Poll: Anti-BioWare backlash?

[ckriley]

Prior to TOR's release, BioWare was considered one of the best developers out there. Highly respected for the stories they put in their games, and the relative accessibility of the gameplay in said games.

Then came Dragon Age 2 and now TOR. And even though the latter game is successful (which is debatable, I know, but every objective critic and casual fan give TOR high praises) the former had near universal disappointment.

But the backlash I'm seeing today for the developer seems because of TOR. Even with DA2 not meeting expectations, people still held BioWare in high regard. Now it seems people are just hating them for the sake of hating them. As if human nature dictates that you must hate anything that's hyped up or uber successful regardless of if you've even tried the new product or how you once may have felt.

So, I'm just curious. Has your opinion of BioWare changed?

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Anyone who wasn't concerned when EA took over Bioware isn't a student of history. Having watching EA run Origin into the ground, it was hard not to feel jittery when they acquired yet another beloved RPG maker.

TOR is a decent enough game, but it's so stubbornly conservative it's hard to imagine there was much room for things to go badly wrong. DA2 had slap dash elements that have been well covered on this forum, amongst others.

ME3 and DA3 will tell the tale for Bioware.

 

[soren7550]

The only BioWare games I have played are Mass Effect 1 & 2, and Dragon Age: Origins (played the demo for DA2, and I didn't think it was bad). But with Mass Effect 3s upcoming release (which I am so eagerly awaiting), my opinion of BioWare is going down. 'Mass Effect 3 is better with Kinect!' 'Mass Effect 3 has three modes of play!' 'Mass Effect 3 is a great place for new players to jump into the series!' 'Multiplayer!', all of that just pisses me off so much.

 

[go-10]

I like TOR and DA2, granted I would have prefered KOTOR and Dragon Age Origins 2 I still hold high regard for Bioware cuz even if they slip here and there they still make the best RPG's I've played in recent years

 

[Oroboros]

I used to love Bioware, but I think they have been sliding down the slippery slope for quite some time. I liked the Baldur's Gate series, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect I, KOTOR, and Jade Empire, but even those games are not without their flaws. Mass Effect 2 and the Dragon Age series I do not like nearly so much. Bioware seems to constantly be tryingn to rewrite their own series through use of retcons and what many call 'casualization'-simplification of gameplay elements, basically. I suspect a lot of this plays into a desire to appeal to a wider audience, but it comes at a cost of inconsistancy within their own series in tone, plot, and gameplay, sometimes to the point of almost becoming a different genre then when a series started out. In addition, I would say that their 'original' settings of Dragon Age and Mass Effect aren't terribly original, and in fact have a tendancy to be a derrivitive mish-mash of other (In my opinion, better) settings. This is especially painfully obvious with Dragon Age in particualr-anyone who has any experience with Warhammer, Wheel of Time, LoTR, etc can tell you this.

In a nutshell, I stpped liking Bioware because they keep on retconning their settings, changing gameplay elements/genres, and seem to have lost the ability to create original settings of their own.

It's a bit disheartening for me, especially considering how much I liked their older games, but I have pretty much given up hope on them. At least there old games are still out there to be enjoyed though, as well as those of other developers.

 

[Uriain]

While I can appreciate that people like certain styles of game play more then the other. You have to realize that at the end of the day, they are still a company who is looking to make money.

They alter their game play slightly to try and get bigger crowds playing their games.

The changes between Mass Effect 1 and 2 where not THAT great a difference.. they put a streamline on equipment and leaned more towards the fps style of quicker game play compared to the first games rpg style. DAO and DAII did the same thing... made a shift to a quicker, more fluid style of game play (while still maintaining the core of the experience - tactical rpg).

Lastly here, I don't understand this seemingly huge hatred of the direction ME3 is going in. People are up in arms about the Three types of game play, and up in arms about the Multi-player... why? With 3 different types of game play, they are trying to give you the option to play how you want, how is that bad? Multi-player is completely optional, and is there for people who may want to enjoy a solid Bioware game with their friends.

I can understand that this COULD cause things to be done poorly, but to date, I haven't been disappointed with a Bioware game, so maybe its worth to give them the benefit of the doubt until the game (or at least the demo)is out for us to test out??

 

[Epona]

I liked KOTOR and Mass Effect 1. However, their replay value is limited and as a result could never finish KOTOR more than once and Mass Effect twice. Dragon Age Origins wasn't really that good, I played through it once but I struggled to finish it. Dragon Age 2 was horrible, never got too far into it before deciding it wasn't for me and also realizing it was made for controllers.

Hint Bioware: If you make a game for consoles and don't alter it for PC's (like giving us a top down perspective), atleast give us controller support.

