Poll: (Another) feminism discussion

[Abomination]

Every single fucking female character ever either being ridiculously sexualized and/or kidnapped? Yeah, yeah... that's a problem.

But... not every single female character is ridiculously sexualized and/or kidnapped...

So there's no problem! Hooray! We solved gender equality in games!

Thanks for displaying that the problem is still there, and that you're a part of it.

You're going to have to explain how I am the cause for women being either sexualized or kidnapped in games.

"part of the problem" get real.

 

[wulf3n]

Not being a popular talking point doesn't necessarily mean that people don't care. I think you're drawing completely the wrong conclusions there. I would argue the simple fact that racism is far less blatant and commonplace in the industry today as reason for why it's not talked about as much as sexism.

Is it less commonplace?

Ethnic Minorities are still the default fodder for Modern Military Shooters among other Genres.
What about simple stereo types such as the Cole Train[Gears of War] and Letitia[Deus Ex]

We also have a base instinct to serve the in-group at the expense of the out-group (protects the tribe/our genes), and racism is a natural extension of that.

So is targeting a specific demographic but we don't consider that inherently bad.

Fourthly, what comes off as extremist? Calling something you perceive to be sexist 'sexist'? I understand your concern, but I think it's a big step backwards not to call a duck a duck just because there are people that aggressively disagree. Those people will always exist, but have to be overcome if you want any kind of progress on the issue.

I think it's closer to calling all ducks birds. Sure it's technically true, but it comes with other connotations.

 

[Ratties]

I am getting so sick of seeing these threads. "Why did you respond to it." Because I feel the need to do it on everyone one now. Like putting out nag fires with the hose of "please talk about anything else." Don't be a white knight, it only makes you more tasty to the trolls.

Spoiler

[http://photobucket.com/images/white%20knight]

 

[NoeL]

Huh, I had never thought of it from that angle. Not a bad thought of why is portraying one in such a stereotypical light racist, while another not a problem?

That's possibly the most elegantly I've actually seen the distinction put.

Thanks, both of you.

There is some sexism in games, but not a lot.

If a developer fills their game with tits because they like tits, that's not sexism.
If a developer fills their game with tits because they're targeting males as their primary demographic, that's not sexism.
If a developer fills their game with tits because they don't consider female gamers at all, that is sexism.

Scratch that - there's plenty of sexism in games. Want to know what changed my mind?

Racism.

If there's a game (or movie, book, tv show, cartoon, whatever) that portrays a black person as a bumbling fat-lipped servant we don't care if the creator likes portraying blacks that way or is catering primarily to whites - we call it for what it is: racism. So how is it any different for a creator portraying women as busty, lusty pinup girls - a stereotype of their ideal woman that isn't exactly looked favourably upon by actual women? If there's a distinction there, I'm not seeing it.

So yeah, I guess the game industry (and comic industry, and much of pop culture in general) is quite sexist.


EDIT: Oh, and there's definitely an issue with sexism among gamers - possibly more so than the industry itself.

There is something of a distinction, most males are sexual (and heterosexual) and thus sexy women is targeting that. Adding bumbling black people to a game probably isn't going to draw in attentional whites - the outright racist demographic isn't that high.

I addressed this in a previous post, but to be blunt, racism is as much a product of human nature as the desire to look at sexy women, it's just that we live in an era where the detriment of racism has been brought to the surface and socially shamed (something which appears to be beginning regarding the portrayal of women in gaming).

I think it's also important to distinguish between pornographic (where the characters are for the purpose of arousal) and non-pornographic media. I don't think anyone has a problem with porn (or at least not the same problem) but the problem comes when exclusively female characters in non-pornographic media are portrayed pornographically (i.e. the girl character has her tits and butt out, just because). That's when that kind of portrayal becomes sexist and derogatory.

On another question, how much nerd stuff is actually marketed to ethnic minorities (that's the PC term in my country I believe) anyway? I mean the avengers had Samuel L Jackson, but he's universally loved at this stage. Did they add anything to get the black or Hispanic or Asian audiences specifically?

If this idea of sexism is only targeting one gender, then not only are a lot of things sexist (even outside of video games - make up/clothes companies). It means a lot of things are racist too.

