Poll: American?s disillusion with WW2

[chinomareno]

The Atom bomb was not even a real strategic weapon at that point, conventional bombing was so effective most of the country was in ruins. The US sub fleet choked the life out of Japan's merchant navy and blockaded Japan trapping the main army on the mainland. The country had no choice but to surrender and even then it was arguably more in fear of being occupied by the Soviets.

The Atom bomb was powerful enough to destroy a town but so was Airforce, not until the hydrogen bomb did is become ridiculous.

 

[Patrick Dare]

I'm not going to read all these posts so sorry if this has been mentioned before but the Russian Army actually did more to stop the Germans than probably the Brits, Canadians, French and Americans combined but you never hear about that because of the red scare.

 

[Fran108]

This is something almost no one knows that the Mexican air force was vital in the fight for the pacific even-though the country remained neutral. With out the Mexican pilots some events of the war might have changed. The pilots were even nicked-named " The Aztec Eagles " by British and American troops. So yes I don't think people give all the credit due.

 

[Hellz_Barz]

My grandpa served in the Australian army in papua new guinea and he always made sure i knew that if the Americans weren't there in the pacific we'd be speaking Japanese right now. Fight as good as we did without the American numbers to spread the Japanese out, we would have been over run.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

Let me point a few things out that have probably been mentioned by this point. I'm too lazy to slog through all this.
-the only reason the Brits didn't get overrun by the Nazis was because of the lend lease program.

You mean apart from their own commonwealth coming together to muster forces with them? Apart from their own airforce crippling the Luftwaffe or the Home Fleet cockblocking any invasion attempt across the channel? When Lend-Lease finally went into effect, in mid-1941 the Battle of Britain was already over and the immediate threat of Germany invading the UK had passed. The battle of the Atlantic was still undecided, but Lend-Lease did nothing for the UK during the time when things looked really grim. Lend-Lease was important, but only to help speed up the rate at which the Commonwealth could take the initiative. It had already survived the trial of fire that was the Battle of Britain.

-the french resistance was supported and supplied by the OSS.

And the Soviet Union and the OSE. Your point is? The "French Resistance" was more akin to many independent groups consisting of liberals, communists, syndicalists and nationalists to mention a few political groups. All of them had their own agenda and many of them (the communists in particular) did not recieve any aid from the western allies.

-France has never won a war with Germany since napoleon.

You mean apart from World War 1, obviously. You know, the second biggest war in history.

-also everyone seems to forget what the Japanese were doing this whole time. that's right they were a little distracted with their war with the United States. If they weren't they probably would have been helping out their buddies in Germany.

You seem to forget that Japan was 'distracted' with trying to subdue China from Autumn 1937 all the way up until 1945. The majority of Japan's resources was not devoted to fighting the USA (And the UK, Australia and the rest of the commonwealth) in the pacific islands but was tied up in the bloodbath that was China. In fact, the biggest Japanese Army during World War 2 was stationed in Manchukoko (modern day northeastern China) and Korea in case the Soviet Union would decide to attack from the North. The biggest amount of soldiers was stuck in China and between Burma, Malaysia and the Dutch East Indies you had far more soldiers then in the islands that the USA captured. Sure, the USA certainly crippled the IJN but the IJA was brought to its' knees by the Commonwealth and China. Either way, there was no way that the Japanese could have "helped Germany" as they were too busy trying to realize their own vision of a pan-asian Japanese Empire.

Basically without the United states involvement Europe would have fallen and Russia would not have been able to win a 2 front war with Germany and Japan (that probably would have ended with a stalemate however as Russia is just to damn big to conquer easily). Of course I am taking into account aid the United states gave to the allies before they got involved.

Basically, you choose to use anectodal evidence, cherry-picked evidence and just plain disregard for the geo-political situation at the time to reach this conclusion. I'm sorry, but you've overplayed the USA's significane in the second World War. That's not to say that the USA wasn't one of the major contributors to the war effort on the Allied side, but by no means was it the saviour of the free world. In the end, the USA contributed signficantly but there is no evidence to suggest that they 'saved the situation'.

 

[TwitchierGuitar]

Now it?s a common fact that the American army came to aid the allied forces engaged across Europe.
However Americans believed this meant they single handily turned the tide of the war and ?won it?.

How much do you think Americans are bias about their engagement in World War 2?