Mass Effect 2 was more shooter, less RPG and so I didn't play it long. Mass Effect 3 sounds like the ultimate sell out and TOR is just another MMO.

People go on and on about Bioware's stories. I just don't see it. Their stories are mediocre and all their games (that I have played) are laid out the same. At some point, you always get to choose between 3 places to go. You only get to choose the order. That's a Bioware game.

 

[Sabertooth]

How can a company that has to make money in order to exist, "sells out"? I never really understood that line of though.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

How can a company that has to make money in order to exist, "sells out"? I never really understood that line of though.

Presumably the accusation is that they have sacrificed all artistic integrity in order to maximize profit. This, of course, assumes that profits are automatically maximized via the sacrifice of all artistic integrity, which is seldom the case.

 

[Sabertooth]

How can a company that has to make money in order to exist, "sells out"? I never really understood that line of though.

Presumably the accusation is that they have sacrificed all artistic integrity in order to maximize profit. This, of course, assumes that profits are automatically maximized via the sacrifice of all artistic integrity, which is seldom the case.

Well even so, it has people who have jobs that depend on the success of their products. It´s not a charity case. They have to sell their products to the most people available, lest people loose their jobs.

Now I´m not defending them or attack them. I´m just saying that telling a company that functions on a profit basis, that it has "sold out" reeks of elitism to me. Think their games suck? Ok fine, but don´t act all pissy when the game has good sales.

 

[Uriain]

I used to love Bioware, but I think they have been sliding down the slippery slope for quite some time. I liked the Baldur's Gate series, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect I, KOTOR, and Jade Empire, but even those games are not without their flaws. Mass Effect 2 and the Dragon Age series I do not like nearly so much. Bioware seems to constantly be tryingn to rewrite their own series through use of retcons and what many call 'casualization'-simplification of gameplay elements, basically. I suspect a lot of this plays into a desire to appeal to a wider audience, but it comes at a cost of inconsistancy within their own series in tone, plot, and gameplay, sometimes to the point of almost becoming a different genre then when a series started out. In addition, I would say that their 'original' settings of Dragon Age and Mass Effect aren't terribly original, and in fact have a tendancy to be a derrivitive mish-mash of other (In my opinion, better) settings. This is especially painfully obvious with Dragon Age in particualr-anyone who has any experience with Warhammer, Wheel of Time, LoTR, etc can tell you this.

In a nutshell, I stpped liking Bioware because they keep on retconning their settings, changing gameplay elements/genres, and seem to have lost the ability to create original settings of their own.

It's a bit disheartening for me, especially considering how much I liked their older games, but I have pretty much given up hope on them. At least there old games are still out there to be enjoyed though, as well as those of other developers.

sorry to double post here, but we posted apparently at the same time, and I have a couple of issues with your comments.

While its perfectly fine to not like (using your term) 'casualization' in games, that trend is not new to the industry, as games in General (minus a clear few like Ninja Gaiden/Demon Souls etc) have also been 'casualization' throughout the last 5-10 years. To put in perspective.. Contra as a kid (SNES) was bloody hard. Go play it now, its still bloody hard. There is a vast majority of games which are effected by this 'casualization'.

Secondly, your initial comments where how you really enjoyed games like NWN, Baldurs Gate, Jade Empire etc, but then say you didnt like ME2/DA series because they are copying other material. To me, that seems a bit of a catch 22, as NWN and Baldur's gate had heavy ties with the fantasy novels/D&D at the time.

I guess my main point I am trying to make is this. All of these games have some sort of "link" to other books/movies/games/lore.. So the "original settings of their own" I personally find to be a bit of a awkward statement, as (at least from my perspective) Jade Empire is really their biggest "standalone" title from the ones you listed.

Now dont get me wrong. If you dont like the games, that is totally fine.. I just think that the discussion of the REASONS for not liking or liking something is a good thing to discuss

 

[Epona]

How can a company that has to make money in order to exist, "sells out"? I never really understood that line of though.

Well, it's a good thing I know how to use Google. You should try it. Here's how:

- Open a new tab
- go to https://www.google.com/
- in the search box type "sell out"

Since I am nice though and want to make it easier for you, I will just drop the definition here:

Anyone who sacrifices artistic integrity in an effort to become more successful or popular (generally in music); someone who forgets their roots.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sell%20out

You're welcome.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Well even so, it has people who have jobs that depend on the success of their products. It´s not a charity case. They have to sell their products to the most people available, lest people loose their jobs.

Now I´m not defending them or attack them. I´m just saying that telling a company that functions on a profit basis, that it has "sold out" reeks of elitism to me. Think their games suck? Ok fine, but don´t act all pissy when the game has good sales.

Oh don't get me wrong, I think it's a somewhat ridiculous accusation. I was just trying to answer your question.