Yes I agree. Games aren't the only medium where this is an issue. But it's not so much about marketing to particular ethnic/sex groups - there's nothing wrong with toy dolls being marketed to girls, for example - but it's how you represent the "out group" in that marketing and the media itself. To use the same example, if Ken and the other male dolls were marketed as 'stinky boys' or 'walking wallets' or whatever for the sake of appealing to girls, that would be sexist. Likewise, if we do a complete role-reversal and have a game where there's plenty of variety of female characters and they're not all designed in a particularly titillating way, yet all the males have pouty lips, six packs and prominent bulges... yeah, it's demeaning. Again, I have no problem with men being portrayed like that for the sake of pornography, but it shouldn't encroach on popular entertainment.

 

[Moth_Monk]

The irony is that all of us here grew up playing video games and still play them now and have we been turned into sexist pigs? NO! NO WE HAVE NOT!

That makes the whole thing rather moot, doesn't it? After all it's only an issue if the games make people sexist, if they don't do that then all one is really doing is trying to interfere with an artist's work.

 

[NoeL]

Not being a popular talking point doesn't necessarily mean that people don't care. I think you're drawing completely the wrong conclusions there. I would argue the simple fact that racism is far less blatant and commonplace in the industry today as reason for why it's not talked about as much as sexism.

Is it less commonplace?

Ethnic Minorities are still the default fodder for Modern Military Shooters among other Genres.
What about simple stereo types such as the Cole Train[Gears of War] and Letitia[Deus Ex]

I don't know if it's actually less commonplace, though I would assume so since I can't think of any particularly egregious examples outside the modern military stuff you mentioned yet sexed-up women is pretty common across the whole spectrum (though fighting games are without a doubt the worst offenders). This is completely anecdotal from my perspective (someone with more time than me should conduct a study) but it seems to be less of a problem today.

We also have a base instinct to serve the in-group at the expense of the out-group (protects the tribe/our genes), and racism is a natural extension of that.

So is targeting a specific demographic but we don't consider that inherently bad.

Because it's not inherently bad. It's not targeting the in-group itself that's problematic, it's negatively portraying the out-group in order to appeal more to the in-group that's problematic.

Fourthly, what comes off as extremist? Calling something you perceive to be sexist 'sexist'? I understand your concern, but I think it's a big step backwards not to call a duck a duck just because there are people that aggressively disagree. Those people will always exist, but have to be overcome if you want any kind of progress on the issue.

I think it's closer to calling all ducks birds. Sure it's technically true, but it comes with other connotations.

Well I've put forward my case that the games industry has an issue with sexism (predominantly sexism against women) and I invite you to show me why I'm wrong, or why you think that statement carries unjustified negative connotations.

 

[Talvrae]

There is some problem of sexisms... I don,t think it's a BIG problem but it's there, particularly on how owmen are portrayed, as eighter generally as damsel in distress or hyper sexualised thing. I just hope for more awesome femelle video game protagonist who arent hyper sexualised

 

[NoeL]

The irony is that all of us here grew up playing video games and still play them now and have we been turned into sexist pigs? NO! NO WE HAVE NOT!

That makes the whole thing rather moot, doesn't it? After all it's only an issue if the games make people sexist, if they don't do that then all one is really doing is trying to interfere with an artist's work.

It's not really ironic, since for one I don't think anybody is claiming that sexism in games causes sexism in gamers (only that it exists, and is arguably reflective of the attitudes of gamers) and for two I think there's quite an unhealthy number of gamers that WOULD qualify as 'sexist pigs'.

Also no, it's not really a moot point either. I think there's merit to be had in pointing out where derogatory portrayals of either sex exist so that we recognise the problem and perhaps change out consumer habits accordingly.

 

[wizzy555]

Likewise, if we do a complete role-reversal and have a game where there's plenty of variety of female characters and they're not all designed in a particularly titillating way, yet all the males have pouty lips, six packs and prominent bulges... yeah, it's demeaning. Again, I have no problem with men being portrayed like that for the sake of pornography, but it shouldn't encroach on popular entertainment.

Well I have bi-tendencies so I can't really say I would have a problem with that.

I think you are somewhat exaggerating the stereotypes however. The most offensive racist and sexist stereotypes have both rescinded in their use over the last century* so comparing the types today to the racist ones of yesterday is somewhat of an exaggeration.

*No video game character gets told to "shut up and make me a sandwich"

 

[Moth_Monk]

Why is it a problem if it doesn't actually make people sexist? What's the point then? Can't you see how inane it would be if we made the same argument about violence?