Personally being English I feel their involvement was instrumental in ending the war a lot quicker but I think the true praise belongs to British and Canadians, but more so the French, those who faught the war from the bloody begining to the bloody end. Their country is a living memento to the fallen, all over and I mean all over France you can find graveyards and a memorials to all the men whom fought and died in that horrendous war.

I appologise for posting within the incorrect threat catagorey

I'm not here to argue, Sir Wanks-a-lot. I'm just here to fully explain a few things for you to think about before going to the internet to talk about something... Am I saying USA=#1? Good god, no. But niether is Britain, france, or Canada.
Just for the record, I think it was a team effort though, minus the French...
P.S. PURE BLOOD AMERICAN (Que Hate posts... I know these are coming...)
Let's Start The List!!!

1- Too many people in other countries say the same thing about us and our actions...
"We ALL put everyone's resources together and came out on top..."

2- We didn't start anything... We just finished it... Then we got tied into this and that...

3- We helped france get German occupancy out...

4- Canada sucks to begin with... Went to Quebec and Toronto for a week a piece, Minded my own buissness, and got cursed out by twelve different people when I was just sitting under a tree in the middle of nowhere... And that was just Toronto. Don't get me started on Quebec...

5- Try looking this one up, PEARL HARBOR Dec. 7, 1941... All of those men who died were minding their own buissness, too... Hell, I lost my grandmother and grandfather to that war... My grandmother was a Corpsman on the same ship as my grandfather, a Naval technicain in the navy from 1935 to 1941... Not to mention three great uncles on the shores of Omaha, Germany...

and finally, 6- WE ALL KICKED THE AXIS POWERS' ASSESS!!! Cheers all around...

So can we all please get over this pissing contest?

 

[thejboy88]

As for as I am concerned, it was a group effort. The armies of Nazi Germany were, at the time, too powerful for any one of the other great powers of the era to stand against. If America had gone in alone to fight them, they would have lost. If the Soviets had gone in alone to fight them, they would have lost. If my country the UK or France had gone in to fight them, either alone or even together, we certainly would have lost. Nazi Germany was through its military the most powerful nation on Earth. As such, it took all of us fighting together to beat them. As for them "American dillusion" about beating them themselves, that seems to me to be simply them involving themselve in Europe at the right time. Essentially, they were reinforcements for an already allied effort to hold the nazis back.

Sorry if anyone disagrees with me, no offence intended.

 

[pro1337tariat]

As a American myself (que impending hate after this post), I think we were monumental to the success of the Allied Operations. I think it is for reasons that many overlook or simply don't know about.

Before we entered the war, we through the lend-lease act provided arms and raw materials to our both the British and eventually the Soviets. Someone earlier mentioned the victories of the British in North Africa; compared to the Panzer IV, the British Crusader and Matilda tanks weren't exactly all that great. Hell, even the Shermans we supplied to British before the second battle of El-Almein (turning point in North Africa) had a hard time standing up to them. But they needed one heavy tank supplied to them if they wanted to turn Rommel around. The Russians recieved quite a bit in both raw materials and weapons from us as well, as well as some 50 odd destroyers that were useful in the battle for the Atlantic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease.

The other part that is often overlooked is the Naval Component; from 1940-1941 it was called the "Happy Time" for German U-Boats because of all the havoc they caused. Admiral Karl Donitz of the German Navy started using what was called "wolfpacking" for taking out conveys, which proved to be a highly successful method of commerce raiding for the Germans; by the time the US entered the war the oil levels in Great Britain had reached a critically low point. While the Royal Navy was doing its best to clamp down on it, it simply wasn't big enough to all the German's subs (neither was our own Navy, so it required the both of us), and without raw materials being shipped to the British isles I doubt they could have held out.


Theres more but I am to tired to remember them, so I'll end with this; I in no way trying to downplay the roles of the other Allied Powers during the second World War; we needed you as much as you need us.

TL;DR: You kicked ass, we kicked ass, lets do that again sometime.

 

[fo shneezy]

ok, honestly people, each country involved with the war helped in a certain way, and now the good guys won etc. The war has been over for more than 60 years, and alot of people died, cant we just drop the subject?

 

[TwitchierGuitar]

This is something almost no one knows that the Mexican air force was vital in the fight for the pacific even-though the country remained neutral. With out the Mexican pilots some events of the war might have changed. The pilots were even nicked-named " The Aztec Eagles " by British and American troops. So yes I don't think people give all the credit due.