I think people oft-times get a little over-enthused about criticism on this and other forums.

http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-7-stupidest-things-that-make-people-proud/

Types 4-7 are quite abundant here.

 

[Sabertooth]

How can a company that has to make money in order to exist, "sells out"? I never really understood that line of though.

Well, it's a good thing I know how to use Google. You should try it. Here's how:

- Open a new tab
- go to https://www.google.com/
- in the search box type "sell out"

Since I am nice though and want to make it easier for you, I will just drop the definition here:

Anyone who sacrifices artistic integrity in an effort to become more successful or popular (generally in music); someone who forgets their roots.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sell%20out

You're welcome.

Instead of trying to be funny, you should read the other post I made.

 

[Epona]

How can a company that has to make money in order to exist, "sells out"? I never really understood that line of though.

Presumably the accusation is that they have sacrificed all artistic integrity in order to maximize profit. This, of course, assumes that profits are automatically maximized via the sacrifice of all artistic integrity, which is seldom the case.

Well even so, it has people who have jobs that depend on the success of their products. It´s not a charity case. They have to sell their products to the most people available, lest people loose their jobs.

Now I´m not defending them or attack them. I´m just saying that telling a company that functions on a profit basis, that it has "sold out" reeks of elitism to me. Think their games suck? Ok fine, but don´t act all pissy when the game has good sales.

Why do people argue that since a business needs to make money, anything goes?

 

[Sabertooth]

How can a company that has to make money in order to exist, "sells out"? I never really understood that line of though.

Presumably the accusation is that they have sacrificed all artistic integrity in order to maximize profit. This, of course, assumes that profits are automatically maximized via the sacrifice of all artistic integrity, which is seldom the case.

Well even so, it has people who have jobs that depend on the success of their products. It´s not a charity case. They have to sell their products to the most people available, lest people loose their jobs.

Now I´m not defending them or attack them. I´m just saying that telling a company that functions on a profit basis, that it has "sold out" reeks of elitism to me. Think their games suck? Ok fine, but don´t act all pissy when the game has good sales.

Why do people argue that since a business needs to make money, anything goes?

Because as much as you like to think otherwise, that´s real life for you.

 

[Epona]

How can a company that has to make money in order to exist, "sells out"? I never really understood that line of though.

Well, it's a good thing I know how to use Google. You should try it. Here's how:

- Open a new tab
- go to https://www.google.com/
- in the search box type "sell out"

Since I am nice though and want to make it easier for you, I will just drop the definition here:

Anyone who sacrifices artistic integrity in an effort to become more successful or popular (generally in music); someone who forgets their roots.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sell%20out

You're welcome.

Instead of trying to be funny, you should read the other post I made.

I did and I wonder how naive you really are. Well, they must make money so they are permitted to do anything to reach that goal.

ME3 is part of a trilogy, to take the third game and shift the goalpost towards Kinect and multiplayer is just wrong. DA2 went in the wrong direction too considering it was the second game in a series designed to BRING BACK CLASSIC PC RPG GAMEPLAY. Bioware: "Let's take a series made for PC's and make the sequel for consoles and let's disable controller support for PC gamers making the console version the superior one".

There's more to it that just "they need to make money".


Need I mention that instead of making KOTOR 3, they make a fuckin' MMO because that's where the money is?

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Why do people argue that since a business needs to make money, anything goes?

Surely when we're talking about a video game company, their decision to make game type A instead of game type B should be valid. We're not talking about them pumping toxic waste into our drinking water or anything. We're talking about gradients of variation in different RPGs.

What do you consider Bioware's "roots"?

How do you consider them to have abandoned said roots?

 

[Sabertooth]

How can a company that has to make money in order to exist, "sells out"? I never really understood that line of though.

Well, it's a good thing I know how to use Google. You should try it. Here's how:

- Open a new tab
- go to https://www.google.com/
- in the search box type "sell out"

Since I am nice though and want to make it easier for you, I will just drop the definition here:

Anyone who sacrifices artistic integrity in an effort to become more successful or popular (generally in music); someone who forgets their roots.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sell%20out

You're welcome.

Instead of trying to be funny, you should read the other post I made.

I did and I wonder how naive you really are. Well, they must make money so they are permitted to do anything to reach that goal.

ME3 is part of a trilogy, to take the third game and shift the goalpost towards Kinect and multiplayer is just wrong. DA2 went in the wrong direction too considering it was the second game in a series designed to BRING BACK CLASSIC PC RPG GAMEPLAY. Bioware: "Let's take a series made for PC's and make the sequel for consoles and let's disable controller support for PC gamers making the console version the superior one".

There's more to it that just "they need to make money".

You call it being "naive" I call not being buthurted about trivial things. You can always try to run your own business tho, catering only to fans, and see how far it goes before finally collapsing.