"No games don't make people act violent but violence in videogames is still a PROBLEM!!"

People would dismiss that^, why not this "sexist thing" too?

 

[wulf3n]

I don't know if it's actually less commonplace, though I would assume so since I can't think of any particularly egregious examples outside the modern military stuff you mentioned yet sexed-up women is pretty common across the whole spectrum (though fighting games are without a doubt the worst offenders). This is completely anecdotal from my perspective (someone with more time than me should conduct a study) but it seems to be less of a problem today.

Looking at the games released in 2013 [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_in_video_gaming] there isn't really that many "sexist" games either.

it's negatively portraying the out-group in order to appeal more to the in-group that's problematic.

I guess it depends on whether or not you consider overly sexualized to be a negative portrayal.

Well I've put forward my case that the games industry has an issue with sexism (predominantly sexism against women) and I invite you to show me why I'm wrong, or why you think that statement carries unjustified negative connotations.

I wouldn't go so far as to say you're wrong, just that calling everyone and everything sexist regardless of their intent, is just going to exacerbate the issue.

 

[Ragsnstitches]

The irony is that all of us here grew up playing video games and still play them now and have we been turned into sexist pigs? NO! NO WE HAVE NOT!

That makes the whole thing rather moot, doesn't it? After all it's only an issue if the games make people sexist, if they don't do that then all one is really doing is trying to interfere with an artist's work.

Fake Male Gamers = People don't care, but those that to tell the guy off.

Fake Girl Gamers = Gamers lose their shit and feel that it is a great offence to their community. Therefore they must be vigilant and prosecute anyone who claims to be female. Heck, why did they need to say they are female? We should just shun them for being attention whores, since identifying yourself as your sex is clearly a grab for male attention.

Male youtube personality: Dime a dozen. Some good, Some bad.

Female Youtube personality: If she has cleavage she's clearly a camwhore and therefore not worth our time. But if she's not easy on the eyes she's an ugly ***** who is clearly too stupid to say anything worth while.

Lets not forget Anita, the stupid scamming whore. Taking peoples money (that was given willingly) how dare she. Clearly she is a con artist and will take the money and leave. Oh, she made some videos. How cute, she thinks she has something to say. WHAT? GAMES ARE NOT PERFECTLY INNOCENT... WHO THE FUCK DOES SHE THINK SHE IS!

Sexism among gamers is pretty fucking pervasive. Whether that feeds into the games, or feeds back into the community is a hard distinction to make. THERE IS A PROBLEM THOUGH!

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Yes, there is sexism in the industry.

sex·ism
/ˈsekˌsizəm/
Noun
Prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.

http://www.giantbomb.com/sleeping-dogs/3030-29441/
http://www.gamecritics.com/brad-gallaway/brink-no-girls-allowed
http://www.penny-arcade.com/report/article/games-with-female-heroes-dont-sell-because-publishers-dont-support-them
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/123139-Devs-Had-to-Demand-Female-Focus-Testers-for-The-Last-of-Us
http://www.penny-arcade.com/report/article/remember-mes-surprising-connection-to-facebook-and-why-its-protagonist-had
http://kotaku.com/investigation-a-video-game-studio-from-hell-511872642
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/123139-Devs-Had-to-Demand-Female-Focus-Testers-for-The-Last-of-Us
http://www.penny-arcade.com/report/article/remember-mes-surprising-connection-to-facebook-and-why-its-protagonist-had
http://popwatch.ew.com/2012/05/01/god-of-war-ascension-multiplayer/ or http://www.gameinformer.com/games/god_of_war_ascension/b/ps3/archive/2012/04/30/sony-unveils-god-of-war-ascensions-multiplayer.aspx
http://uk.gamespot.com/features/fear-of-a-woman-warrior-6404142/
http://www.gamespot.com/news/naughty-dog-insisted-on-female-testers-for-the-last-of-us-6406619
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evI5pF5h8Ck
http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=252 a point made in the form of a joke
http://indigitainment.com/2013/05/08/indigenous-determination-in-game-space/
http://www.vg247.com/2013/03/22/beyond-two-souls-dev-asked-to-show-star-holding-a-gun-on-cover-we-catigorically-refused/
http://www.toybox-games.jp/english0107.html

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7290-Objectification-And-Men
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/the-big-picture/5950-Tropes-vs-MovieBob
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7044-The-Creepy-Cull-of-Female-Protagonists
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kt2VZC1H38
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVTMol1s7w4

Yeah, it's not the most heinous examples of sexism, but by definition it's there. Guess what? Until it goes away, people aren't going to stop talking about it.