Yeah... I did a report on these guys... Roughly three hundred mexicans to over a million of the other nationalities Mexico sends in support, Stalin, Churchill, and truman all looked at a tiny support group compared to the allied forces' war machine, and laughed. Quite frankly, I did, too as soon as I heard those numbers... And I even Laughed during the presentation... My teacher, who made me do this project, was mexican... I laughed right in his face... I got an F on the project...

 

[BlueberryMUNCH]

Now it?s a common fact that the American army came to aid the allied forces engaged across Europe.
However Americans believed this meant they single handily turned the tide of the war and ?won it?.

How much do you think Americans are bias about their engagement in World War 2?

Personally being English I feel their involvement was instrumental in ending the war a lot quicker but I think the true praise belongs to British and Canadians, but more so the French, those who faught the war from the bloody begining to the bloody end. Their country is a living memento to the fallen, all over and I mean all over France you can find graveyards and a memorials to all the men whom fought and died in that horrendous war.

I appologise for posting within the incorrect threat catagorey

Hrr, Im British myself and believe me, I know exactly what you are talking about...but I seriously suggest you stick 'some Americans', because put it simply, not all Americans think that, just the simple minded few.

I'm American, and in response (I live in Northern California for the record)

It's the simple-minded MANY
not the simple minded few

but yes I agree that it shouldn't be so sweeping and generalizing

...Oh jeez, right, fair enough then:/!
Mkay that kinda hits a nerve in that case, I mean, I know the British didn't single handedly win the war...

So what, is that the way you guys get taught at school? :/.

 

[Judgedread]

Not to sound like a pompous American here, but without the US, I feel Germany would have won.

Honestly, Britain was going down. You guys survived to the bloody end and whatnot, but were not fairing to well, and without American industrial production and support, Britain wouldn't have had the war machines to fight with.

It's just a shame that being the isolationist country America was back then it took the bombing of Pearl Harbor to convince them to join the war. It is not an uncommon view that Churchill knew about the plans to bomb Pearl Harbor however, did nothing about it, as if the harbor had not been bombed America would have sat back and let Brittan fall.

It is true that without Americas support the war on the European front would have turned out much differently however, I do believe that the Soviets would have eventually beaten the Germans in the end. Had that happened the world we live in now would be a very fundamentally different place.

Actually, the U.S. only joined when Hitler declared war on it after Japan's bombings. The U.S. did not initially declare war. It was Hitler who directly brought it into the war.

Wrong, the US declared war on December 7, 1941 when the Japanese attacked attacked, I'm not sure on the date when Hitler declared war on the US however, it was a few days after that, in response.

Well, yes. Germany declared war after. The U.S. obviously declared war on Japan, but not on Germany.

Yes, but my point is, Hitler wouldn't have declared war at that point in time if the US had not declared war on Japan. At the same time I'm sure that the US knew that when they declared war on Japan it would also be with that Nazis as well. If you declare war on one country in a war, you are also declaring war on the other countries in that alliance.

 

[Sovvolf]

Why in the world do you think that misconception is carried by the majority?

I don't nor did I say that. I don't believe that that this is carried by the majority. I feel that it is carried by the minority that only know war from hollywood movies. Though I guess you caught a little typo which I noticed last night. Had a little too much wiskey last night and I stated:

That being said, most of these Americans that scream "We won the war, without us you'd be speaking German" are more then likely the dim witted but louder majority

which should have read "dim witted but louder minority"

As others have said I know no American that carries such a perception of the war. From my parents generation to present.

To quote my last post.

and probably don't represent the more quite learned American.

To me you are unjustly slapping the messages of skewed media on us as judgment.

What? Did you even read my post. I made a point to point out that those loud mouth idiots that do plague the media and believe that shit aren't part of the learned Americans that don't.

What some movies and books said in the old days is not what most people think now. We're taught that everyone who participated towards the allies goal helped with the end result.
To respect everyone's sacrifice.

And again, as I stated. The more learned American doesn't share the misconceptions of the dim witted loud mouths. Some payed attention during class... Others payed attention only to dads rambling of what he'd have learned during the cold war era at school where they would have be plagued with propaganda.

 

[Daystar Clarion]

Just bring up Vietnam. That usually shuts them up.

