be structure, agreement, and pronunciation in AAVE that simply doesn't happen to match what we expect from traditional English.
If we're trying to become more racially tolerant, I figure people would be trying to stay away from things like these. Soon, they'll have people learning clicks, grunts, squeals and howls to communicate. The food line will be a termite mound we have to probe with sticks to pull out tiny morsels.
BTW, I'm totally against the term "Porch Monkey". My grandma used to call me that and I just found out what it means. [/joke]
BTW, I'm totally against the term "Porch Monkey". My grandma used to call me that and I just found out what it means. [/joke]