Producers, some, but not all, are making decisions that hamper the appearance, and/or agency of female protagonists.

Developers, some, but not all, are making decisions to show women in positions where they have no power really often, making jokes like "Bros before Hoes" (Replaced God of War trophy), cutting women from games, and a plethora of things they weren't perssured to do by the Producers.

Videogame market testers, some, but not all, that don't consider girls into their test groups? Wunner why. Stereotypes that they don't play games?

Some but not all of the gaming community?
http://fatuglyorslutty.com/
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/28269391/ns/technology_and_science-games/t/will-you-feel-home-playstation-home/
http://www.notinthekitchenanymore.com/
Fish in a barrel.

Sexism exists. Women are being treated worse than men on pretty much every level of gaming.

I have a general loathing for the gaming industry for this crap. I recognize that it's not the entire industry but until I know who to blame, there's plenty of loathing to go around. Few companies are exempt because they're generally not hung up on "It's gotta be a guy, or it won't sell" or "She can't have a relationship" or other BS like that.

Now, to be honest, I don't have a huge problem with women looking sexy in a game. I have a problem with who they are, and what they're doing while looking sexy more than anything. (Scratch that, they don't even have to be sexy for those problems to arise) If it's really close to shallow, and nothing, or practically non-existant personality, and nothing? Yeah, I'm gunna get annoyed with that character. How much depends on how severe their treatment is.

I can see how oversexualization can harm perceptions of the industry, though. When a busty, jiggly woman is wearing 3 doritos worth of cloth tethered to her by string and she's not going swimming? Come on.

I don't have a problem with Samus (Cept Other M's version),any version of Lara Croft, Bayonetta, Nilin, Jade, Jill Valentine, Claire Redfield, Mai Shiranui, Cammy, Mileena, Ivy valentine, or pretty much any woman in Metal Gear for the most part.
Hell, best way to have me like a female character is to make her playable, and capable from one end of the game to the other, or give her a reason for being there besides being a plot device. Then it becomes a question of how good the game is.

I'm not particularly opposed to violence against women, I'm bothered, however, by how often it's perpetrated against them vs them perpetrating it. There's a crappy balance there.

Maybe if there was a well balanced amount and variety of women in videogames, topics like these wouldn't arise so much? Women wouldn't be lightning rods of controvercy if their depictions were more frikking diverse, and common. People who talk about women in games would have more to talk about, and more diverse opinions.

While I'm on it, what grinds my gears are the people that only complain about how guys get shafted in games when people are complaining about women being treated unfairly. It's like they save it as ammo to make people shut up more than really caring about it.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comics/critical-miss/9966-The-Counterpoint

 

[NoeL]

Likewise, if we do a complete role-reversal and have a game where there's plenty of variety of female characters and they're not all designed in a particularly titillating way, yet all the males have pouty lips, six packs and prominent bulges... yeah, it's demeaning. Again, I have no problem with men being portrayed like that for the sake of pornography, but it shouldn't encroach on popular entertainment.

Well I have bi-tendencies so I can't really say I would have a problem with that.

You're the exception to the rule. Bear in mind that 90+% of the population doesn't share your sexual preference, then re-evaluate your stance from a more empathetic POV.

I think you are somewhat exaggerating the stereotypes however. The most offensive racist and sexist stereotypes have both rescinded in their use over the last century* so comparing the types today to the racist ones of yesterday is somewhat of an exaggeration.

*No video game character gets told to "shut up and make me a sandwich"

I wouldn't say I'm exaggerating, but I'll agree the use of stereotypes has rescinded over the years. You know why? Because people recognised the problem and challenged those that propagate it. Call it "exaggeration", but you wouldn't disagree that the "male gaze" is still overwhelmingly prominent in games (and most of 'geek culture' too, e.g. comic books, trading cards, fantasy art, action films involving super heroes and/or giant robots, etc.), right? There's still a huge tendency to sex up only the female characters.