1. Define "loss." I just looked it up, and the war between North and South Vietnam in which the US supplied aid to the Southended with a ceasefire, which was the ultimate goal anyway.
2. The US involvement in Vietnam was a single downhill portion of the Cold War overall, in which the Capitalist West came out on top. One may surmise that the Cold War isn't ENTIRELY over, but if it is then it was won by the West despite Vietnam.

Before you mention the Korean War, that wasn't even the US. That was the United Nations, which made use of US troops. Once again, this cannot be called a loss because it ended in ceasefire instead of North Korean conquest.

Funny how Yahtzee mentioned these wars as America's shame, and funny how he and the world and even our own citizens don't remember more about history than the five-minute blurbs we hear in class.

If you noticed, 'loss' never came up in my post. I was referring to the moral implications of the Vietnam war.

 

[Daystar Clarion]

Now it?s a common fact that the American army came to aid the allied forces engaged across Europe.
However Americans believed this meant they single handily turned the tide of the war and ?won it?.

How much do you think Americans are bias about their engagement in World War 2?

Personally being English I feel their involvement was instrumental in ending the war a lot quicker but I think the true praise belongs to British and Canadians, but more so the French, those who faught the war from the bloody begining to the bloody end. Their country is a living memento to the fallen, all over and I mean all over France you can find graveyards and a memorials to all the men whom fought and died in that horrendous war.

I appologise for posting within the incorrect threat catagorey

I'm not here to argue, Sir Wanks-a-lot. I'm just here to fully explain a few things for you to think about before going to the internet to talk about something... Am I saying USA=#1? Good god, no. But niether is Britain, france, or Canada.
Just for the record, I think it was a team effort though, minus the French...
P.S. PURE BLOOD AMERICAN (Que Hate posts... I know these are coming...)
Let's Start The List!!!

1- Too many people in other countries say the same thing about us and our actions...
"We ALL put everyone's resources together and came out on top..."

2- We didn't start anything... We just finished it... Then we got tied into this and that...

3- We helped france get German occupancy out...

4- Canada sucks to begin with... Went to Quebec and Toronto for a week a piece, Minded my own buissness, and got cursed out by twelve different people when I was just sitting under a tree in the middle of nowhere... And that was just Toronto. Don't get me started on Quebec...

5- Try looking this one up, PEARL HARBOR Dec. 7, 1941... All of those men who died were minding their own buissness, too... Hell, I lost my grandmother and grandfather to that war... My grandmother was a Corpsman on the same ship as my grandfather, a Naval technicain in the navy from 1935 to 1941... Not to mention three great uncles on the shores of Omaha, Germany...

and finally, 6- WE ALL KICKED THE AXIS POWERS' ASSESS!!! Cheers all around...

So can we all please get over this pissing contest?

No such thing as a 'pure' blood American, just saying. In an another 300 years maybe.

 

[Warforger]

Thats because they had shit generals for having such a high casualty count, Zhukov was almost as ruthless as Stalin because he didn't give a shit how many people died, and the Southern general was looked down upon because he didn't advance as far as Zhukov did, even though he was trying to save lives. It was Stalin's fault for executing his best commanders right before WWII and replacing them with these inexperienced ones, so I doubt they really should be given such credit.

This is comparable to Conrad the commander of the Austrian army in WWI, he had great plans which didn't think of the terrain and he wasted so many lives that he crippled the Austrian military and let the Germans take even more credit for saving their ass. Coincidentally he was a brilliant general to some aspiring Soviet commanders, funny how things turned out.

I was going more along the lines that given the enormous human sacrifice of the Soviets during the Great Patriotic War, it's simply disrespectful not to give them a decent chunk of the credit for the war ending when it did, with the outcome we wished for.

While you can say the leadership was poor, and I'm hardly arguing, they did what they did with the tools available. In this case that meant thousands of soldiers with little training and in some cases not enough firearms to go around. Perhaps the mos viable tactic was to throw men at a problem until it dissolved....not ideal perhaps but ultimately effective.

Also, your name is quite ironic given the first part of your post, unless I misunderstood it.

Stalin thought of a great plan to motivate his generals, he took two of his best and gave them command of two armies, one to the north and one to the south, the idea was that this will motivate them to get to Berlin faster thus ending the war quicker the Northern one was Zhukov, he wasted lives when he didn't have too, the one to the South tried to save them and he still advanced, but not as fast as Zhukov, and when the war was over he was shunned. This showed they could've saved lives but Zhukov didn't give a shit.