 

[Moth_Monk]

So all it really comes down to is "Well uh...some gamers are like sexist and stuff and that's PROBLEMATICZ!!!111"

Newflash people: THERE ARE GOING TO BE SEXISTS NO MATTER WHAT! Video games have nothing to do with it. Some people are sexist towards women regardless. Want to know why? Because some people are ASSHOLES. That's just a sad fact.

 

[generals3]

Scratch that - there's plenty of sexism in games. Want to know what changed my mind?

Racism.

If there's a game (or movie, book, tv show, cartoon, whatever) that portrays a black person as a bumbling fat-lipped servant we don't care if the creator likes portraying blacks that way or is catering primarily to whites - we call it for what it is: racism. So how is it any different for a creator portraying women as busty, lusty pinup girls - a stereotype of their ideal woman that isn't exactly looked favourably upon by actual women? If there's a distinction there, I'm not seeing it.

So yeah, I guess the game industry (and comic industry, and much of pop culture in general) is quite sexist.


EDIT: Oh, and there's definitely an issue with sexism among gamers - possibly more so than the industry itself.

Bad comparison is bad.

Being sexy is in no way equivalent to being a servant with fat lips. One is an ideal a lot of people strive to (i've yet to hear people say "No i don't want to be sexy", mind not everyone puts efforts in it) while being a servant is something everyone doesn't want to be).

Take an example, if games were to stereotype belgians as being brave based on Caesar's quote about us in "De Bello Gallico" I wouldn't complain at all. I'd be enormously happy. But if games portrayed us as Black Hating fuckers based on what we did in Congo i'd be pissed. Why? The first is a positive stereotype and the latter a negative one.

Lastly, there is as much racism as there is sexism in VG's so your point is moot. Characters being white: Fan service. Probably less black/Brown/Yellow/Whateveryouwant protagonists than female protagonists, etc. Skin color is as much used, if not more, to cater to the audience as female sexualization.

And let's not forget: Command and Conquer Generals: Awesome americans fighting against the terrorist middle eastern folks alongside the chinese hackers. And what about all the shooters which like to always frame typical sides as the bad guys and others as the good guys. Still waiting for the Good Middle Eastern people to fight off an evil american invasion.

If you're going to be as strict about racism as you are being with sexism you should be starting a topic about racism right now.

 

[reciprocal]

Sexism IN games? Is it possible to be sexist to fictional people? Is the game enforcing a patriarchal way of life by means of subliminal, liminal and superliminal messaging on real people?

It's so grey I can't draw the line.

 

[wizzy555]

I wouldn't say I'm exaggerating, but I'll agree the use of stereotypes has rescinded over the years. You know why? Because people recognised the problem and challenged those that propagate it. Call it "exaggeration", but you wouldn't disagree that the "male gaze" is still overwhelmingly prominent in games (and most of 'geek culture' too, e.g. comic books, trading cards, fantasy art, action films involving super heroes and/or giant robots, etc.), right? There's still a huge tendency to sex up only the female characters.

While that is arguable sexist - it is not in symmetry therefore demonstrating a discrimination. I wouldn't say it's necessarily as offensive as previous comparisons.

We still have stereotypical racial casting for instance, but not as offensive bumbling roles.

 

[sweetylnumb]

Yes, games have an issue with the depiction of women.

I would hope this is obvious to anyone with two functioning brain cells to rub together.

It's not the specific examples that are the problem. It's the trend that is a problem.

A female character being kidnapped then rescued by a guy? Not a problem. Female characters in Dragon's Crown being ridiculously sexualized? Not a problem.

Every single fucking female character ever either being ridiculously sexualized and/or kidnapped? Yeah, yeah... that's a problem.

Thank you. This is totally true. It wouldn't bother anyone (least of all me) if it wasn't the overwhelming majority.

 

[sweetylnumb]

Every single fucking female character ever either being ridiculously sexualized and/or kidnapped? Yeah, yeah... that's a problem.

But... not every single female character is ridiculously sexualized and/or kidnapped...

So there's no problem! Hooray! We solved gender equality in games!

I'm not sure if you're trying to make a point here or if you're just being cute.

No, not every female character is sexualized or victimized, but you have to search pretty bloody hard to find the ones that aren't.

Even Lara croft, the "hey look you girls can stop complaining now" female protagonist, almost got raped in her first game without massive F size tits. You dont see fucking Kratos almost get raped. Or Mortan freeman. Omg do it publishers, Mortan freeman rape seen. PWEASE