My point is that given the situation, Stalin could've saved many more lives and won the war faster if he didn't cripple the leadership so much, he learned from his mistakes but that doesn't excuse him from making them anyway, but victory was inevitable considering how much the Germans had to spread themselves thin, so they didn't need to do much. Stalin did do great things which prevented his country from being entirely conquered and incapable of war, mainly rapidly industrializing during the 30's creating the production capability they had.

 

[Double A]

Assuming all Americans think the same?

Nice.

You're right, though. You still might have won, but so many things could have happened. Hell, if Hitler actually listened to his generals more often, the Allies still might have lost.

Scary to think what could have happend if Rommel was in charge.

Was? Ich weiß nicht.

 

[WOPR]

Now it?s a common fact that the American army came to aid the allied forces engaged across Europe.
However Americans believed this meant they single handily turned the tide of the war and ?won it?.

How much do you think Americans are bias about their engagement in World War 2?

Personally being English I feel their involvement was instrumental in ending the war a lot quicker but I think the true praise belongs to British and Canadians, but more so the French, those who faught the war from the bloody begining to the bloody end. Their country is a living memento to the fallen, all over and I mean all over France you can find graveyards and a memorials to all the men whom fought and died in that horrendous war.

I appologise for posting within the incorrect threat catagorey

Hrr, Im British myself and believe me, I know exactly what you are talking about...but I seriously suggest you stick 'some Americans', because put it simply, not all Americans think that, just the simple minded few.

I'm American, and in response (I live in Northern California for the record)

It's the simple-minded MANY
not the simple minded few

but yes I agree that it shouldn't be so sweeping and generalizing

...Oh jeez, right, fair enough then:/!
Mkay that kinda hits a nerve in that case, I mean, I know the British didn't single handedly win the war...

So what, is that the way you guys get taught at school? :/.

Pretty much this is what they teach us

Germany was winning (dominating)
America came in
America owned and saved everyone single-handedly

the only thing we debate is the bomb(s)

...I actually do a lot of research and hate history for that exact reason... they never show anything where we're the "bad guys"

 

[BleedingPride]

Before i start, I am an American. Now thats over with theres something you need to understand: World War 2 was essentially the last war that was morally correct to be in. If you think of the vietnam war you think WHAT THE FUCK WERE WE THINKING?? When you think of Hitler you think of 6 million Jews that were killed, and that needed to be stopped. The rest of the wars (vietnam and iraq especially) were born out of paranoia. paranoia for communists at first with vietnam after the cold war, and with Iraq after 9/11 Iraq was a fucking mistake i mean they had nothing to do with 9/11 and the only reason that there may have been terrorists there is because WE were there blowing up their country. So basically I totally agree with the original thread, our government and the idiots in control of the media are essentially not allowed to talk about anything else because it just plain makes them look bad... stupid fucks.

Really? Really?? Listen, I don't agree with our country about 75% of the time, but at least I'm informed about such topics. I think you might want to do some research before making such bold comments. I think you're listening a little too much to this government controlled media.

OT: Please do not let this quoted post cement your feelings on Americans.

1st i noticed my spelling error and made the edit accordingly. 2nd im not an idiot, its just my opinion that our country is a little too focused on WWII. 3rd I was merely stating that given certain events in the past fear is a major and unfortunate part of our media. You ever hear the term "if it bleeds, it leads"? 4th Bit of a strong reaction don't you think? I was only giving an opinion

I just was observing that your facts are all wrong and I felt that this was directly correlated to you agreeing with OP. I didn't even realize you had misspelled, I don't believe you're an idiot (just misinformed), and because wars tend to be big news stories, I don't think it fits why you feel the media covers them.

Also, when one bases an opinion on false information, I don't feel I gave too much of a strong reaction.

Fair enough but when I say spelling mistake i mean misplacement of words. Including putting 9/11 and vietnam together (idk how the hell that happened) clearly the two are far apart and I am not terribly misinformed. I more meant to put the two of them seperately but one thing lead to another and etc. I am not as misinformed as you think, I'm merely typing too fast. But ones entitled to their own opinion and I have no further discussion on the matter now that's been cleared up.

 

[astrav1]

Of course we helped but by no means did we win it.